Against the Saudization of Somaliland

[Haneefah]

I once heard a wise shaikh quote another shaikh who said " Argumentation is makrooh(disliked) for the scholars and haram for the common folks." So it's actually haram for average people to debate about Islam. I never knew that before.

[Rahima]

Who's to say which of those opinions holds the most weight?

That is a point to be found by one who can . This was a discussion Bee and therefore it is open for anyone to prove which of those opinions is strongest. I already stated that I was not aware of the stronger opinion, but nonetheless there was a pro-opinion (which obviously would be based on the Q & S) and was just bringing that to light. We should be looking at all the possibilities before jumping on the bandwagon which we perceive to be right based on our own personal opinions of the matter.

 

The Fatwa is also clearly speaking about 'Kufars'.

No it also refers to evildoers which mind you are still Muslims. There is a clear distinction in the fatwa between evildoers and kuffaar.

 

In matters of religion we must always walk on the cautious side. If something isn't so pleasant, keep away from it. Cursing may not be unIslamic, but it is far from pleasant when it is aimed at Non-Muslims let alone at Muslims. Even our Prophet (Peace be Upon Him) was careful about cursing, in case he cursed someone who didn't deserve it. Are we so arrogant that we can forgo such caution here?

I think I was making that exact point, however (as was also my point) we need to be on the side of caution when making judgments on actions such as those of Alle-ubaahane (the same principle should be applied across the board). There is a difference between saying that it (the habaar not the apostate claim) is better he does not and deeming it unislamic/haram. I hope that this point is coming through clear, as this is my whole point really. I don’t have to personally like something, but when it comes to matters of Islam, what I like or don’t like don’t matter.

 

Rahima, that's just it, isnt it, dear? None of us here are in a position to dispute that Bashir Goth is a Muslim, yet Alle-Ubaahne can assume that he is an apostate? Forget the curse...that's nothing compared to assuming a Muslim is an apostate, without evidence. Where's is this evidence? Or are we all allowed to say anything we want without the need to back up our accusations?

I’m not willing to take the chance of making such a judgment on a person who the scholars have not made a decision on, be it Mr Goth or any other individual. However, I was stating it as I understood from Alle-ubaahanes post (not that I was supporting his claim on the mans faith- I was hoping that that was obvious). As for the legitimacy and the need for evidence, looks like Alle-ubaahane has provided evidence for his stance. Insufficient, sufficient, proof enough, not proof enough, that is a matter for those disagreeing on the matter to discuss. As far as I am concerned it is an extremely complex matter to dissect, one that I’m no way near qualified (and probably never will be) to get into. I don’t agree with Alle-ubaahanes branding of the man (i.e. that he is an apostate) simply because it is not for laymen/women to throw around such branding, but I agree that he is belittling Islamic principles and therefore is wallowing in evil.

 

Really, it is. But it becomes a moot point, when it is immediately followed by the judgement that he is an evildoer. Most of the people here disagreed with his article...but who unanimously agreed that he is an 'evil-doer'? Who can judge that but Allah?

The scholars of Islam, for Allah has stated in His holy book the Quran that when we do not know to ask the people of knowledge. There are characteristics of such people and therefore it can easily be ascertained whether or not Mr. Goth is an evildoer.

 

Belittling and making fun of Islamic principles makes one an evildoer. Stealing makes one a thief, therefore is Mr. Goth was to steal he would be a thief no? I'm not sure if you two girls disagree or not, but reading this article, Mr. Goth in my opinion was most definitely making fun of and belittling Islamic principles, for example those of the beard and the proper required xijaab.

 

From denouncing his diin to implying he is an Evildoer. Oh Rahima… all this in the midst of ‘I don’t know anything about him’ and ‘If he says that he is Muslim, then certainly none of us here is in a position to dispute that’. And what unanimity are you referring to? Who are these ‘scholars’ or ‘learned people’ who explicitly stated Bashir Goth is an evildoer? How did they come to that conclusion?

Firstly Athena, one can be a Muslim and an evildoer at the same time. Evildoer is not synonymous with gaalnimo . Like I said above, there is a clear distinction in the fatwa between evildoer and kaffir.

 

Secondly, any individual who makes fun or belittles the rulings of Allah (be it the beard or the xijaab) is at the very least an evildoer. That Athena is the lightest stance. Bashir Goth without even looking into his other works has done so in this piece (and I’m sure that is clear for all to read).

 

Besides, there is only one judge and thats Allah swt and no amount of 'scholarly fatwa' can make any1 an 'apostate' or 'evildoer' if they say they are muslim.

It is on this point that we disagree. You see, whereas I consider people like Salman Rushdie apostates (even though he claims to be Muslim) because it was a unanimous decision amongst the scholars, you going by the above (do correct me if I’m wrong) hold the opinion that no amount of ‘scholarly fatwa’ can make him an ‘apostate’ or ‘evildoer’. Now I’m not making the comparison between these two men, but rather highlighting why I disagree with what you have stated above.

