Against the Saudization of Somaliland

[Fanisha]

Waryaa Ala Ubaahne , Hadaad Abtigey oo muslin ah aad Habaartey, oo in la is habaaraa SOL ay caadi ka tahey anaa habaar aanad ka kicin kuu soo wadee ogow.

Sheekyadii and Mod kiiba aay kula raaceen(by not deleting) in qof Muslin ah La habaaro, waa sheeko cusub

Fudoo baan kusoo akhrinayaa ii sug.

[Rahima]

Yes. But I don’t see how this applies to Mr.Goth. He was dead serious in his article so there was no element of jocularity there. Secondly, you don’t know if he has repented. Infact, you don’t know anything about him, because what you call ‘mocking the diin’ is actually directed at certain self-appointed wadaado in S/land who impose diin in the most inappropriate ways. He is entitled to his opinion of these people. This article is more political as Mr.Goth dabbles in that than religion Rahima (of course you’d know this more if you were an avid reader of his website awdalnews.com).

Our women, whose beauty has allured the eyes of every traveler, have been brainwashed by the prophets of Wahhabism into adorning the black cloak of ignorance.

have to mention here that when I step out into the street in the morning I see groups of girls waiting for school buses; all of them Arabs except for two Somali girls. All the Arab girls of all nationalities look bubbly, tossing their beautiful uncovered hairs and showing off their latest hairstyles. Even those with head covers threw it lightly on the shoulders or barely on the back of the head. They even sometime waved hello for me or for my son. The two Somali girls, however, were fully shrouded with black from head to toe. One could barely see their eyes and they even wore black heavy socks on their feet. Their unique Somali features wrapped into a shapeless form, their shy and modest smiles buried and a kind of heavy footed, reptile shuffling replacing their elegant, Somali-only, rolling hip-walk. The black veil and the black skin also make a very sad and unwelcome combination, while the contrast between a black veil and a fair skin at least mitigates the gloomy impact for Arab women.

Just these two examples are clear indications of making fun of (which can be done so seriously) Islam. Is this not belittling the hijab Athena? This is mocking and ridiculing of the hijab. If he wants to have a go at certain individuals then that is his business, but what has this got to with ‘wadaado’? The hijab is a ruling from Allah, the same Lord he claims to believe in, so why such statements/paragraphs? This is not an opinion of people Athena; this is an opinion of the rulings of the Almighty. Also, what has this got to with politics? Look at the last paragraph for example, what do the choices of young girls who choose to follow the words of their Lord have to do with politics?

 

As for the repentance, as I have asked you Athena if you know that he has retracted these statements then please let us know. The ‘evildoer’ part has a condition which is unrepentant mind you, so if he has repented then it goes without say he would not be classified as such. Also, one does do research you know.

 

Bottom line sister, it matters not whether or this article is political in intent, it does not matter if he has issues with certain ‘wadaado’, in fact non of that matters because he is mocking this religion, and that my dear is a very grave sin.

 

Thirdly, if you know about Somali Society before the 90ties, you would realize that most people held a similar view to Mr.Goth regarding the hijab. There is nothing in his article that’s actually not true of pre-war Somalia. That was how people understood Islam and dare I saw, they were not ‘evildoers’ but people who misunderstood diinta.

It’s called ignorance; this was the downfall of our forefathers, however I ask you, do you believe this to be a feasible excuse from Mr. Goth? You underestimate the knowledge of this man Athena (whom I have researched since my claim of not knowing of him ). A person who knows for example that Allah has stated in the Quran that we women adore hijab and then at the same time calls it a "black cloak of ignorance" is not to be excused with ignorance. You see our forefathers did not know better, Mr. Goth sees the developments and re-awakening of Islam yet chooses to fight it. There is a big difference between the likes of this man and misfortunate forefathers who did not have access to the proper Islam. This is like a much worse scale of for example a woman living in baadiyaha of Somalia and who believes that for example FGM is correct because it is the culture and she does not know better Islamically because she would be lucky if she could read the Fatiha, and then another women who lives in the west/city, knows about all the medical dangers of the practice and the fact that it is xaraam because she attends the casharo at the masjid, yet she still calls for it. The first women can perhaps be excused because of ignorance, she does not know better, but what about the second?

