Racial Type of Somalia

[Khalaf]

Taliban ....bro dont twist things inshallah....i remember my uncle once said to me u can not be friends with girls, look at girls, speak to girls only if your interested in marriage....thats not possible......moderation is islam ninyahow....inshallah lets stick to the topic....what do u think sxb? in particular about africa connection to beginning of man? doesnt Islam say mecca, arabiya........

[Taliban]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

......moderation is islam ninyahow....

I see you're moderate; good to know that.

[Khalaf]

Originally posted by Taliban:

quote:Originally posted by Khalaf:

......moderation is islam ninyahow....

I see you're moderate; good to know that.

why do u want to twist things bro .....the nabi scw said you are the middle nation...

 

 

ps: can u answer the earlier question or no sxb? geography location on earth of beginning....according to islam....uma check on dat inshallah tho

[Chimera]

Originally posted by Khalaf:

Brothers keep it going, very informative.

david u say Somalis, east Africans are indengious period....what exactly does that mean sxb?

as in they are not recent migrants to East Africa and the enlongated phenotype is homegrown

 

the east Africans you see today are direct descendants of the Ancients ones,therefore it's not East Africans who look like Europeans or Arabs it's Europeans and Arabs who look like East Africans

 

it's like saying to a father you look like your son!

 

It is said the most ancient genes are traced to Africa too humanity started out looking like the bantus i guess

not neccessary the oldest fossils were found in Ethiopia

 

but you know they go to far back for me i stop at 60 kya

 

everything after that feels to blasphemous for me (monkey talk)

 

...also why the difference between mainland chustic Somalis, Bantus

Climate Adaptation

 

Somalis and Ethiopians are also known as Tropical Africans

 

http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/nercAFRICA.html

 

...if u say its indengenious? EP73 stuff I don’t get lol .... N Somalis generally vs. Ethiopians vs. oroma one can tell the difference majority of the times.

why do you say N. Somalis as if there is a big difference between Northern Somalis and Southern Somalis? (that's ridicilious)

 

and see my earlier analogy of the Dutch girl and the German boy (it's all about the environment)

 

you would have a much harder time spotting a Somali in Oromia evendo they could be passing you one by one without you noticing it

 

this is why the Oromo's taking shelter in Somalia intergrated so easily in Somali society for the last 2 generations

 

I dislike to use pics of sisters but this girl looks exactly like my eritrean friend.......from my friends Ethiopians n Eritreans.....we Somalis and Eritrean look more similar:

Lol Eritrean = Beja, Afar, Tigre, Tigrayan, Rashaida, etc etc

[Chimera]

our beja cousins

 

http://lost-oasis.org/bw2.html

 

beautiful sista

[Centurion]

You sure do litter the place with a lot of scientific 'data' for a non-scientist.

 

Okay, let me start with your use of Hiernaux, whose research dates back from 1975. Hardly modern, and on top of that, the table you have added is very crude, there are distinct genomic differences between West/Sudanese and Cushitic Africans. Hence tabling them in the same category of 'long Africans' isnt acceptable.

 

We need to understand what we are discussing first. You are too keen to highlight indigenousness of Somalis, and miss other things.

 

It is irrefutable that 90% of the time one can tell a Somali from a non-Somali.

 

Hence, there must be a significant phenotypic difference between Somalis and other Cushitic branches.

 

Somalis are predominantly Cushitic, there is no doubt about that, you CAN argue that Cushites are the first people ever to walk the earth, and therefore we are as indigenous as indigeous can be. That would be a valid argument.

In fact it is even believed that the ancient egyptians were ancient Somalis who migrated to Egypt!

 

 

My point however is that, we are different from other East Africans, due to generations of interbreeding with Arabs and other races, the primary factor contributing to this being the Sea which has for hundreds of years exposed us to other ethnic groups, Oromos, Amxaaro and Rwandese have always lived in landlocked areas.

 

The Levant and 'The seven daughters of Eve' have been on my Anthropology booklist for a very long time, i will get round to reading them.

 

Lets cut to the heart of the matter, shall we?

 

Nobody on this planet is pure that is my point so one should not isolate Somali people as being mixed and others as not cause Genetics destroys these myths

My point was that Somalis are different from Amxaaro/oromo/tigray, genomically and significantly enough in phenotype to allow them to be indentified.

 

I did not imply that they are the only ones who have external influences in their genome.

[Chimera]

Originally posted by Centurion:

You sure do litter the place with a lot of scientific 'data' for a non-scientist.

