Somalia Forever

[Blessed]

^^Money knows no religion dhee.

 

Although I am not sure your idea that everyone wants the correct sharia is true. I would argue that people want their version of Sharia, which is why they have so much mess as a result. Compare the Sharia law of Iran, Malaysia, Neigeria and any other country which claims to rule by sharia and tell me, really is any of them sharia compliant, or even close enough for us as Muslim to put our eggs in their basket.

Ibts, people tribal in their interpretations of Islam- in that majority Iranis follow a set of interpretations, Saudis and most Khaleej etc.. The Pakistanis , I think will have problems. For the none Muslims most of the personal laws wouldn't apply directly to them anyway. I believe every group of people can come to an agreement that works for them. I think it should be up to the culimaa, hada we have politicians and gaalo that are running the show and that is why we have problems. Teeda kale, we're not perfect and this world is not meant to be perfect so it will never be completely perfect unlless Allah wants it to be. The Quran says that Allah will establish the sharia if we believe and work for it but Muslims today, we just complain and then turn our backs on the deen and look for alternatives. This is what's happening with Somalis now. We're faced with the fitnah of Al Shabaab and all of a sudden it's 'lets take Islam out of the political sphere!' Is there no Islamic alternative?

 

I personally, would rather live in a filtered down version as I am now than to live under a kufr system which alienates me.

 

As for the comparison of the countries that are culturally similar, you bring about valid similarities between Saudi and Iraq under repressive systems of governance. And as I'm sure you've read, and hopefully understood, in my earlier posts, that I don't side with either and I am not for repression of any kind Islamic or otherwise. The confusion here is that when I mention secularism, people jump the gun and assume I'm talking about secularization as both do not offer the same conclusion to the subject of religion in society.

I was responding to the original article where the author uses examples of none Muslim countries as ideal secular states. Excuse me but if India, France and Ethiopia are beacons of the secular system - bada ha kula dhaco. More often than not people present western style secular / democratic states as the absolute ideal and dismiss anything remotely Islamic. There has been positive outcomes of sharia lead states, some though not perfect exist today. I see your point but I hope you appreciate that the story till now has been one sided.

 

However, in my opinion, a society based on the entire reasoning that certain things must be made illegal because God ordained it without leaving the choice to the individual (after all it is they who are going to hell) is not somewhere I personally would live in. I am for the opinion to leave the judging to God and leave religiosity (or the lack of) to the individual. Period. I do not like the forcing of people into something they do not want, whether its Sharia or otherwise. If the greater Somali populace votes for a form of Sharia, then nothing I can say or do would matter because the people want it... However from what I can tell from these forums is that there is a mixed opinion and there is no definite consensus on the matter.

Horta marka hore- I never get this argument of God ordained laws being bad? Most contemporary laws originate from God or religious scriptures.

 

The the approach to this will depend on the culture and experiences of the society concerned. The trouble with a lot of these articles is that they are written by people who are out of touch with the Muslim world. People who are exposed to so much propaganda against the sharia and only know about western political ideals that they have a one tunnel vision about what makes an ideal political system for people living in another culture. They look at the dictatorships, the corruption, the repression and ignorance and conclude that Islam is the problem. Well these same problems exists with other systems, even the ones you're advocating for, so lets stop blaming Islam and look at it from another angle.

 

Many countries happily exist under different systems, laws and values as long as these are based on their own believes / ideals and way of life and as such most Muslims have no problem with the banning of alcohol and all the major xaraams. Other issues, minor sins and can be debated, discussed and decided on by the shura council- the sharia allows for this . Every country has laws and a judical system that judges and punishes individuals for their crimes- why is it only a problem when these laws are prescribed by Allah?

 

I agree that any systems that petty meddling private affairs will eventually break down or radicalise people but again this isn't only happening in the Muslim world..

 

 

Are they driving your taxis, serving you shawarmas and cleaning up after you?