 

Rahima, we have had a similar debate before, and I’m sure you’d agree with me that its gullible to accept everything posted under the guise of Islam online. The only thing we can go by here is where there is clear proof to the claim. There is clear proof to my claim that its not permissible from your own fatwa. There is none to your claim and its naïve to continue saying ‘these scholars’ (whose names I do not recognize) said so n therefore its true. Where is the proof?

What I find hard to understand is how you could be willing to accept part of the fatwa yet choose to neglect the other. Athena, the fatwa clearly states that certain scholars do deem it permissible- this mind you is the same fatwa whose decision you are using as support. Without even knowing their names and the complete proof, we know that credible scholars (who have made this fatwa) have explained that such an opinion exists. You either call the whole fatwa garbage or accept it all. All I was saying all along was, you either prove that one opinion is stronger than another or let others decide that which they see fit because perhaps what they learnt is not the same as that which you learnt. Furthermore, I never claimed that one was stronger than another (you however are inadvertently doing so without any proof), but rather was showing you why the mocking of Islam at the very least makes one an evildoer (which like I said is an unrepentant sinner). It goes without say that if one is repentant then he/she does not come under that category, simple deduction I thought would be understood.

 

You’re right that I initially based my objection on my opinion. But I was raised a Muslim and I like to think I know the right from the wrong on such simple issues and my judgments on such issues come from my background.

And maybe you are right. Perhaps that opinion is strongest, but really walaal ‘I think’ does not hold much ground when it comes to Islam. You either bring forth proof or state it as your opinion without Islamic backing.

 

I hope I've answered all your Q's with no cay

You have and that I thank-you for . But what has happened is what I thought all along, we disagree on the classification of some parts of the piece. I think that he is mocking Islam, you do not.

 

As for the Sky issue, it was not what he said (although of course I didn’t like it) but rather the profanity of it. I have actually exercised moderating three times, once I was asked by an individual to edit a post of theirs, another what to edit a profane exchange between two individuals and the third Sky’s post. I have no right editing Alle-ubaahnes post because I don’t think he should be cursing this man (and I don't personally). I need to have reasons for it and basically because I think would not hold much ground. This goes the same for those who are mocking the hijab right here in this thread. I hate it that they do so, but it is their opinion and really have no reason in terms of my responsbilities on SOL.

 

 

Anyway enjoy the rest of Ramadan.

[Caano Geel]

Originally posted by Rahima:

This goes the same for those who are mocking the hijab right here in this thread...

Raxiima, abaayo, surely you dont me! and i thought we were friends ...

 

Originally posted by Rahima:

Mr. Goth sees the developments and re-awakening of Islam yet chooses to fight it. There is a big difference between the likes of this man and misfortunate forefathers who did not have access to the proper Islam.

Sis, i have to disagree with you on this. we're suffering more misfortune today than our forefathers did.. and what they did suffer, they did it in their land and next to their people.

 

The misfortune here is the way religion is discussed, it is yet another divider.. litterally sectioning the righteous from the dammed .. and often you have to decide which side you fall in on. maybe its the time of year i don't know, but as far as i understood, a better understanding of religion was supposed to enlighten you and give tolerance, wisdom and patience to think, and think about the world around you. here it acts like armour,

> i throw my hadith at you

> but you defelect it with a sura

> ahh but my fatwa is comming in from behind with the quadruple upper cut ...

 

why, i don't know.... i could intellectualise and say blah blah migration, blah, insecurity, blah, i could be a revivalist and something about rediscovering a lost wisdom .. were and when it was lost i dint .. nor do i know the roots of any insecurity. but it would be nice if each interesting discussion was not reduced to the righteous and the dammed or whose armour is hiding more cunning hadiths;

[-Serenity-]

There is a certain 'cloak of ignorance' that needs lifting here.