 

Okay, let me start with your use of Hiernaux, whose research dates back from 1975. Hardly modern, and on top of that,

oh i see the Somalis of today are taller than the ones from the 70's right??

 

the table you have added is very crude, there are distinct genomic differences between West/Sudanese and Cushitic Africans. Hence tabling them in the same category of 'long Africans' isnt acceptable.

you didn't understand the table did you? no problem brother neither did i in the beginning, what you see on the Table has nothing to do with Genetic lineages it illustrates the height and crania measurements of various african groups so therefore if a group has similarities with another ''it is acceptable'' to put them in the same category

 

We need to understand what we are discussing first. You are too keen to highlight indigenousness of Somalis, and miss other things.

what is there to miss? the studies speak for themselves if your looking for a disambigious origin for Somalis than of course what i have presented will not satisfy you since they contradict this

 

It is irrefutable that 90% of the time one can tell a Somali from a non-Somali.

it's simply hearsay, the images i gave you of other East Africans would confuse any Somali

 

Hence, there must be a significant phenotypic difference between Somalis and other Cushitic branches.

any Germanic subgroup member(belgian in this case) will claim he/she can spot their belgian compatriot from a German but a Somali would not know the difference between them

 

just like a Non East African would not know wether those people in the images are either Afar or Oromo or Somali

 

so phenotypic difference? no! simple patriotism yes!

 

Somalis are predominantly Cushitic, there is no doubt about that, you CAN argue that Cushites are the first people ever to walk the earth, and therefore we are as indigenous as indigeous can be. That would be a valid argument.

In fact it is even believed that the ancient egyptians were ancient Somalis who migrated to Egypt!

There was no such thing as Egyptians or Somalis or any other name of a modern group during that era

 

My point however is that, we are different from other East Africans, due to generations of interbreeding with Arabs and other races,

Ad nauseum! have you even taken the time to read my previous posts? quite disrepectfull!

 

i allready refuted these lame myths

 

the primary factor contributing to this being the Sea which has for hundreds of years exposed us to other ethnic groups, Oromos, Amxaaro and Rwandese have always lived in landlocked areas.

yet Amhara's carry J lineages at a frequency of 30%

 

My point was that Somalis are

different

from Amxaaro/oromo/tigray, genomically and significantly enough in phenotype to allow them to be indentified.

 

I did not imply that they are the only ones who have external influences in their genome.

iskadaaf sxb it's futile to continue since..

 

1 No matter how much info i provide, you will not be satisfied with it since your on a quest to B-astardize Somali people

 

kinda like Shariff Seliyci and his Hashimite/Mahdi craze

 

2 your Patriotism for your own people in a strange way blinds you from the obvious truth that Somali people resembles Oromo's and Afars to the point when one changes it traditional clothing an outsider would not be able to recognise who is who

 

I think it would be good if you visited East Africa, places like Djibouti or D-ir Dhaba and see for yourself

[Centurion]

Dave,

obviously the people who (if ever) migrated from Somalia to Egypt weren't called Somali, but they were from Puntland, and thus our ancestors.

 

Here's an interesting thread you might want to read here

 

Regarding Hiernaux, i'm dealing with the Somali Genome, not comparisons of nose lenghts.

 

Are you refuting the fact that the Somali genome is different to that of the Amxaaro,Oromo and Tigray?

 

For that is my main point i keep reiterating, followed by my view that an average Somali (Neither Bantu or Rer Xamar) is distinguishable from amongsts his Cushitic brethren.

 

Although i am patriotic to a fault, i think this is more than just a fancy, i think its a known fact. An Amxaar is not a Somali up to the point he opens his mouth. Of course the Cushitic branches blend to create folk who are simply undistinguishable from Somalis, but more often than not a Somali has a distinctive look!

 

Disambigious origin?

I dont remember questioning the origin of our people.

And you accuse me of not reading your posts!

 

any Germanic subgroup member(belgian in this case) will claim he/she can spot their belgian compatriot from a German but a Somali would not know the difference between them

 

just like a Non East African would not know wether those people in the images are either Afar or Oromo or Somali

Listen, its straight forward really.

It is a fact that our genome isnt identical to that of other Cushitic branches.

As the Genotype causes the Phenotype, Somalis must be phenotypically different.

Now we look very similar to Amxaaro/Oromo because our genome is very similar to theirs, but there is a difference!

So it follows logically that phenotypically (even if slightly) we must be different, whether this is clearly identifiable is another issue.