 

The prophet s.c.w said "My Ummah will not unite upon error." [Reported by at-Tirmidhee and Haakim - Sahih], therefore when they unanimously agree that Salman Rushdie is not a Muslim irrespective of what he says then so it is for we must trust in the words of Rasuallah.

 

Therefore, the learned people can deem an individual to be an apostate based on evidence from the Q & S.

 

Who are these ‘scholars’ or ‘learned people’ who explicitly stated Bashir Goth is an evildoer? How did they come to that conclusion? I really don’t see how or where Alle-u-baahne has support or ‘legitimate’ backup except in you.

I never said “scholars’ or ‘learned people’ stated that Bashir Goth was anything let along evildoer. What I stated was that the scholars of Islam have said for example that someone who jests at Islamic principles is an evildoer at the very least. Mind you, evildoer means a person who sins without repenting.

 

Going by that Athena, we know that Mr. Goth is making fun of Islamic principles in this piece and as far as I’m aware he is not repenting (if he has retracted these statements please let us know).

 

That also said, since we can easily establish the ‘evildoer’ status of this man (all depends on whether or not you agree that he is making fun and belittling), the fatwa is very clear (it is not what I stated):

 

2 – Cursing a particular kaafir or

evildoer

concerning whom there is no text stating that they are cursed – such as wine-drinkers, those who offer sacrifices to anything other than Allaah, the one who curses his parents, those who introduce innovations in religion, and so on.

 

“The scholars differed as to whether it is permissible to curse these people, and there are three points of view:

 

(i) That it is not permissible under any circumstances

 

(ii) That it is permissible in the case of a kaafir but not of a (Muslim) evildoer

 

(iii) That it is permissible in all cases.â€

As i see it, none of us in a position to call the man an apostate, but the evildoer status is dependant on what you believe of his piece, is he making fun of Islamic principles or not?

[Caano Geel]

ok, to end this debate i'll say it ...

i like my girls skinny not and repeat not in tents, end of story

 

the Anti-Saudization movement (ASM) to keep our girls skinny starts here, comrades, we need people and non-draconian principles with scarfs if they choose to do so.

[Alle-ubaahne]

Sister Rahima, did you forget this verse in the Quran,

Say: 'Was it Allah, His Verses, or His Messenger you were mocking? Make no mistake, verily you have disbelieved after your belief.

Because as you said here,

Secondly, any individual who makes fun or belittles the rulings of Allah (be it the beard or the xijaab) is at the very least an evildoer. That Athena is the lightest stance. Bashir Goth without even looking into his other works has done so in this piece (and I’m sure that is clear for all to read).

Mockery and making fun out of Allah's Diin is very serious violation that automatically qualifies one to be an apostate. Do you understand sister the word mockery and jestering or saying jocular statements over the believing women in Islam? Read, please, the verse that goes, waladiina yarmuuna muxsinaati biqeyri maktasabuu.... walahum cadaabun cadiim. I think you know the Ayah which was revealed because of the munaafiqiin throwing insults at Caa'isha, RC. And for that reason, its very serious sin to make mockery of the rightious Muslim women. Its not my opinion, its Allah's ruling in the Quran. It can obviously qualify a person to be out side of the Islamic pale.

 

However, I was not merely saying that Bashir Goth is Kaafir, I was saying what he said is exactly the very reasons that can qualify a believing person to be kaafir after his/her previous belief in Islam. It doesn't matter whether he calls himself a Muslim or not, one sin, such as that he delibarately said, is enough evidence for becoming kaafir.

 

Allah knows the best

[Taqwa]

Ducaqabe,

 

Walaal wa runta musliminta wa lagu yaqaan inay is cafiyaan lakiin miyaad aragtaay qof dhan oo ku dhabaah socod for the past 3 years after every reply you write. Mar mar ayan is waydiin jiraay "taani miyeey dantahay". Xishood daradeed ayan uga amuusi jiraay lakiin bila'adan baan ahay saxiib. Hadal dumar iyo muraan waxan adunayada ka necebahay ma jirto. Hadaay in taasi iyado oo qadatay xumaan, wax aan oo qabaan kara ma jirto. Adigo naah aad iyo aad baad oo mahadsantahay sidaad igo micnaysay. Adiga baah yidhii Dadka qaar baan jawaab mudneyn.

 

 

Athena,

 

 

Ilahay baan kugu darshee ma jawaab baad iga suugaysa? I'm doing my utmost best to pretend you don't exist.

[Socod_badne]

No to tents, yes to dirac. Who's with me?