[Valenteenah.]

Originally posted by Taqwa:

If you find a post or a reply where I personally started a quarrel with you regarding a reply you made or a thread you posted I will leave SOL permanently. Deal? IF you don't find anything then I suggest you don't respond to me during my stay in this forum. No better way to settle this.

Start your search.

Yes, I can see just how much you dislike muranka iyo sheekada dumarka. I'm trying to figure out when I gave you the impression that I care about your comings or goings. Leave permanently or set up house here, it matters little to me.

 

But I am curious about something. Scroll back up to page 3 and tell me cidaad qudbada u jeedineysay in your first post? Who else, other than me and Athena, was giving Alle-Ubaahne a hard time over his habaar? Ma cirkaad la hadleysay, mise Casper the Friendly Ghost? Your problem Taqwa, is you don't have the decency to address people directly. Waxaad jeceshay inaad ku dhagahadasho. Such a petty tactic isn't going to save you from my whip, I am afraid. Uh uh.

 

Now, as much as I enjoy poking fun at you, I don't fancy breaking out in a rash. Waad fasaxantahay. I might say hello again in 6 months' time, Allah Willing.

 

Ramadan kariim.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Alle-ubaahne:

^We don't understand midget and cockfight. Plus we are simple somalians, who are ESLers, so let's make it simple in Somali.

 

Throw the somali version at me now!

There is no somali version!

 

So what is your take based on your vast and extensive knowledge in Islam about midget throwing as sport and cockfighting?

 

I wait for your reply.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Rahima:

A person who knows for example that Allah has stated in the Quran that we women adore hijab and then at the same time calls it a "black cloak of ignorance" is not to be excused with ignorance.

Where in the Quran does it say muslim women must wear the Hijab?

 

This goes the same for those who are mocking the hijab right here in this thread. I hate it that they do so, but it is their opinion and really have no reason in terms of my responsbilities on SOL.

Rahima,

 

I got no beef if you wanna wear the Hijab. I got no bone to pick with any muslimah that wants to wear the hijab either. If by wearing the Hijab you and other muslimahs feel your completing your religious obligations, who am I to tell you you can't? No body!

 

I fully support your right as a muslim woman to wear the Hijab. I'm surprised you took exception to my blithely, bland personal preference for the dirac (what man would prefer Hijab over see-through dirac? C'mon now rahima) over the Hijab. I'm stumped!!!

 

I also support the right of OTHER muslim woman not to wear the Hijab. The operative word being CHOICE. And a choice upto the individual muslimah. Not society, holy prelates, self proclaimed Allah's translators/intrepretors, me or you. Because there is NO COMPULSION in religion as Allah has said so in the Quran.

 

On the practical side, you can not force FAITH. No amount fear of punishment by demi-gods (holy prelates) will make someone believe or love Islam. Faith in Islam is something born out of learning, searching, questioning, doubting, contemplating, experiencing, feeling, gaining, losing, stumbling...FREEDOM being absolutely essential. Take away that freedom, force the person to behave in such and such way YOU deem religiously righteous and you step outside the realm of faith and into the realm totalitarian ideologies. One akin to fascism and communism. When the state (or religious authority) forces its citizens how to worship or society coerces the faithful by stern promises and veiled threats of ostracism or extreme social isolation, the faithfuls obedience and loyalty lies with Man and NOT with Allah -- as it should. In fact, he is worshiping man and not Allah. He fears Man more than God. Since whatever he does is done out of fear of being punished by his fellow man and not Allah. That is not faith! That is dictatorship! It is the for the explained reasons above that I FULLY support the separation of state and religion.

 

So, rahima, my percieved slight against the Hijab --which you have whoppingly misread -- stems NOT from objection of the Hijab per se but from the attitude I sense from you and other Hijah-for-muslimahs promoters which is that the Hijab is UNIVERSAL dress code for muslim women. Or should be. The Hijab is not universal fig for muslims across the world. Never has been and there is every reason to think it will never be. The question really is: will YOU accept a muslim woman's choice of dress if it was up to you?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Curling Waterfall:

There is a certain 'cloak of ignorance' that needs lifting here.

over who?