 

Your refute the 'lame myth' of Arab/Asian influence in the Somali genome?

 

lol,You think Islam is the only thing they left us with?

[Khalaf]

"why do you say N. Somalis as if there is a big difference between Northern Somalis and Southern Somalis? (that's ridicilious) "

 

lool@ dave, bro N= and............n thanks for info....

[Chimera]

Centurion my fellow Kaaskop let me again show you the fallacy of your argument, case in point you give me a link who's topic starter commits the same error your making

 

example: from the link

 

research has shown that the average Somali is genetically only 15% Caucasian, which includes Arabs, North Africans, as well as Europeans. The rest of the Somali genome consists of 5% Sub-Saharan African genes, and the remaining 80% consists of Cushitic genes.

 

this person doesn't know the difference between Paternal lineages and Maternal lineages, if he did he would know that Paternal(Father)(Y) is 50% of your Dna structure and Maternal(Mother)(MtDNA) is the other 50% so when he picks little pieces from the Paternal lineages study and says Somalis are 20% something else and 80% cushitic he bassicly in others words simply said Somalis are 130% Cushitic (Hoyoo's side's contribution remember? 50%) because of his misinterpretation of the study

 

this same person also doesn't know that this test was a group test and not individual cases wich explains his error on the Y(Abo)+X(Hoyoo)= baby math

 

when you understand these studies then you will realize for yourself Islam is indeed the only thing they left us with ( and a lot of myths that evolved in to a disgusting system )

 

when i have spread this new Truth to the new generation these young patriots will drop the neolithic system and have loyalty only for ''Somali'' yep yep

 

regarding the Somali looks i can only speak for myself but if those ladies in the images i provided started talking english to me instead of their native tongues i would definitly mistake them for a diasporic compatriot

 

Khalaf sorry brother i get static when i see disunity, many times have i seen Somalis say these things in front of Ajenabi which is very shamefull and i need to put them straight directly

[Centurion]

Dave,

 

 

East Africans are more related to Eurasians than to other African populations.

1, 2, 3 Investigations of Y chromosome markers have shown that the East African populations were not significantly affected by the east bound Bantu expansion that took place approximately 3500 years ago, while a

significant contact to Arab and Middle East populations can be deduced from the present distribution of the Y chromosomes in these areas.

4, 5 The Y chromosome haplogroup E3a is found at high frequencies in the sub-Saharan, Bantu-speaking populations but at low frequencies in East Africa, while Eurasian haplogroups like J and K are found at various frequencies in East Africa.3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 However, the majority of Y chromosomes found in populations in Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and Oromos in Somalia and North Kenya (Boranas) belong to haplogroup E3b1 defined by the Y chromosome marker M78.9, 10 A special branch of E3b1, cluster , which was defined by the presence of the otherwise rare Y STR allele 11 in DYS19, was observed in high frequencies in small samples of male Boranas (Oromos) in , while the E3b1 cluster was found in

low frequencies in non-Oromos from Ethiopia

, Bantus from Kenya, North Egyptians10 and was almost absent in populations outside the Horn of Africa. Other clusters of haplogroup E3b1 (, and ) that are found in European, Arab, North and East African populations were not found in Oromos from North Kenya (Boranas) or Ethiopia, and found in only one of 23 Somali males.10

 

We typed a set of 45 biallelic markers and 11 STR systems on the Y chromosome in a large population of male Somali immigrants to Denmark in order to define their Y chromosome lineages in details. In addition, 65 sub-Saharan Western Africans, 59 Turks, and 64 Iraqis were typed for the biallelic Y chromosome markers. The results were compared to those obtained in other relevant populations.

 

That is the introduction of a key genetic article the source is here

 

 

research has shown that the average Somali is genetically only 15% Caucasian, which includes Arabs, North Africans, as well as Europeans. The rest of the Somali genome consists of 5% Sub-Saharan African genes, and the remaining 80% consists of Cushitic genes.

 

this person doesn't know the difference between Paternal lineages and Maternal lineages, if he did he would know that Paternal(Father)(Y) is 50% of your Dna structure and Maternal(Mother)(MtDNA) is the other 50% so when he picks little pieces from the Paternal lineages study and says Somalis are 20% something else and 80% cushitic he bassicly in others words simply said Somalis are 130% Cushitic (Hoyoo's side's contribution remember? 50%) because of his misinterpretation of the study

You have misinterpereted the study. A genome is a whole set of DNA of a homogeneous group.

Hence if a genome has for example 15% eurasian content, it means that 15% of the genes are from Eurasian origin.