LoL. No, but that's beside the point. They choose to move to and be governed under a sharia state because the quality of life is good. Sharia is not always oppression, repression, backward or 'get me out of here' bad..

[ailamos]

weeyheey yaa Tuujiye you're still here? beenta iska daaf otherwise you're no different than inadeerta Ayaan Hirsi... she spews lies and assumptions that are baseless and cannot be backed up, and as we will see below you do the exact same but in the opposite direction:

 

Originally posted by Tuujiye:

 

Saaxiib waxaan secular iyo qurafaadka aad ku dhuumaneysid iska dhaaf.. the only reason aad u rabtid noloshaas xaaraanta ah is to live the life aad ku halaagtamtay...

hmmm... how do you know that I want "nolosha xaraamta ah"? you have no concrete reasons do you awoowe aside from your speculations?

 

diintaadi ayaad ka tagtay markaas buu buufis kugu dhacay.. you came here looking for a reason and found few young people oo aqoontooda diinta daciif tahay markaas baad isku qabtay in aad cilmaani tahay.....

all I read is blah, blah, blah... diintayda waan ogahay laakin waxaan umalayna inaad adiga aqoonin diintaada...

 

saaxiib dadka aad aqoontooda iyo respectigooda aad maanta raacday oo aad naftaada u dhiibatay waa dad adiga wiligaa kuu arki doonaa wax ka hooseeya...

that's an interesting notion, it's people like you who try to instigate and create walls yaa Tuujiye... just try to resist the voices in your head, it'll be better for you...

 

umad aan nijaasada iska dhaqin oo wax kaste xalaaleystay ayaad dhahday maanta waa dad aqoon yahan ah... don't blame your problems iyo your weak qalbi the rest of the muslim world saaxiib ee sida isku dhaam waad liidataayee...

you really are a bigot arent you? first you talk about respecting other diins and now this... anyway, the Muslim world has it's problems like the Western world, but it's people like you who try "bigot-your-way" out of those problems by sweeping them under the rug and pretending they don't exist... in the West people face their problems with protests, blogs, organizations etc. etc. and I would like something of the same in the Muslim world, but it's people like you who oppose this...

 

I have great respect for people with a balanced view like Ibtisam or Blessed but it's people like you awoowe with your twisted one-sided thoughts that I have a problem with

 

I asked you a simple question and you said yes that you want to live under a secular government which you think will let you be as gaal as you could be..but the sad part is, you are somalian and you will never have that life....

Firstly, I am Somali not Somalian so let's get that straight secondly, could you answer the simple question as to why you assume I am a gaal? No one has effectively answered that question, so the balls in your court...

 

I been following you and other gaalo in SOL for sometime now and everyone sees that..and my goal was to show people your true iner intention.... you all run away from the truth.... your all cofused and need help and have a little knowledge of what ever you believe too...

hahahaha.. you amuse me awoowe with your self-righteousness, why do you think we "gaalo" are confused? Because we don't have the same view as you?

 

saaxiib since aad isiisay weynaan aan kaa weynahay somalida waxee ku maah maahday "nin gu' kaa weyn, kaa waayo aragsan" I live next to gaalo adiga oo kale ahi and work with them..and yes waa somali.... wax macno iyo xigmad lehina kuma hadlaan... bax Fox news hoos fadhiiso and enjoy your Glen Beck stories...

If one would look at what you have been saying Tuujiye, you're not any different than a Muslim version of Glen Beck and Co. you call other infidels and point fingers just because they don't think the same way you do...

[ailamos]

Originally posted by Blessed.*:

The Quran says that Allah will establish the sharia if we believe and work for it but Muslims today, we just complain and then turn our backs on the deen and look for alternatives. This is what's happening with Somalis now. We're faced with the fitnah of Al Shabaab and all of a sudden it's 'lets take Islam out of the political sphere!' Is there no Islamic alternative?

Extremism has certainly caused the call for religion to be taken out the sphere of governance, I agree it's not a fair way to go about it due to the action of "a few bad apples" as people say.