[-Serenity-]

^ The one where we hold the holy texts with one hand and go against its teachings in the other. Right and wrong is not relative in Islam.

 

• 1562. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: A drunkard was brought to the Prophet (PBUH). He said, "Give him a beating.'' Then some beat him with their hands, some with their shoes, and some with (a folded) piece of cloth. When he left, someone said to him: "May Allah disgrace you!'' The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Do not help Satan overcome him by uttering such words.''

  [Al-Bukhari].

   

  Commentary: We learn from this Hadith that imprecation against a sinner helps Satan because he is avowed to disgrace and humiliate Muslims before Allah. When a Muslim curses another Muslim and imprecates for his humiliation and disgrace, he in fact tries to accomplish the mission of Satan because in doing so Satan will have achieved his objective. Therefore, one should not curse a fellow Muslim even if he or she is a sinner. In fact, one should pray to Allah for his or her guidance.

Rachel, habaar was never condoned on SOL before and hopefully it wont be condoned from now and become an established norm.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Somaliaonline shouldn't be allowing such people who clearly support the enemy of our religion, who are no different than Ayan Xirsi. These extremist and ultra-secularist elements amongst us are testing our patience when they blatanly support the views of Allah's enemy and yet worse expect us to accomodate some rooms for their callous passivity about Islam.

[Pujah]

6 pages and ya still at it...give it a rest will ya :mad:

[Rahima]

The one where we hold the holy texts with one hand and go against its teachings in the other. Right and wrong is not relative in Islam.

Very true, but I have yet to see any establishment of wrong (for certain) thus far. I’ve said many many times, establish that one opinion is stronger then the other and then we can take steps. If you cannot do so then you have no right saying that someone else is wrong.

 

1562. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said: A drunkard was brought to the Prophet (PBUH). He said, "Give him a beating.'' Then some beat him with their hands, some with their shoes, and some with (a folded) piece of cloth. When he left, someone said to him: "May Allah disgrace you!'' The Prophet (PBUH) said, "Do not help Satan overcome him by uttering such words.''

[Al-Bukhari].

 

Commentary: We learn from this Hadith that imprecation against a sinner helps Satan because he is avowed to disgrace and humiliate Muslims before Allah. When a Muslim curses another Muslim and imprecates for his humiliation and disgrace, he in fact tries to accomplish the mission of Satan because in doing so Satan will have achieved his objective. Therefore, one should not curse a fellow Muslim even if he or she is a sinner. In fact, one should pray to Allah for his or her guidance.

A drunkard (who simply just has a weakness, not one who is legitimizing the sin) and an individual who mocks Allahs religion cannot be seen on the same plane Athena. One (the former) does not contain with it the danger of kufr unlike the other (the latter). The distinction is very clear.

 

It seems like you are making mockery of Islam as a light matter, I mean comparing it to drinking alcohol (which is a major sin, but in comparison fairs as very small) just shows that. No need to hurl insults at one another, just read below on the ruling of one who mocks Islam and what mockery actually is.

 

_________________________________________

Mockery of the Religion is Disbelief

 

Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan

 

Source: Things that Nullify One's Islam (p.41-46) [1]

 

[ In the Name of Allah, the All-Merciful... ]

 

The sixth one: Whoever mocks anything fromthe Religion of the Messenger or Allah'sreward or punishment has disbelieved. [2]

 

The sixth kind of apostasy is mockery of what Allah sent down or of anything that the Messenger came with, even things from the Sunnahs (of the Prophet, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) or recommended things like siwaak, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, or trimming the nails. If a person makes mockery of any of these things he becomes a disbeliever. The evidence for this is found in the Statement of Allah the Most High:

 

"And if you were to ask them, they would say: 'Surely we were

only jesting and playing.' Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses,

or His Messenger you were mocking? Make no mistake,

verily you have disbelieved after your belief.' " [3]

 

So then the one who mocks anything that the Messenger came with, be it obligatory or recommended, he is an apostate from the Religion of Islam. So then what do you think about the one who says, "Growing the beard, trimming the moustache, removing armpit hair, washing the knuckles, these are insignificant things!" This is exactly what is meant by mockery of the Religion of Allah, the Mighty and Majestic. When they say this thing, and if they know (it is from the Religion), then they have apostated, since this is belittling what the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) came with. It is obligatory to have great reverence for the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and to respect it.