It doesnt mean that 15% of the samples were european which you are implying.

 

So to conclude

 

-The Somali genome has a significant Eurasian influence

-Somalis are genetically significantly different to Amxaaro and vastly different to Sub saharan Africans, but are close cousins with Oromos.

 

These are scientifically proven facts.

 

Whether Somalis can be identified from Non-Somalis is another issue, but one which is known to be true by the overriding majority of Somalis.

[Chimera]

Originally posted by Centurion:

Dave,

 

 

East Africans are more related to Eurasians than to other African populations.

1, 2, 3 Investigations of Y chromosome markers have shown that the East African populations were not significantly affected by the east bound Bantu expansion that took place approximately 3500 years ago,

that's nonsense E3a is what West Africans carry E3b is what East Africans carry, both of them connect through the PN2-clade

 

how are lineages like K2 or Rb1 closer to East Africans than E3a a direct descendant of E3?

 

there talking about the Intermediate position

 

Intermediate position

 

 

In general, populations cluster by geographic origin. The most distinct separation is between African and non-African populations. The northeastern-African -- that is, the Ethiopian and Somali -- populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations." These studies suggest a recent and primary subdivision between African and non-African populations, high levels of divergence among African populations, and a recent shared common ancestry of non-African populations, from a population originating in Africa. The intermediate position, between African and non-African populations, that the Ethiopians and Somalis occupy in the PCA plot also has been observed in other genetic studies (Ritte et al. 1993; Passarino et al. 1998) and could be due either to shared common ancestry or to recent gene flow. The fact that the Ethiopians and Somalis have a subset of the sub-Saharan African haplotype diversity and that the non-African populations have a subset of the diversity present in Ethiopians and Somalis makes simple-admixture models less likely; rather, these observations support the hypothesis proposed by other nuclear-genetic studies (Tishkoff et al. 1996a, 1998a, 1998b; Kidd et al. 1998) that populations in northeastern Africa may have diverged from those in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa early in the history of modern African populations and that a subset of this northeastern-African population migrated out of Africa and populated the rest of the globe. These conclusions are supported by recent mtDNA analysis (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999).

 

 

while a

significant contact to Arab and Middle East populations can be deduced from the present distribution of the Y chromosomes in these areas.

not significant enough to change the Somali people's phenotype and this was the only reason why i provided all these peer reviewed Date which refutes that claim

 

the majority of Y chromosomes found in populations in Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia and Oromos in Somalia and North Kenya (Boranas) belong to haplogroup E3b1 defined by the Y chromosome marker M78.9, 10 A special branch of E3b1, cluster , which was defined by the presence of the otherwise rare Y STR allele 11 in DYS19, was observed in high frequencies in small samples of male Boranas (Oromos) in , while the E3b1 cluster was found in

low frequencies in non-Oromos from Ethiopia

Just stop it brother please..

 

the fact that you highlighted that part to support your claim again shows clearly you know nothing about E3b lineages

 

e3b1 underived lineage is found almost solely in East Africa, especially among Somali. It is not found outside of East Africa

 

E3b1 delta is the oldest defined cluster, it's present in the horn and most commonly in the Nile Valley and also spread through the Levantine in the East,This tells us how Levantines and Southern Europeans received African ancestry, and why Arabs, Jews and Greeks in particular retain significant E3b lineages

 

E3b1 gamma is the signature cluster of many/most Cushitic speakers in the horn - the Somali, Borana, and Oromo have this cluster.

 

then you have E3b2 E3b3 etc etc with the oromo case they were talking about 1 lineage which they don't have at a high frequency compared to other groups they were not talking about the multiple other E3b lineages

 

[Chimera]

research has shown that the average Somali is genetically only 15% Caucasian, which includes Arabs, North Africans, as well as Europeans. The rest of the Somali genome consists of 5% Sub-Saharan African genes, and the remaining 80% consists of Cushitic genes.

I wrote

 

this person doesn't know the difference between Paternal lineages and Maternal lineages, if he did he would know that Paternal(Father)(Y) is 50% of your Dna structure and Maternal(Mother)(MtDNA) is the other 50% so when he picks little pieces from the Paternal lineages study and says Somalis are 20% something else and 80% cushitic he bassicly in others words simply said Somalis are 130% Cushitic (Hoyoo's side's contribution remember? 50%) because of his misinterpretation of the study

you wrote

 

You

have misinterpereted the study. A genome is a whole set of DNA of a homogeneous group.

no you need to read my replies more carefully cause you continue to make the same mistake, we were discussing a study about Paternal lineages calling it a complete set is oxymoronic if the study was discussing Paternal and Maternal then it would make sense but it didn't!!

