Tariq Ramadan-Audio Lectures/RIS-The Muslim Spiritual Identity

[A.J. Timacadeh]

Geel Jire, you are right about some of the things that you have said i.e the unislamic paying of taxes to the west but you can actually be a muslim wherever you live so your suggestion that a true muslim show migrate from the west is unfounded.

[Miriam1]

^ how is it unfounded? You are paying taxes to a secular state you are contributing to its advancement (even though its to your own as well) if your an employee of a company you pay monthly for your pension plans which are invested and also accumlate interest.

 

Taliban...what is real research, wikipedia is not "OK" its subjective scribbles. You want to conduct real research, read his articles, grab a few books on the topics he address, critically analysis his work. Do not depend on the opinion of others..unless your incapable of forming your own?

 

Great Discussion so far.

[N.O.R.F]

Not really familia with TR but lets not label him a bad apple based on hearsay.

 

Several currents of thought exist in the Islamic world today and disagreements are numerous, deep and recurring. Among these, a small minority demands the immediate and strict application of hudûd, assessing this as an essential prerequisite to truly defining a “Muslim majority society” as “Islamic”. Others, while accepting the fact that the hudûd are indeed found in the textual references (the Qur’an and the Sunna[2]), consider the application of hudûd to be conditional upon the state of the society which must be just and, for some, has to be “ideal” before these injunctions could be applied.

Interesting,

 

Viking, weeynak akhi?

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Geel_Jire12:

Quote:Secular Education comes first, then Obedience to Allah comes second

 

So what? You live in a western society were you indulge in riba and constant unislamic taxes! Some of these taxes probably go to fund wars against Muslims. In fact if you really obeyed your lord, you would have migrated from the West!That is, if you live in the West!

Salamz,

 

Saxib what you are pointing to are called 'unavoidable necessities'. You have to pay taxes, you need a bank account to receive your wages etc.

 

There are no alternatives because we don't live in 'Dar al Muslimeen'. However, that does not validate the slippery slope of legitamizing all things such as not observing hijab and the beard, sending children to secular schools, eating pork, not paying zakat, not fasting, not going to hajj, not praying etc.

 

What Tariq is promoting is REFORM and to hold 'Liberal Democratic Values' more than 'Islamic values'. To Tariq Ramadan, being the GOOD CITIZEN above all else (total integration) is what is to be valued. He would say that the islamic values are to be practiced in the home and not practiced outside the home.

 

As to your claim that In fact if you really obeyed your lord, you would have migrated from the West!That is, if you live in the West! well the Ulama differ on that and the concensus opinion is that you have to be 'Propogating the Deen' wherever you are. Meaning practicing it inwardly and outwardly, for what good is to migrate somewhere and not practice your deen.

 

So if you go to kuwait and end up losing your deen then you might be better off in the Wales and vice versa.

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Ameen:

however, to delay or put aside for the meantime, one of the commandments of Allah, the Most-Great, should NEVER been done.

Well said. The application of Allah's commandments doesn't hinge on the existence of Islamic government or caliphate. If one suggests suspending one of the commandments, one might as well suggest suspending the rest of the commandments. Right?

[A.J. Timacadeh]

Hayam,

 

sister, the statement is unfounded because it assumes that a muslims in incapable of living as problem muslim in a western state and would therefore have to migrate to an islamic. dont get me wrong i understand that it is very hard to live a peaceful muslim life in the west but that doesnt mean that it is impossible

[Ameen]

Mashallah this is thread is turning out to be a hot one .

 

Sister Hayam, I personal took the time to read brother Tarik's work and reading his work, I would recall the words of the Salif when he said, "examine carefully the speech of everyone in your time" and I would keep that in mind as I reviewed his work. Subhan'Allah we are all Allah's creation and sometimes we agree on some matters and other matters we don’t see eye to eye but one thing we should all recognize is that Allah and Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah (saw) are the only ones who could order us to live our lives a particular way and in saying this, I must ask, how do you feel about those who speak about reforming Islam?

Are there such things as a moderate Muslim and if so, who is a moderate Muslim?

 

Don’t take the questions I ask or anybody else asks to heart, remember what the Prophet said about asking questions, for they are the cure for ignorance.

 

And Allah knows best

[Khalaf]

Yaa Ameen salaamu alaykum yaa akhi, kaif halakum inshallah khayr walaal...............I think u and Taliban misunderstood Viking. And he may correct me, lakiin the way I understood him was he didn’t say “deley” or “put aside” the commandments of Allah Most Great nothing close to dat, however and rightly so he questioned those who implement the laws of Islam, an example he gave was the corrupt monarchy society of the Kingdom of Suad and I would add the corrupt society of Pakistan, they may think they are doing good for the society however they are contrary to the ways of Islam dont u think? Do u think they are following the method of prophethood scw?

 

Hayam I cant access the audio....therefore cant comment on da topic of muslim identity.....

[Ameen]

Wa alaikum assalam my brother Khalaf and how are you doing? Inshallah everything with you and your family is good and perhaps I did misunderstand Viking and if that’s the case, I don’t feel nothing in my heart when it comes to admitting a mistake and Allah knows best.

 

Originally posted by Khalaf:

however they are contrary to the ways of Islam dont u think? Do u think they are following the method of prophethood scw?