 

However, I must ask both you Blessed and Ibti, what benefits does a Sharia system have that a Secular one does not?

 

I personally, would rather live in a filtered down version as I am now than to live under a kufr system which alienates me.

I have no problems with a filtered down version either, I lived in one for several years, but what is a kufr system? and how does it alienate you?

 

More often than not people present western style secular / democratic states as the absolute ideal and dismiss anything remotely Islamic. There has been positive outcomes of sharia lead states, some though not perfect exist today. I see your point but I hope you appreciate that the story till now has been one sided.

It definitely is one sided, the word "Sharia" scares the sh*t out of the white man and they reject it outright just as my awoowe Tuujiye rejects the secular system outright. There is no balance. Although I have always advocated a secular system of governance, I have never advocated taking religion completely out of the public sphere nor the forced secularization of a people who wish to live religiously. I didn't know much about the Malaysian system until Norfsky pointed it out to me and after some research I found that it's a fair and balanced system in a multi-ethnic, multi-religious country that allows the individual federal states to decides whether or not they should apply Sharia and the Sharia only applies to Muslims. I like that, I really do because people are not forced into what they don't want. Although the government interference over the word 'Allah' earlier this year was a messed up move, the country generally lives up to its ideals. Then there is Turkey which is 98% Muslim and has a secular government, but even so, Christians in that country are severely persecuted so the protection of the rights of minorities has certainly failed in that case. So you see a secular country has failed in the protection of minorities where a majority Muslim country with a dualistic system has succeeded.

 

The trouble with a lot of these articles is that they are written by people who are out of touch with the Muslim world. People who are exposed to so much propaganda against the sharia and only know about western political ideals that they have a one tunnel vision about what makes an ideal political system for people living in another culture. They look at the dictatorships, the corruption, the repression and ignorance and conclude that Islam is the problem.

I don't think Islam in itself is the problem, but you must admit that it has been and still is used as a tool of subjugation and violence. I think there is a need for the Ummah to deeply reflect on injustices committed in the name of Islam and rebel against the status quo because the current leadership in many countries have been in power for decades. However this is easily said than done as there are severe curbs on any expression that criticizes the government in many countries.

[Khayr]

Blessed wrote:

 

how do we reconcile this with secular ideals that oppose these fundamental tenets of the Quran?

to which ailamos wrote back:

 

A very good question, the answer to which I currently do not have and would like to know if someone else does.

Ailamos, you already picked a side which you have been advocating for. The world is built on hierarchies (top - low, old-young, rich-poor, best-worst etc.) and therefor, you can not have to equal things. Secularism advocates for the total eradication of religion by seperating reality from religion, religion in the marketplace from religion in the home etc. Whereas religion aims to include GOD in everything, be it the marketplace, the workplace or the bedroom etc. When there is a conflict between the two (which is almost always) you have to pick a side and secularism doesn't accept anything that is a threat to its existence (hence why niqabs are being called for banning, you can't have polygamous marriages, you can't preach certains parts of the deen related to gender issues - openly etc). You can't reconcile the two diametrically opposed world views. Everyday, you are being asked to make a choice. For those that don't agree, I dare you to have a conversation with your classmates or coworkers about the issue of khaneeism in Islam and the punishment for it (and tell them that you believe in the punishment for it because that is what Islam says) and see what can of reaction you receive or reprecussions come your way.

[Abu-Salman]

against the status quo because the current leadership in many countries have been in power for decades. However this is easily said than done as there are severe curbs on any expression that criticizes the government in many countries.

A leadership constantly shored up with Western support, especially in its most oppressive aspects

(denial of most basic rights, large-scale massacres and atrocities etc)...

 

 

Still, all systems of law ultimately derivate from revealed religions or other beliefs (eg French laws could be traced back to their Pagan Roman roots and Catholicism), it is called sources of law as no system of morality was created and evolved in a vacuum.