[Caano Geel]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

No to tents, yes to dirac. Whose with me?

the ASM - vice presidency is yours dude, my warmest congratulations the honarable Socod_badne of Ottawa ...

 

we need more members people.. high-level organisational posts are going like hot cakes

[-Serenity-]

Maxaa i haysta. Ma anigaa wax fahmeyn mise waxbaa u dhiman dadkan iga soo hor jeeda? Its Ramadan and compassion is in the air (even for unscrupulous beings ) so I’ll keep it precise.

 

We basically have two issues here:

 

1] The permissibility of habaar on non-muslims and evildoers.

 

A fatwa was posted by Rahima to support Alle-u-baahne’s vile habaar that:

 

(i) Does not give evidence its acceptable in general to curse or insult non-muslims, just a ‘Ibn Muflih said in al-Adaab al-Shar’iyyah’. Ibn Muflih? As a wee toddler, one of the 1st things I was thought about Islam was that habaar was bad. Period. Infact, in suuratal Baqarah, I come across this verse,

 

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

 

I don’t know how this fits in with the understanding between you two that its acceptable to insult and curse dad gaaloo wax kuu dhimin. Everything that I read and learn seems to go against your understanding of it. Laakiin there for hope, I'm still learning .

 

(ii) There is CLEAR evidence that habaar towards any specific person (let alone a Muslim) is not permissible. I cant blv that I’ve to spell it out like this again… its right there. There is really nothing to weigh and there is no evidence in th fatwa to support the last hypothesis while there is clear ayah and hadeeth to support the 1st.

 

2] Whether Rahima and Alle-u-baahne are in a position to label Mr.Goth an apostate/evildoer and if he is one

 

I’m not interested in supporting Mr. Goth’s position in general. But let me make something clear.

 

No amount of habaar, out-of-context rebuttals, righteousness, self-styled wadaadnimo, appeals to the emotions of Muslims, insults, labeling etc, will make Mr.Goth a kaafir or an evildoer because some1 on this board said so. While I clearly understand the argument that some people cannot continue to call themselves muslims after their attacks on Islam (Rushdie, Irshad, etc), Mr.Goth doesn’t fall into that category judging from his articles. Bashir Goth, like any other muslim and human being has faults. Its not my place here to defend his wrongs. However, I dont think this article is license to insult/curse/brand him and claim its sanctioned by diinta. Rahima or Alle-u-baahne are not scholars (by their own admission) and are not in a position to label any1 or say so. Its also contradictory to write ‘none of us are in a position to call the man an apostate’ in one hand while on the other finding it fitting and acceptable to brand some1 an ‘evildoer’.

 

In the end, any fatwa is a sorry excuse for commonsense and humane decency. We really need not have gone this far.

 

And talking of commonsense (and on a lighter note ), *trying to shock Alle-u-baahne* there was this article by Bashir Goth that made me chuckle… Is it possible he could be talking to you Mr.Alle-u-baahne? Click Here .

 

Taqwa,

 

I don’t know waxaad igu haysato aniga. I only asked a genuine Q concerning the topic since you decided to comment on it.

[Caano Geel]

Originally posted by iPod Athena:

(even for unscrupulous beings

)

are u calling me unscrupulous?

 

at least join our cause before labelling it

[-Serenity-]

Our cause? hehe. Iga fagow yarow!

[Caano Geel]

Originally posted by iPod Athena:

Our cause? hehe. Iga fagow yarow!

come on, you'll make a great press secratary, imagine the power u'll have over all media!

[-Serenity-]

As impressive and tempting as the position and the Anti-Saudization Movement (ASM) sound, I think I will pass to be my own queen in my own kingdom (hopefully in good terms with both the ASM and SM )

[Khayr]

Salaaamz,

 

Allah works in mysterious ways and will use anyone and anything to serve his purpose and to REMEMBER HIM.

 

Athena, I can't recall you posting more quranic ayats on sol, then I have seen in the past few days.

 

Somehow this Bashir Gother 'CHEQUEBOOK JOURNALIST' as one nomad calls him, writes alot

like like a particularrrr SOL MEMBER

 

and no...I ain't calling anyone an 'EVILDOER or APOSTATE'

 

Fi Amanillah

[Rahima]

Athena,

 

1.What do you call an individual who makes fun of Allah’s rulings and does not repent? An unrepenting sinner perhaps?

2.Do you agree that at least in this piece Mr Goth is making fun of and belittling rulings of Allah?

3.Do you agree that the definition of an evildoer is a sinner who does not repent?

4.Finally, if you agree that Mr Goth is making fun of and belittling rulings of Allah (and he has not retracted them) and that makes an individual a sinner who does not repent, then on what grounds is the label ‘evildoer’ wrong?

 

Please answer the above four questions if you would.

