The founders of Moqdishu the persian Bazrangids

[Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar]

Someone does not even know the pictures he is posting. Apparently.

 

 

This is Sheekh Abbaa. The Malaaq of Malaaqs of Banaadiriga, a very respected man who still lives in Xamarweyne. Since when did he become a 'Sawaaxili?'

 

He is Banaadiri, a Reer Xamar. Far from Sawaaxili, who you allude to mean Bajuunis. Reer Banaadiri and Bajuunis are not and never were the same.

 

 

Another Banaadiri. This man lives in my own city of Koronto. You can find him every salaadda jimco at Taariiq [Taric] masaajid.

 

 

Another misleading. This guy is the son of Sheegoow Bishaaro, a well-known man who u halgamay for Soomaaliya's independence in the old days and a member of SYL, the first of nascent guddoomiyaha baarlamaanka in the trusteeship. Yes, the guy Big Brother, the British version, ayuu ku jiray.

 

All those people's pictures you brought are not Bajuunis. They are Banaadiris, which you obviously cannot even distinguish.

 

Bajuunis do indeed live in Southern Soomaaliya, but they were always limited to fringes of coastal areas, from Baraawe to Raaskambooni, and beyond Soomaaliya to Mombaasa to Sansibaar to Musambiik.

 

Who we, however, shared the southern part of the country in the ancient times were Oromos, particularly Booramaha. They lived the interiors of Jubbooyinka and Shabeellaha. It is widely documented the fierce fights between Soomaalida and Oromada in this region -- Soomaalida who always banded together when the fight involved 'shisheeye' and Soomaali. The Oromo later retreated to the present historical boundary, which was when the colonials arrived uninvited.

 

Bajuunis [or as you call them 'Sawaaxili' people] never lived in the interiors. You are badly mistaking them the later arrivals of what foreigners now call 'Bantus,' who were brought from Tansaaniya, Malaawi and Musambiik by Carabs to work their plantation fields in 18th and 19th centuries.

[Chimera]

Originally posted by KEYNAN22:

yes, but the swahilis existed before omanis colonizing those coasts. Todays swahilis are an amalgation of persians, arabs and native stock.

quoting from Brother Abu G post's

 

The evidence strongly suggests that historical Swahili people are descendants of Bantu and Cushitic speaking people who settled along the East African coast in the first millennium

 

Didn't you read the parent post about the Bazrangi persians who settled in east Africa before the advent of islam?

He argued that the Persians had a period of settlement in southern Somalia before they landed in Kilwa Kisiwani (Horton, 1996). It is important to note here that for some unknown reasons, Chittick in his later two volumes work on Kilwa (Chittick, 1974) avoided association of the towns’ population with Persians. Instead he advanced the town’s population as an amalgamation of Arabs and Africans by which albeit the latter constituted the greater part of the amalgam, they were however absorbed into the society as wives, slaves or otherwise (ibid:245). In Manda, Chittick revived his old idea of colonisers from Shiraz in Persia. That he did on the basis of mainly excavated imported pottery. He modified the idea a little bit by arguing that, the initial point of settlement of the Shiraz Persians was not southern Somalia as earlier contended but the Lamu archipelago

 

 

what a shift and LMAO @ pottery

 

Again moqdishu is a name derived from the persian language and existed way before the arabs settled their (before islam).

and Mogadishu existed way before them ''Serapion''

 

founded communities in this area which latter flourished and became the powerfull trading cities of Moqdishu, brava

the first being called Serapion (Mogadishu) and the second being Nicon (Brawa); - and after that several rivers and other anchorages -Ariano di Nicomedia (60 AD)

 

and kismayo among others during the middle ages.