 

Specifically, your reserves have more to do with the "Islam holding us back from progress" theme, already articulated by many with limited authentic islamic knowledge (as well as insight into Western history and societies).

 

Thus, acquainting yourself with Arabic, Ahaadith and tafaseers at your local Islamic centre/Mosque should be your first priority, while, more generally, analysing issues in depth and in a systematic, unbiased fashion as prevention against all sorts of self-contradictions...

 

 

PS: sorry if it comes as condescending but this is a sincere suggestion after analysing your posts, eg worrying about interferences in Shariah while many Aayahs and ahaadeeths explicitely uphold individual privacy, this is just one out of many points I invite you to dig a little deeper into it...

[ailamos]

Originally posted by Abu-Salman:

A leadership constantly shored up with Western support, especially in its most oppressive aspects

(denial of most basic rights, large-scale massacres and atrocities etc)...

The hypocrisy and interference of the West is undeniable, but at the same time the muted acceptance and hypocrisy of the Muslims is undeniable either.

 

I don't think one has to be a first-class scholar in order to see the current state of disintegration of the Muslim world. I'm not vehemently anti-Islamic, but I am for more self-criticism in the Muslim world instead of the blind clenching of religious ideals that may not exist.

 

Anyway, thanks for the invitation ya Abu Salman and no offence taken, I think your intentions are good

[Tuujiye]

quote:

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saaxiib dadka aad aqoontooda iyo respectigooda aad maanta raacday oo aad naftaada u dhiibatay waa dad adiga wiligaa kuu arki doonaa wax ka hooseeya...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

that's an interesting notion, it's people like you who try to instigate and create walls yaa Tuujiye... just try to resist the voices in your head, it'll be better for you...

looool is this waxa adiga lagugu gaaleeyey? "listen simpa, listen to the voices" ayaa lagugu dhahay yaah lool

 

Ailamos Bellesed and Ibti are two muslim girls who know their faith well laakiin adiga diin dhan maba lihid saaxiib and not only in aadan leheen oo aad gaal tahay, but you are living with confused thoughts..

 

I talk straight and real with you and I was done with this logic talks with you but iinsha allah they will get thru you..laakiin yaa Ailamos, runta ha nicin... your not smart as you think you are saaxiib and anaga waxa aan kuu sheegeyno waa runta....

 

Your a gaal who wants a secular system for somalia because of your own interest!! thats all what this is about..thats waxa aad maanta dhan la murmeysid...we all know that! what else do you want to talk about? lool

 

 

Wareer Badanaa!!!

[ailamos]

Originally posted by Tuujiye:

looool is this waxa adiga lagugu gaaleeyey? "listen simpa, listen to the voices" ayaa lagugu dhahay yaah lool

 

Ailamos Bellesed and Ibti are two muslim girls who know their faith well laakiin adiga diin dhan maba lihid saaxiib and not only in aadan leheen oo aad gaal tahay, but you are living with confused thoughts..

 

I talk straight and real with you and I was done with this logic talks with you but iinsha allah they will get thru you..laakiin yaa Ailamos, runta ha nicin... your not smart as you think you are saaxiib and anaga waxa aan kuu sheegeyno waa runta....

 

Your a gaal who wants a secular system for somalia because of your own interest!! thats all what this is about..thats waxa aad maanta dhan la murmeysid...we all know that! what else do you want to talk about? lool

 

 

Wareer Badanaa!!!

You're "straight and real" talk is quite evident awoowe as you continue to evade the issue and start with accusations and name-calling

[Khayr]

Your a gaal who wants a secular system for somalia

because of your own interest!!

thats all what this is about..

That is exactly what its all about - self interest motivation to turn Somalia into a Secular state again (like in the Siyad Barre days, looking all european and adopting euro culture). Ailamos and B are just not being honest with themselves. They want a Somalia that advocates for what is in their hearts - secular liberal ideals, that come into conflict with our deen and way of life.

[Chocolate and Honey]

LOL! The only two people who raised good points happened to be Blessed and Ibti. Girls Rule!