 

As for the fatwa, like I’ve said many times before, these scholars have expounded on that which they thought as strongest, but as you can see they have also mentioned other opinions (and if they thought of them to be garbage they would not of have mentioned them). That said I did not say that one was more correct than the other (c’mon Athena, how many times do I have to say that, don’t twist my words ina adeer), all I said was that there are differing opinions and for some of you to stop attacking Alle-ubaahne on the premise that it is against Islam. You do not know that for certain. Object based on what you believe to be correct in your opinion (outside of Islamic jurisdiction), but not Islam.

 

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

 

I don’t know how this fits in with the understanding between you two that its acceptable to insult and curse dad gaaloo wax kuu dhimin. Everything that I read and learn seems to go against your understanding of it. Laakiin there for hope, I'm still learning

I’m not exactly sure what your implying here, but you’re not saying that this verse applies to the Christians and Jews of today are you? After the advent of Rasuallah Athena, there is no religion besides Islam which is accepted by Allah. This verse is referring to the Jews and Christians who followed their respective prophets and scriptures before Prophet Muhammad s.c.w, not the ones of today.

 

Wax kuu dhiman is cay Athena, just thought I’d highlight since it is Ramadan .

 

In the end, any fatwa is a sorry excuse for commonsense and humane decency. We really need not have gone this far.

This is another sticking point, just like your “Besides, there is only one judge and thats Allah swt and no amount of 'scholarly fatwa' can make any1 an 'apostate' or 'evildoer' if they say they are muslim.†(which I hope I have sufficiently explained the error of that), this also objects to what Allah has told us in the Quran, that when we do not know to go to the scholars of Islam. Also, commonsense is obviously not the same for all, you see I see that an individual who makes fun of the injunctions of my Lord as not deserving of turning a blind eye under the guise of ‘human decency’ -that is my take on commonsense. I cannot do so for an individual who blatantly over and over insults rulings of my religion.

 

Alle-ubaahane,

 

Understood . I was under the impression that you were calling him an apostate as opposed to what you have stated. Some of us here are objecting to the evildoer status, when in actuality the scholars have stated that to mock this religion is to border on Kufr (it is an act of kufr).

[Jacpher]

Athena & Rahima:

 

Waanu isu kiin deynaa bal meeshaad ku soo kala hartaan aanu dhowrnaa. I enjoy being Mustamiciinal kiraam inta badan. Perhaps inaan cilmi idinka faa'iideysano.

 

 

Alle ubaahne: Thanks for sharing that. May Allah reward you for trying to defend His diin. Intentions count the most.

 

Taqwa:

 

Hadaan la kala roonaan roob ma do’o bey odayasheenii hore yiraahdeen. For some reason I was listening to the tafsiir Qur’an not too long ago and it was in Suratul Acraaf maqrada ugu dambeysa. Since it relates to this issue may be I should share it with you. Casharaka waxaa ku dhex jirtay aayada “Khudil cafwa wa’mur bil curfi wa’acrid canil jaahiliin†Sheekha wuxuu sheegay in waqtigii Cumar Bin Khatab ahaa amiirka uu uririyey dhalinyarada Qur’aanka iyo cilmiga taqaan uuna soo dhaweysan jiray. Wiil ka mid ahaa dhalinyaradaas ayaa adeerkiis oo reer baadiye ah u yimid oo ku yiri waxaan maqlay inaad ka ag dhowdahay amiirka ee bal ii geey. Odagii reer baadiyaha ahaa ayaa markii Cumar loo geeyey ayuu eed kusha ka saaray amiirka oo yiri rasuulka scw waxbuu na tari jiray adiga waxba nama siisid, amiir caadil ahna ma tihid. Cumar intuu xanaaqay ayuu ku dhawaaday inuu odagii ul la dhoco (waad taqaan Cumar siduu u kululaa oo looga baqi jiray. Waa ninkii gaaladii Quresh ku yiri wadaadaas ayaan marayaa markuu Madina u socday ninkii hooyadiis raba inay gablanto ha isoo daba galo. Muslimiinta kalena dhuumasho ayey uga baxayeen magaalada) Wiilkii yaraa ee diinta garanaayey ayaa Cumar ku yiri Amiiral Mu’miniin, Alle wuxuu rasuulka amray inuu cafwiga qaato, wanaaga dadka amro, xumaantana ka reebo, jaahiliintana iska daayo. Cumar intuu is celiyey ayuu wiilkii u mahad naqay odagiina iska cafiyey.

 

Sidoo kale, Sheikh kale ayaan aayadaan ka dhageystay asagoo ku fasiraya in Alle uu na amrayo sadex waxyaalood, 1) inaad cafino qofkii na dulmiya, 2) xiriirino kii na jara, 3) qofkii waxiisa noo diidana aanu anaga wax siino kuu diidana adiga aad wax siiso.