Kismayo didn't even exist then

 

Somali n9omads were no where to be seen at that time.

again

 

The Somalis form a subgroup of the Omo-Tana called Sam. Having split from the main stream of Cushite peoples about the first half of the first millennium B.C., the proto-Sam appear to have spread to the grazing plains of northern Kenya, where proto Sam communities seem to have followed the Tana River and to have reached the Indian Ocean coast well before the first century A.D. On the coast, the proto-Sam splintered further; one group (the Boni) remained on the Lamu Archipelago, and the other moved northward to populate southern Somalia. There the group's members eventually developed a mixed economy based on farming and animal husbandry, a mode of life still common in southern Somalia. Members of the proto-Sam who came to occupy the Somali Peninsula were known as the so-called Samaale, or Somaal, a clear reference to the mythical father figure of the main Somali clan-families, whose name gave rise to the term Somali.

 

The Samaale again moved farther north in search of water and pasturelands. They swept into the vast O-gaden plains, reaching the southern shore of the Red Sea by the first century A.D. German scholar Bernard Heine, who wrote in the 1970s on early Somali history, observed that the Samaale had occupied the entire Horn of Africa by approximately 100 A.D

 

from Abu G

 

Pastoral-Cushitic group from the Rift Valley and northern part of Kenya (see Horton, 1984, 1987, 1990; Abungu, 1989, 1994). On the basis of excavated cattle and camel bones, Horton (1984, 1987) argued that the Pastoral-Cushitic people founded a number of settlements in the northern coast of Kenya between the 8th and 10th century.

 

[Chimera]

however the northern regions of todays somalia was inhabitated by somalis, such as Zeyla, Bender khasim etc. And also the muslim states of Ifatand Adal before being destroyed or annexed by the Abyssinians.

Adal Empire was a multi ethnic State and Somalis were living side by side with their fellow cushitite muslim brothers and sisters (a dream of mine is that we return to this era..we almost did)

 

and it was the Oromo's who gave the deathblow to Adal

 

First of all "cushitic" in modern times is a linguistic term not ethnical/racial and was coined by joseph greenberg in the 19th century so to describe non-semetic speaking groups in the horn, and for sure Ibn battuta never used this word in his accounts when he came to somalia in the 13th century.

don't play semantics with me if you can look up the recent definition of name cushitic and it's reason for use regarding Somali and Afar as you just did then you wouldn't have a problem looking up the use of ''Swahili'' in ancient times and you would find out for yourself that the definition of Swahilli ment coast or shore therefore claiming the ancient coastal people were of one ethnic or linguestic background is a fallacy and Abu G's info supports this

 

This included northern sudanese the maghrebians, tuaregs and even somalis be it the settlers of the swahili coast and the pastoralist somalis, there is no single passage in his book where he goes into physical details which could tell us that this were somali nomads rather than the somali swahilis.

then you should stop claiming we weren't there since i could switch your silly argument and say the modern Swahilis were never described in detail by Ibn Battuta which would tell us they weren't really there

 

very poor analogy, the rashaida of eritrea have the same lifestyle as ethnic somalis, both are nomads

aaaa please the Ottomans were nomads and majority of their people continued to be nomads during their unbelievable expansion through Asia,Europe and Africa,and by your logic Arabs shouldn't be builders of civilizations because they were sheep herders

 

people like you who have a inferiority complex regarding their people disgust me you look down on nomadism despite the fact that great states were created by the same nomads

 

you swallow every nonsense they throw at you

 

'''Somalis had no writting system before the 70's'''

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadaad's_writing

 

^^what is this how was Turkish written in the Ottoman era?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmanya_script

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borama_script

 

wow that's 2 more indiginous writing systems than half of Europe

 

this is just one example of what these colonial writers do in their writing either they exclude facts or attribute everything African and great to foreigners

 

who don't have the incentive to settle and create cities unlike the axumites and the swahilis who had sedentary societies.

Harar was booming throughout the middle ages because of the skilled Somali traders especially during Adal's peak

 

lee cassanelli mentions Ajuuran Settlements and ruins throughout Southern Somalia and Somali Galbeed and NFD

 

all of them had sedentary and pastoralist societies

 

Also the rashaida fled to Sudan and eritrea less than a century ago after the Saud clan captured the whole of todays Saudi arabia and the Rashaida clan belonged to one of the Sauds rival clans.