Speaking of Securalism. I was watching this Channel I rarely watch. There was this reality show about the life of one somewhat famous black actor. This actor and his wife run their household as if it's part of a expectacular Church event. They break out with sermons and the Lord is thanked,praised,remembered, and mentioned atleast once every nanosecond. Anyhoo, his wife who happens to be a "minister" went to an acting class where she practiced long French kissing scenes with a complete stranger, gave a SERMON about the good Lord's blessing to a bunch of DRUNKEN ladies who were in urgent need of a good SERMON, went shopping with her pregnant daughter who is living with her boyfriend all in one day. And a thought occured to me: if this is what SECULARISM has done to Christianity, I pray that day NEVER comes for us.

[ailamos]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

LOL! The only two people who raised good points happened to be Blessed and Ibti. Girls Rule!

 

Anyhoo, his wife who happens to be a "minister" went to an acting class where she practiced long French kissing scenes with a complete stranger, gave a SERMON about the good Lord's blessing to a bunch of DRUNKEN ladies who were in urgent need of a good SERMON, went shopping with her pregnant daughter who is living with her boyfriend all in one day.

Sounds like a minister at a McChurch and as corrupt as Pat Robertson..

[Chocolate and Honey]

No, no not corrupt. Walahi, their sencerity broke my heart.I mean most Christians I know nowdays beleive there is NOTHING you can't do as long as you profess Jesus to be your savior. No Sir, no action is needed. Just say the word! Amen. And I'm noticing that mentality around SOL nowdays, nooh. As in, some people will curse, insult and go against the main pillars of diinta and they'll also insist on being a Muslim. As if, saying it makes it so.

Pstt... Did you watch the first Pirate Episode of Law&Order, where the African America dude playing West African dude playing East African dude(If you watch TROPICAL THUNDER you'll get this joke!) was like(when his convert white girlfriend asked him why were they drinking when Alcohol was forbidden)"My father was once told, once the alcohol touches your lips Allah will turn it into water."!

[Blessed]

^LOL.

 

I have no problems with a filtered down version either, I lived in one for several years, but what is a kufr system? and how does it alienate you?

In sum it's a system that goes against the principles of the sharia. I grew up in Britain for instance and it's not an easy place for Muslims. It's a system that is not concerned with God or religiosity which makes it a little harder for you to practice your faith. More so when parts of your faith are deemed to go against it's secular (and even christian) believes. I'm not saying Britain should be a sharia state, just explaining why I prefer to live in a Muslim country where you hear the adhan at the mall and you have a prayer hall in every corner, for example.

 

There's also no honour or barakah in living in a place where you because of your faith are constantly having to justify yourself, fight for your basic rights and listen to / read nonesense being said / written about you on a daily basis.

 

However, I must ask both you Blessed and Ibti, what benefits does a Sharia system have that a Secular one does not?

Can I ask what a secular system has over a sharia one.. for Muslims that is?

 

Being a believer the sharia for me is a natural state which is conducive to my way of life. It's Allahs Hikmah.

 

Secondly, I don't think the sharia limits human developmemt in any way. The 'Islamic Golden age' saw Muslims contribute so much to the development of ideas and inventions in many fields, these were often inspired by the Quran and sunnah and was during the time of a khilafa. I don't know where we went wrong, that's something I need to investigate..

[BUKURR]

Khayr: That is exactly what its all about - self interest motivation to turn Somalia into a Secular state again (like in the Siyad Barre days, looking all european and adopting euro culture). Ailamos and B are just not being honest with themselves. They want a Somalia that advocates for what is in their hearts - secular liberal ideals, that come into conflict with our deen and way of life.

 

Is it hard for you to understand that human beings have choice, and if that choice happens to be in odd with yours how would you deal with it? If you look deep into how this universe is managed -by whoever you believe in, you will see the live and let live concept is rooted. Why God gave us a choice if we cannot act upon, be it right or wrong.