 

Even if a person falls into some kind of opposition (to the Sunnah) due to his desires, then surely he still must respect the way of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam), respect his Sunnahs, and respect the narrations. He must not say, "These are insignificant things."

 

The proof is the Statement of Allah the Most High:"Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses, or His Messengeryou were mocking? Make no mistake, verilyyou have disbelieved after your belief.' " [4]

 

The event that led to the revelation of this Verse was what happened with a group of people who were with the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) during the Battle of Tabook. They were Muslims. During a gathering they began to say, "We have not seen the likes these reciters of ours, the most untruthful tongues, the greediest stomachs, the most cowardly in the face of the enemy…" They were referring to the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and his Companions.

 

Amongst them was a young man from the Companions who became enraged at this speech and went to convey what this group was saying to the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam). He found that the revelation had preceded him (in informing the Messenger).

So then the group came apologizing once they heard that the Messenger had become aware of what happened in their gathering. One of them was hanging on to the front harness of the Prophet's she-camel while he (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) was riding it, saying, "O Messenger of Allah! We were just talking loosely to help pass the time during the journey! We did not intend mockery, rather we only intended to joke." The Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) would not even look at him, he only recited upon him this Verse:

"And if you were to ask them, they would say: 'Surely we were

only jesting and playing.' Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses,

or His Messenger you were mocking? Make no mistake,

verily you have disbelieved after your belief.' " [3]

Notice His Statement, "Verily you have disbelieved after your belief." This proves that before they had uttered words (of mockery) they were Muslims, and that when they uttered them they apostated from Islam, even though they were saying that it was a joke. This is because the affairs of the Religion are not to be played with, so Allah had declared them to be disbelievers after their faith. We ask Allah for safety. [4]

 

This is also proof that whoever insults Allah, His Messenger, His Book, anything from the Quran, or anything from the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) apostates from Islam, even if he was joking. [5]

Where are those who say that he does not apostate unless he intends it in his heart? They say, "If a person insulted Allah, the Messenger, or the Quran, we do not pass a judgement upon based merely on his utterance or his action." Where do they get these statements and these specifications from? Allah has judged them with apostasy while they were saying:

"We were jesting and playing." [3]

 

They were believers in Allah and His Messenger, people of tawheed, however, once they uttered those words, Allah said:

"Verily you have disbelieved after your belief." [3]

 

And He did not say, "If you had truly believed that." We ask Allah for safety.

So it is obligatory that things are put in their proper places and that we do not add things, take them away, or specify the texts from our own selves. Allah did not ask about what they believed, nor did He mention that they believed (what they said), rather He ruled on them with apostasy after having faith:

"Verily you have disbelieved after your belief." [3]

 

He based this (ruling) on a statement. He based this (ruling) on mockery, and He did not specify it with these specifications. If a person speaks with a word of disbelief without being forced into it, then he is judged with apostasy. However, if he was forced [6], then he has not apostated in this case.

 

This article was taken from BAKKAHnet (www.bakkah.net)

FOOTNOTES

[1] From the TROID publication: Things that Nullify One's Islam by Shaykh al-Islam Muhammad ibn 'Abdil-Wahhaab, explained by Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan. Click here for information about ordering the book.

[2] The words in the box are from Shaykh al-Islam Muhammad ibn 'Abdil-Wahhaab, and what follows is Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan's explanation.