So Makkah must have been build by foreigners cause after all they were sheep herders or camel riders and the ones that escaped became nomads in East Africa :rolleyes:

[Chimera]

MMA the language they speak chimini is only recently been classified as ''Swahili'' but it has nothing to do with the ancient definition of the term

 

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

is it true that there were no Somalis in Southern Somalia prior to 1500 AD?

 

Of course not. Linguistic analysis (Fleming, Habarland et al) firmly puts Somalis in that part of the world at least by 500 AD if not earlier. More pertinent to this discusion, there are references of Somali clans -- hence documentation of Somali presence -- for the first time in history by the 13th century arab traveller Ibn Said (1214-87 AD). According to Ibn Said Marka was in the land of a particular Somali clan that still lives in that part of the world. He goes on to mention that the clan lived in 50 or so villiages as well as the landscape describing the Shabelle river in vivid terms. You can even go back a hundred years relying on Al-Idrisi (1100-1166 AD), in the Nuzhat, where he mentions the presence of Somali clans in the same vicinity. Evidently Somalis lived in Southern Somalia at least since 500 AD which discredits your assertion that there were no Somalis in that part of the world prior to 1500 AD.

:cool: :cool:

[Fabregas]

Originally posted by Socod_Badne

 

 

Of course not. Linguistic analysis (Fleming, Habarland et al) firmly puts Somalis in that part of the world at least by 500 AD if not earlier. More pertinent to this discusion, there are references of Somali clans -- hence documentation of Somali presence -- for the first time in history by the 13th century arab traveller Ibn Said (1214-87 AD). According to Ibn Said Marka was in the land of a particular Somali clan that still lives in that part of the world. He goes on to mention that the clan lived in 50 or so villiages as well as the landscape describing the Shabelle river in vivid terms. You can even go back a hundred years relying on Al-Idrisi (1100-1166 AD), in the Nuzhat, where he mentions the presence of Somali clans in the same vicinity. Evidently Somalis lived in Southern Somalia at least since 500 AD which discredits your assertion that there were no Somalis in that part of the world prior to 1500 AD. [/QB]

Yes, this was the information i was looking for.I read a while back about the Arab scholars descriptions about Somali clans.Al Hamawi also referred to a somali presence. You would think Somalis appeared out of thin air, the way some people believe these arab ancestory and mass somali migration theories!Maybe we are aliens?

 

MMA,have you read a book called "Geledi state"?You are right there was some Oromo presence in Southern Somalia.If i remember correctly they were referred to as "Galla Madow". However at the time we are taking about, the oromo where utterly defeated by the Somalis. Therefore the Arab historians refer to Somalis dominating the coastal and interior and coastal towns.Also it was the Somali who had converted en masse to Islam at this point.Al Idrisi, Al Hamawi, Ibn said and even Ibn Batuta all either refer to the "Somali" or the "Berberi", clearly the Black Berberi and the Somali are the same people, with regards to the towns being mentioned. Al idris even mentions the Somali clan "Howiye" as living in fifty villages and cities such as Marka.All this evidence clearly defeats Kenyan's argument that Muqdisho was founded by Persians and that Somalis had not migrated to Southern Somalia till the 15 century!

 

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=sMlC0ulVz_oC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=al+idrisi+somalia&source=web&ots=3pnzAxM9yQ&sig=22Z4anuWfLB0nyfezhdVW-hoTsA#PRA12-PA136,M1

[Chimera]

we might speculate that both religiously and militarily the Ajuraan confederation provided a bulwark against the Oromo who, from the middle of the sixteenth century were expanding dramatically in all directions from their homeland -Lee Cassanelli Pastoral Power

[ElPunto]

Letterman et al - couple of questions

 

1- What explains the concentration of 'non-pure' cushitic communities in the coastal cities ie Banadiri, Bravanese etc and particularly their dwelling in the oldest parts of these cities(before the war at least)?