 

I read many responses that see the negative side of secularism, and based on that are standing against it, its their personal choice and nothing wrong with that anyone would say, but the problem arises when you find out, these same people are making a choice for you without your even approval of it, and suddenly you're living by not how you would like to live but by others choice.

 

There is a very simple logic that is involved: How can a matter that you've the freedom to take it or leave it, how that can become a law that all including the ones who didn't accept it must abide to?

 

The Quran tells us, that God created Adam when the angels didn't want it to happen because of the choices human beings are going to make, but as known God argues back that they know little, and goes forward with it. I as a humble observer, see that as a GOD given freedom of choice, and this upholds as long as I am not intruding into other borders of choice.

 

C&H- girls always rule!

[ailamos]

Originally posted by chocolate & honey:

Pstt... Did you watch the first Pirate Episode of Law&Order, where the African America dude playing West African dude playing East African dude(If you watch TROPICAL THUNDER you'll get this joke!) was like(when his convert white girlfriend asked him why were they drinking when Alcohol was forbidden)"My father was once told, once the alcohol touches your lips Allah will turn it into water."! [/QB]

hahaha... I did watch Tropic Thunder, that quote was classic "I know who I am, I'm a dude playing a dude, disguised as another dude"...

LOL@"My father was once told, once the alcohol touches your lips Allah will turn it into water"... hollywood bullsh*t at it's best... :rolleyes:

 

Originally posted by Blessed.*:

In sum it's a system that goes against the principles of the sharia. I grew up in Britain for instance and it's not an easy place for Muslims. It's a system that is not concerned with God or religiosity which makes it a little harder for you to practice your faith. More so when parts of your faith are deemed to go against it's secular (and even christian) believes. I'm not saying Britain should be a sharia state, just explaining why I prefer to live in a Muslim country where you hear the adhan at the mall and you have a prayer hall in every corner, for example.

That is true, when I moved to the West, one of the first things I started to miss were the echos of the athaan.

 

Originally posted by Blessed.*:

Can I ask what a secular system has over a sharia one.. for Muslims that is?

I think from a Muslim point of view a secular system offers the same basic provisions as a Shariah system, e.g. one can build a mosque, pray five times, buy halal, pay zakat, wear whatever one wants, etc etc. However, the secularity of a country is not an entirely objective thing, it is indeed influenced by the local traditions. For example, a country that is overwhelmingly Christian such as Switzerland and is based on secular governance has the ability to curb the freedom of worship of many of its citizens who constitute the Muslim minority by controlling the heights of minarets and disallowing the athaan. While on the other hand the same is true for a secular Muslim nation such as Turkey where the Christians there are persecuted because of their faith. The only difference is that in Switzerland, even though the majority of the (Christian) country voted in a referendum to ban minarets, their secular government resists its implementation because the ban "infringes guaranteed international human rights and contradicts the core values of the Swiss Federal Constitution", furthermore the Swiss parliament "recommended (by 132 to 51 votes and 11 abstentions) in spring of 2009 that the Swiss people reject the minaret ban initiative". I do think secular Western countries are being hypocritical with their proclaimed "freedom of religion" by allowing Church bells and disallowing the athaan, but like I said earlier secularism is a subjective thing. My concern is the rights of minorities, if a certain system of Sharia can guarantee in practice the protection of those rights, then I certainly have no problem with it, such as the Malaysian model.

 

Originally posted by Blessed.*:

Secondly, I don't think the sharia limits human developmemt in any way. The 'Islamic Golden age' saw Muslims contribute so much to the development of ideas and inventions in many fields, these were often inspired by the Quran and sunnah and was during the time of a khilafa. I don't know where we went wrong, that's something I need to investigate..

I don't know what went wrong either, the Islam's golden age was indeed the one of the greatest periods the world has ever witnessed. It's a question with a very complicated answer since there were parallel dynasties in different places... plus loss of Al-Andalus, the Crusades, Mongol invasions, and internal conflict all could have contributed...