[3] A translation of the meaning of Soorah at-Tawbah (9):65-66

[4] Shaykh Saalih was asked about the least amount of mockery that would cause a person to be considered an apostate. He replied, "There is no least amount. A small amount is too much, and the refuge is with Allah. Anything that is considered mockery or ridicule is disbelief. Even as they (the scholars) say: A gesture with one's lip, hand, or eye can be considered mockery, even if he has not spoken." Refer to Question #27 in Appendix I: Questions and Answers (of the published version).

[5] Refer to Question #30 in Appendix I: Questions and Answers (of the published version).

[6] Shaykh Saalih states, "The ruling on coercion differs depending on the situation. Something could be considered coercion in one affair and not coercion in another. So it differs depending on the case. However, the coercion that is a valid excuse is that which there was no escape from, there was no way for the person to escape from being killed, beaten or threatened other than saying what was requested from him, like saying a statement of disbelief for example." Refer to Question #18 in Appendix I: Questions and Answers (of the published version).

 

http://www.bakkah.net/articles/mocking-Islam-disbelief.htm

[Rahima]

Raxiima, abaayo, surely you dont me! and i thought we were friends ...

People can be friends and still disagree no?

 

I’ve quoted that exchange, please tell me right there, is that not taking a swipe at xijaab from Socod_Badne (who’ll I get to)?

 

No to tents, yes to dirac. Who's with me?

and then you:

 

the ASM - vice presidency is yours dude, my warmest congratulations the honarable Socod_badne of Ottawa ...

we need more members people.. high-level organisational posts are going like hot cakes

How can you then as a Muslim, laugh along with him and make a joke of it? :confused: You should at least correct the brother and tell him, even if he meant it as a joke, that such matters do not come under such categories. You cannot call the xijaab a tent; this is what the gaalo use as cay. It is very disheartening to see fellow Muslims use the same language.

 

The longer and the more covering the xijaab, the better. This is not to say that this makes a sister more pious, but we are talking about it in the context of doing its job. A sister who wears the Somali style Jilbaab is more covered that for example one who wears the cabaya/xijaab style and she more covered then one who is in a tight skirt/top/xijaab style and so forth and so on. Let me re-iterate, this does not make one more pious.

 

As for the understanding and having patience, I totally agree. But that in this issue is a matter of what is better, not right and wrong. And yes you are right, it would be nice if such discussions were not reduced to exchanges like these. Personally i hate them.

[Rahima]

Where in the Quran does it say muslim women must wear the Hijab?

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons or their sisters' sons, or their women or the servants whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex, and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers, turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss.†(Quran 24:31).

 

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.†(Quran 33:59)

 

I can see where this is heading. You are going to dispute that the word ‘hijab’ is not literally mentioned or something along those lines. This is just word, basically women have to cover that which is prescribed in the Quran and further explained in the Sunnah, some of which you do not believe in so I’m not sure how we can have a productive discussion if we don’t even agree on the sources.

 

(what man would prefer Hijab over see-through dirac? C'mon now rahima) over the Hijab. I'm stumped!!!

I mean for your wife sure, but for the average Muslimah walking down the street, why would you want her to be uncovered? Do you just want to ogle? You should be enjoying the good brother and forbidding the evil. And anyway, you should be lowering your gaze first of all .

 

 

stems NOT from objection of the Hijab per se but from the attitude I sense from you and other Hijah-for-muslimahs promoters which is that the Hijab is UNIVERSAL dress code for muslim women. Or should be.

Of course it should be. I cannot claim to be Muslim and then decide to turn a blind eye to what my religion says. Allah has stated in the Quran that we women should cover our ornaments and the prophet s.c.w has explained that further by saying that:

 

Abu Dawood narrates that `Aishah (RAA) said: "Asmaa' the daughter of Abu Bakr (RAA) came to see the Messenger of Allah (SAAWS) wearing a thin dress; so Allah's Messenger (SAAWS) turned away from her and said: O Asmaa', once a woman reaches the age of menstruation, no part of her body should be seen but this-and he pointed to his face and hands.