 

the guy from your first link copied info from the study and then typed it the wrong way in his own words because he didn't understand the study( are you him? )

 

In conclusion, the data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population – closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya (Boranas) – with predominant E3b1 cluster DYS392-12 lineages that probably were introduced into the Somali population 4000–5000 years ago, approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia

 

of ever 100 Somali males = 85 males who have no Eurasian Paternal lineages

 

the 15 males who do.. might only have 5 to 10 % Eurasian lineages wich is simply insignificant to change the person's phenotype

 

a Somali male doing a DNA test will have a 85% chance of having no Paternal Eurasian lineages

 

how did those 85 males get their phenotype?

 

Hence if a genome has for example 15% eurasian content, it means that 15% of the genes are from Eurasian origin.

It doesnt mean that 15% of the samples

were european which you are implying.

i never said that

 

i said..

 

the east Africans you see today are direct descendants of the Ancients ones,therefore it's not East Africans who look like Europeans or Arabs it's Europeans and Arabs who look like East Africans

since it was you who implied that Somali have to thank Non Somalis for their looks

 

these are your own words

 

The Somali genotype is not indigenous, because our genome contains 15% eurasian genes

My point was that Somalis are different from Amxaaro/oromo/tigray, genomically and significantly enough in phenotype to allow them to be indentified.

Your refute the 'lame myth' of Arab/Asian influence in the Somali genome?

it must be the other 20% which causes the subtle differences in physical appearance or phenotype.

let me repeat myself

 

a Somali male doing a DNA test will have a 85% chance of having no Paternal Eurasian lineages

 

how did those 85 males get their phenotype?

 

Untill you can answer this question the burden of proof rests on your side

 

let us continue

 

you said

The average Somali for example is taller than his East African counterparts, i'm not saying that is the cause of 15% eurasian genes, but height is certainly something Somalis are better known for than our neighbours.

I gave you measurements done by Hiernaux and you suddenly came with red herrings

 

why?

[Chimera]

So to conclude

 

-The Somali genome has a significant Eurasian influence

not significant enough to change the Somali Phenotype

 

The haplogroup K2 was found in 10.4% of Somali males. Haplogroup K2 was suggested to have arisen in Eurasia., K2 has a patchy distribution in Cameroon (18.0%), Egypt (8.2%), Ethiopia (4.8%), Tanzania (3.8%) and Morocco (3.6%), probably due to back

 

looool Cameroonians have a higher frequency than Somalis lolololololololol

 

-

Somalis are genetically significantly different to Amxaaro

Somalis are closer to Amhara's than to any non African group

 

and vastly different to Sub saharan Africans,

ok first Somalia is in Sub Saharan Africa which would make them sub saharan africans

 

second Somalis are connected with west Africans through the PN2 clade

 

but are close cousins with Oromos.

yep

[Centurion]

Dave, old horse, you're thorough, i give you that!

 

OK, let me begin

 

Regarding the samples,and the significance of 15 Eurasian genes, it seems i was wrong, having backtracked to the article from which it was derived, i know understand it to mean that 15% of samples had significant Eurasian lineages.

 

 

I've decided to accept your plea, and actually read your posts, lol.

And you said this

no i reject it i'm not a mixed product i'm a Cushtite and my facial features are indiginious

Now, correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't Cushites a product of Caucasian and Negroid intermixing?

So we are hardly indigenous Africans.

 

We are of course, indigineous Cushites.

 

The whole northern broad extension of the African continent, reaching from Cape Verde in Senegambia to Cape Guardafui in Somalia,has been a contact area between the Caucasians and Negroid races.

 

It is irrefutable that Somalis/Cushitics located in relative close proximity to the sea/ocean were exposed to and influenced by Eurasian genes.

 

Somalis have always lived closer to the Sea than Oromos/Amxaaro, so has that perhaps lead to a more influenced genome? And if so, does that make the Somali phenotype distinguishably different?

 

I believe so, and so am sure does almost everybody else. Like i said an average Somali can be picked out from amongst Oromos and Tigrays.

 

We agree on

-the fact that Amxaaro and oromos(more so) are by far a Somalis closest cousin

-The Somali Genome has been influenced significantly by the eurasian genome.

 

Oh, and Somalia isnt part of Sub-Saharan Africa.

 

So what exactely is je probleem?