Tariq Ramadan-Audio Lectures/RIS-The Muslim Spiritual Identity

[Ameen]

Originally posted by Taliban:

I am with you; both zakat and capital punishment are Allah's commandments.

It is clear that we stand on the same side of the line

 

may Allah (alone) be worshipped

[N.O.R.F]

TR is making Muslims 'think' and thinking is always a good thing.

 

Now can one of you put together a half decent piece to counter TR's stance on Hudud laws and the suspension of them? This thread is all over the place at the moment.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Taliban:

Ramadan's apologists would argue your example isn't valid. They would argue salat, zakat or hajj isn't hudud; it's something between a Muslim and Allah. However, I am with you; both zakat and capital punishment are Allah's commandments.

Taliban,

Zakat is not like other spiritual acts because if you abstain from paying it you are depriving others who need it to stay afloat. Again, you are using labels and assuming things without taking a moment to reflect.

 

Zakat is a bad example because it is part of the five basic pillars of Islam, hudud is not. If you are able to pay Zakat then you have to pay it, nothing else to discuss! But with hudud, there are a lot of conditions and if they are not met then the whole point of the punishment is lost. When the main purpose is lost, it becomes a tool for oppression and injustice.

 

Perhaps a much better example would be polygamy. It is a right, but a right without responsibilities is a nothing but a calamity. If you ignore the conditions that are set for this right (polygamy) to be practiced, then it becomes something that is loathed. Some men, especially Somalis, are happy to take full advantage of the right to become polygamous but neglect the responsibilities that are attached to it ("...marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four;BUT if you fear that you will not do justice between them, then marry only one or what your right hands possess: this is more proper that YOU MAY NOT DEVIATE FROM THE RIGHT COURSE" An-Nisa verse 3). By the look of things, it seems most people stop reading this verse when they reach the part in bold.

 

A man who has four wives, but does not provide for them and their children becomes an irresponsible husband and father. People who see his ilk eventually hate the thought of being polygamous. Ask any Somali female what she thinks of polygamy and she will cringe; not because she is forbidding what Allah SWT has made lawful (perhaps some few do consciously) but it is often because she will associate polygamy with neglect and maltreatment. The same thing is happening in some Muslim countries that apply hudud, since the goverments don't follow the basic requirements that ought to be fulfilled, it becomes despised by all non-Muslims and many Muslims will reject it in their hearts.

[Pi]

Viking, dude, don't bother educating Telly-Tubby Taliban about Islam. Haddad never adds anything insightful to a discussion. Vapid one-liners are his speciality.

[ElPunto]

^Good points Viking. Personally, I wouldn't favour a ban on capital punishement in the cases on cold-blooded murder. But I think a better sense of Hudood laws would be a good starting for more debate. My understanding of it is definitely limited.

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Northerner:

Now can one of you put together a half decent piece to counter TR's stance on Hudud laws and the suspension of them?

There's nothing to counter, because Tariq Ramadan's stance is faulty. His example of Caliph Omar's temporary suspension of a hudud is invalid; there was caliphate in Caliph Omar's era, no so in Tariq Ramadan's era.

[N.O.R.F]

There's nothing to counter, because Tariq Ramadan's stance is faulty

How so?

 

His example of Caliph Omar's temporary suspension of a hudud is invalid

Why so?

 

Are we to just take your word for it Afgani?