Indeed we are living in a time where the governments are corrupt and the people are too weak and lack the Eman to stand up and say, "enough is enough". But inshallah I can almost see victory in the distance coming our way so I have been patient with the corrupt governments to this point, so I think, heck...I don’t think...I know the time for change is coming ever so close. I don’t really concern myself with the wrong they (as the leaders of the land) do because Allah has made their position in the land as a means of test for them and as it looks to us from the outside, it appears they are following desires and not serving the rights of Allah in the country in which they have been entrusted with. If only they understood the responsibility that comes with their position, I don’t think any of them would rush to sign up but many of us don’t understand.

 

For sure they are not following the example of Muhammad (saw) and they will be questioned about that. Its shameful to say, our leaders hearts are full evil and corruption that has caused them to follow their own desires and forget about the rights of the people.

 

Which reminds me of something Umar (ra) said during his time as the Leader, "how can I sleep during the day when the people have rights over me and how can I sleep during the night when Allah has rights over me", which basically shows us that he understood the seriousness of the matter of being given the position of Leader.

 

And Allah knows best

[Khalaf]

Ameen I am well brother alxamdu. Ninyahow, why blame the leaders aren’t corrupt leaders only a reflection of the corrupt society in which they rule? Or as many often do blame the west, secularism, ect ect ect for the problems facing the ummah. Clearly we were told as long as u have the Quran and Sunnah u will never go astry, the ummah left the Quran and Sunnah, what is happening to them is as the Quran says: “And whatever calamity befalls you, it is due to your own doings." The signs are there as u say, glad tidings to the believers lakiin we are told: "Verily Allah does not change the condition of a people unless they change it themselves.".......

 

about "signs" ...ninyahow I read, I don’t remember da book lakiin it was about the afflictions that will befall the entire ummah-it will get much worse den this, and they will continue to be in that state, until an army rises from baitul-sham...to the east of falistine, wearing black......they will go to the people of sham who are fighting amongst themselves at that time and who are astry and tell them to change, the ppl wont listen to them, they will fight them, defeat them ect, unite the ppl of sham wit them........then unite arabiya, and eventually ride to Roma and the city of Christendom will fall to the Muslims.....end of times nooh, glad tidings to the Muslims....we was all talking about dis, wit some christen cats.......well ummm da muslims will be the "losers" in their version ....but our aim should be to follow the Quran and Sunnah, Islam is mercy nooh....there is also hadith that says yaa Ameen that those during the hard times who hold on to Islam ie in da West will have the award of 50 of the companions....inshallah Allah gives all of us khayr. amiin

 

totally off topic....sorry mademoiselle Hayam. ....

 

peace

[Viking]

Khalaf is right. It is not about compromising the Deen but knowing right from wrong. How can an unjust (secular or monarch) ruler apply Shariah and why do Muslims always support anything Islamic even when it used as a tool to oppress or confuse the masses? Abandoning the hudud in difficult or testing times is not compromising Islam. It is said that Caliph Omar suspended hudud temporarily at a time when the economy was in a crisis. How then can one support chopping off hands of those who steal in an impoverished country like Afghanistan or Somalia? How can someone stone an adulterer in Pakistan when some provinces have the pre-Islamic savage laws that result in rape and unjust killing of innocent people? Islam is justice and when it oppresses it is not Islam, but a garb used to conceal a malignant system.

 

North,

I'm around sxb, how's the ME treating you?

 

PS: I remember reading somewhere that you have problems with internet censorship. You can use a circumventor to get past it, some are readily available on the net.

[A.J. Timacadeh]

Viking,

 

ilahay's laws are there to be adhered to at all times. you cannot pick and choose circumstances that the laws should apply and where not.

[Viking]

A.J.,

Islam is not rigid sxb, people make it rigid. For example, pork is haaram; but if you have nothing else to eat then it becomes halaal until you find something else to eat. It's not about "picking what suits you" but making sure that it is applied in the right way. And a secular or military dictatorship is not the right body to apply Shariah. If you can be picked up on the streets randomly, get tortured or killed, then how can this same body claim to apply Shari'ah? If you have impurity on parts of your body you cannot perform worship, you must first rid yourself of the impurities. This is what is being said here, not picking what we like.

[ElPunto]

Why did this interesting thread peter out?

 

Hayam - tell us your thoughts on TR and this lecture since you are probably the most familiar with it. What did you agree or disagree with?

 

Viking - good to see you again.

[Miriam1]

Haven't been keeping up, exams taking are simply taking over.

 

Great discussion so far, Viking well said how can we enforce those laws when other necessary factors are lacking?

 

About the lecture itself, in general from what I have read so far in his lectures, articles online and attending his lectures in person, I simply love fact that he speaks to those who are committed to living the west, being practising muslim and contributing members of society. All those things are mutually possible. I remember one line clearly, its important that we do not take our direction as to how we behave and interact with the our neighbours here, right now from those who are unable to understand back east, due to lack of experience. And looking at it simply it makes alot of sense, Muslims are all alike everyone, but challenges that we face are not the same and the reactions that we have to them cannot be the same, specially when we are so fragmented.

I like how re-asserts the fact that there is no quest for integration anymore, that its really a fabrication. We are already integrated, but we lack the necessary initiative to contribute to our local communities and make our positive presense known.

I like how he clears up this false notion that Islam and practising Muslims cannot live peacefully in the west, that for some reason we are "foreign" and will always be. That we should always dream of going back "home" how many ever generations have lived in the west. That, that thought process in itself is deafting. Creating generations of tempororay citizens, one step in and one step out.

 

He's work, as far as I readup to and heard of, allows for Western Muslims ( and yes they do exist) to form a positive identity. Which is so important.

 

Looking foward to reading two of his books this summer, and inshallah will post my thoughts on them

 

But do carry on,