 

2- You cite the mention of Mogadishu, Brava etc using other more ancient names for them - yet the plethora of documentary evidence comes from a later era - one concurrent with the rise of the Swahili city-states further south. Why is that the case do you think? Why is the mention of the city states in Somalia so sparse before the rise of similar city-states further south?

 

3- Is it your theorem that because the Somalis had an ancient presence throughtout the whole of the Horn - that they must necessarily have founded the coastal city-states in Somalia? Or is there more conclusive evidence than the mention of a Berberi chief and Berberi speakers?

[Chimera]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

Letterman et al - couple of questions

 

1- What explains the concentration of 'non-pure' cushitic communities in the coastal cities ie Banadiri, Bravanese etc and particularly their dwelling in the oldest parts of these cities(before the war at least)?

There ancestors came as merchants especially during Omani rule in the 18th century over Banadir and eventually they settled in these places but this doesn't mean they arrived at a empty spot

 

ethnic Hararis today live in the oldest sections of Harar but still doesn't change the fact....

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/abu-bakr-ibn-muhammad

 

2- You cite the mention of Mogadishu, Brava etc using other more ancient names for them - yet the plethora of documentary evidence comes from a later era - one concurrent with the rise of the Swahili city-states further south. Why is that the case do you think? Why is the mention of the city states in Somalia so sparse before the rise of similar city-states further south?

Not much research has been done regarding Greek/Roman sources covering this area 2 millenia's ago, therefore it's not fair to say Arab sources are what define Mogadishu's character as a trading civilization in ancient times allthough you have a point since Mogadishu did not come on to the International(world wide) stage untill the 13th century when it controlled the gold trade,(this same era saw numerous explorers visit these trading states wich would explain the amount of literature about these states) but it still doesnt mean we should neglect Greek/Roman sources

 

3- Is it your theorem that because the Somalis had an ancient presence throughtout the whole of the Horn - that they must necessarily have founded the coastal city-states in Somalia? Or is there more conclusive evidence than the mention of a Berberi chief and Berberi speakers?

Actually my stand is very simple, they use a method where they make personal interpretations of ancient texts and put so and so ''here'' and so and so ''there'' excluding my people( which were regarded as Arab migrants or newcomers) in the process despite enough evidence contradicting this with a Somali/Cushtic presence being there since 1 century AD

 

when one looks at their arguments -either their based on

 

-excavations of pottery and coins ( which could easily have been simple trade commodities that were imported)

 

-or it has a anti-Africans can't build civilizations flavour around it (Supremecist era)

 

Being Nomads doesnt mean you can't build cities and towns see Seljuqs

[ElPunto]

^Interesting responses.

 

You're right that being nomads doesn't mean you can't/don't build cities ie. Ottomans etc. But the process of building cities changes the nature of the populace and transforms them into sedentary communities. The Ottoman nomads did build great cities(or greatly expanded them) but that building changed them and they were no longer nomads. That same process doesn't seem to have occurred for large segments of the Somali population if they did build the city=states in both the north and the south of the country.

[Chimera]

Originally posted by ThePoint:

^Interesting responses.

 

You're right that being nomads doesn't mean you can't/don't build cities ie. Ottomans etc. But the process of building cities changes the nature of the populace and transforms them into sedentary communities. The Ottoman nomads did build great cities(or greatly expanded them) but that building changed them and they were no longer nomads. That same process doesn't seem to have occurred for large segments of the Somali population if they did build the city=states in both the north and the south of the country.

Actually this is not true large part of the traditional Turkish nomads were transformed into city people by Kemal Ataturk's reforms from the late 30's onwards

 

even till today they have a strict policy of turning all of their nomads into sedentary folk ( A BBC doc called ''Traveling through Tangerine about Ibn Battuta'' showed Turkish nomads refusing to settle into cities), the Last Somali government was doing the same and in 1 programme had turned 140 000 nomads into city people and more would have followed in similar programmes, irronically today Somali Urbanisation growth is one of the highest in Africa with growth rate of 8/9% (allthough it has it's down sides i.e clean water electricity but local entrepreneurs seem to be managing this)