 

(just one example)

 

The Hijab is not universal fig for muslims across the world. Never has been and there is every reason to think it will never be. The question really is: will YOU accept a muslim woman's choice of dress if it was up to you?

What has or will be is not the issue (people have stolen and will continue to steal, does that make it right?), rather what should be (Muslims should observe hijab, men and women, and people should not steal). We Muslim women should be covered as that stated by Rasuallah. I for example (and may Allah forgive me, we shouldn’t really air our sins) do not cover as I should, but that is my failing. I’m not going to try and change this religion to suite my purposes. I know I am wrong. As for accepting, there is not anything I can do about it, it is her choice but it is still wrong.

 

Now for force, who is talking about force? No one is forcing anyone else to cover for we do not have an Islamic government. Were there one, then yes it could be made law and it would mean that all citizens (both men and women) would have to abide by the hijaab laws imposed. Here in Australia, it is illegal to streak for example, or to smoke in certain public places. These are laws for them and laws, which must be respected by the citizens. In an Islamic country governed by the Shariica, it is a right to have the xijaab made compulsory.

 

You know socod badne, with all due respect I don’t think I want to head down this trek, like I said I can see where it’s going. You obviously don’t believe that the hijaab is waajib, and even if were to discuss that you’ll probably just say you don’t believe in any hadith I might give you. I can’t discuss why you should be fined without your P’s up if you believe that the road laws in Australia are whole load of crock . This is the reason why I avoided and steered clear of your argument about the hadiths.

 

But if you want to know more about the hijab issue (without getting into a debate about it ), visit:

 

http://islamic-world.net/sister/hijab_in_quran.htm

[-Serenity-]

Rahima, was that an attempt to mortify me? I’m only replying because I find it mind-boggling that you continue to bypass clear proof that habaar is not sanctioned by diinta and if your only claim to the otherwise is ‘some scholars said so’, then my dear, I feel for you. There is so much you can blind urself to whats right infront of you and twist and turn. As some1 said in a previous statement. ‘ignorant arrogance is one of the ugliest qualities anybody could have the misfortune of possessing’.

 

What exactly are you attempting to convey with that irrelevant to the subject of discussion copy and paste?

 

If you are:

 

1) Attempting to tell me that belittling and making fun of religious principles is something I shouldn’t make light of. Then dear, thanks. I know.

2) Implying that Bashir Goth is an apostate. Then let me say that Fatwas or religious addicts should only be issued by clerics with religious authority. Followers cannot label other muslims as apostates. I’m sure you know that if you label another Muslim a disbeliever, and if they are not, then you become a disbeliever. So if Rahima/Alleubaahne has logically deducted that B.G is an apostate and he is indeed not, then Rahima/Alle-u-baahne is. Still, the outcome is in your favour I would say, so wager on!!

 

Also concerning (2), let me make you aware of your own previous statements

 

If he says that he is Muslim, then certainly none of us here is in a position to dispute that

 

If he says he is Muslim, then he is a Muslim

 

I’m not willing to take the chance of making such a judgment on a person who the scholars have not made a decision on, be it Mr Goth or any other individual

 

I don’t agree with Alle-ubaahanes branding of the man (i.e. that he is an apostate) simply because it is not for laymen/women to throw around such branding, but I agree that he is belittling Islamic principles and therefore is wallowing in evil.

Lastly, have a second go at the hadeeth that I posted earlier. Then try and draw a link with ur ‘evildoer’ definition and here is the catch, read the commentary as clearly my point is about ‘cursing’. I cant continue in every post and rewrite my previous argument in bigger, fatter letters!

 

but I have yet to see any establishment of wrong (for certain) thus far

For certain? But you have seen an establishment of wrong then? Or none at ALL? So right and wrong is relative then?

 

I cant stand ambiguous explanations, self-righteousness in religion, fruitless back n forth arguments and least of all ppl who contradict themselves at the least and are hypocrites at worst (And its said the lowest level of jahanam is reserved for hypocrites, not even apostates ) . No need for a fit, it’s a general statement.