According to the QUR'AN and the question of the Holy Trinity

[LayZie G.]

The core doctrine in Christianity is the holy trinity because "The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another."

 

Meaning, the father is not the son, the son is not the holy spirit, nor is the holyspirit the father or son but that the Father is God, the son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, just the one God in all.

 

With that said, how can the Quran interpret it as being many gods when in fact the opposite is true?

 

 

On ayah 5:116 it says:

 

Innallaaha laa yag-firu any-yushraka bihii wa yah-firu maa dunna zaalika limany-yashaa. Wa many-yushrick billaahi faqad zalla zalaalam-ba-iidaa.

Which can be interpreted as not forgiving those who put Allah in the same category as all other Gods in the holy doctrine and that if someone puts him in the company of those other Gods, he has strayed from the path of Allah and so on and so forth.

 

But the reality is that Catholics and most other christian dominations do not believe in the holy trinity as three gods, which says:

the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God, one in substance and will, but distinct in some way, but not divided.

In addition to that, on chapter five, verse 116, it says:

 

 

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

To this end, some interpret it as Jesus misrepresenting himself as God, along with his mother mary, which can be further from the truth...

 

 

will add more examples later....

 

for now, it seems that many of the translations in the quran are lost because it dismisses the "Gods", to which it was never declared as more than one.

 

Once, a friend theologian told me that just as the miracle of jesus's birth is from God and can not be explained, so is the explaination behind understanding the holy trinity of christian doctrine. He says its a phenomena

[Haatu]

Are you questioning the word of Allah?

[LayZie G.]

^no little lady. I'm questioning the arabic translation and how the question of trinity is interpreted in different versions of the Kitaab.

[Geel_jire]

^ what different versions of the kitab are you referring to ?

[Maaddeey]

'My favorite religion' ma sidan bey dhashay?

[N.O.R.F]

Christianity is not Catholism. Catholism was developed by the Roman church much later. Orthodox Christianity is more credible than Catholism.

 

The answer to the question is easy to find. You seem to have delved into reading around Catholism with energy and vigour but are reluctant to do the same with regard to Islam.

 

Anyway, hope you google search the word 'tafseer'.

[Haatu]

Originally posted by LayZie G.:

^no little lady. I'm questioning the arabic translation and how the question of trinity is interpreted in different versions of the Kitaab.

heh. Childish really.

[Maaddeey]

Once, a friend theologian told me that just as the miracle of jesus's birth is from God and can not be explained, so is the explaination behind understanding the holy trinity of christian doctrine. He says its a phenomena

what else could he say? 3=1 and 1=3, most cathoilcs oo revert to Islam do it because of Trinity, bal sheekadan Sh. Yusuf Estes 'former minister' si fiican u akhri

Our family and their ancestors not only built the churches and schools across this land, but actually were the same ones who came here in the first place. While I was still in elementary we relocated in Houston, Texas in 1949 (I'm old). We attended church regularly and I was baptized at the age of 12 in Pasadena, Texas. As a teenager, I wanted to visit other churches to learn more of their teachings and beliefs. The Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Charismatic movements, Nazarene, Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, Full Gospel, Agape, Catholic, Presbyterian and many more. I developed quite a thirst for the "Gospel" or as we say; "Good News." My research into religion did not stop with Christianity. Not at all. Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Metaphysics, native American beliefs were all a part of my studies. Just about the only one that I did not look into seriously was "Islam". Why? Good question.

Anyway, I became very interested in different types of music, especially Gospel and Classical. Because my whole family was religious and musical it followed that I too would begin my studies in both areas. All this set me for the logical position of Music Minister in many of the churches that I became affiliated with over the years. I started teaching keyboard instruments in 1960 and by 1963 owned my own studios in Laurel, Maryland, called "Estes Music Studios."

Over the next 30 years my father and I worked together in many business projects. We had entertainment programs, shows and attractions. We opened piano and organ stores all the way from Texas and Oklahoma to Florida. I made millions of dollars in those years, but could not find the peace of mind that can only come through knowing the truth and finding the real plan of salvation. I'm sure you have asked yourself the question; "Why did God create me?" or "What is it that God wants me to do?" or "Exactly who is God, anyway?" "Why do we believe in 'original sin?" and "Why would the sons of Adam be forced to accept his 'sins' and then as a result be punished forever. But if you asked anyone these questions,

they would probably tell you that you have to believe without asking, or that it is a 'mystery' and you shouldn't ask.

And then there is the concept of the

'Trinity.' If I would ask preachers or ministers to give me some sort of an idea how 'one' could figure out to become 'three' or how God Himself, Who can do anything He Wills to do, cannot just forgive people's sins, but rather and had to become a man, come down on earth, be a human, and then take on the sins of all people. Keeping in mind that all along He is still God of the whole universe and does as He Wills to do, both in and outside of the universe as we know it.

Then one day in 1991, I came to know that the Muslims believed in the Bible. I was shocked. How could this be? But that's not all, they believe in Jesus as:..

http://www.famousmuslims.com/Yusuf%20Estes.htm

[BOB]

Layzie G

 

 

Waa in nin laguu doono ASAP...waxaad u baahantahay nin kaa saara ruuxaamaha ku haya.

 

 

On a serious note...My dear sister If you have a question about Islam SOL is the worst place to ask trust me on that! because most people in here have a limited knowledge for Islam as they are not well versed enough to answer whatever question you may have and thus end up attacking you directly after failing to explain their point thoroughly.

 

 

I will advice you as your fellow brother in Islam to suspend your public debate/argument about Islam as it does not help anybody including those of us who do not comment but read your comments...in other words kulligeen dambi ayay nagu tahay inaan ku doodno wax aan cilmi u laheyn marka abaayo hadaad u baahantahay in laguu sharxo aayad ka mid ah qu'raanka kariimka ama hadiith waxaan kugula talin lahaa inaa weydiiso dadka cilmiga u leh oo Jaamacad ugasoo baxay.

 

 

Thanks In Advance.

 

 

PS. May Allah s.w guide us all through the righteous path Insha Allah.

 

 

Peace, Love & Unity.

[LayZie G.]

^lol, Bob, thats why its best to lurk and not participate if you can not add more to this subject.

 

Bob, what's wrong with asking questions? Do you think my probing for answers that have long been in contention will somehow diminish Islam in your eyes? C'mon, what are you afraid of?

 

North,so the roman catholic church is not the single largest christian domination?

 

When was the roman catholic church established ya North? And are you saying they are not a christian domination?

 

On the subject of christianity, its expected that I would draw example from the catholic church as thats the church I'm most familiar with.

 

Do you know the position ordothox christianity holds in regards to the holy trinity?

 

Until you do, may I suggest you familiarize yourself with the examples you use.

 

 

Getting back to the topic, if the answer is easy, please do point out the obvious answer to me because I seem to have difficulty grasping these different versions of translations when it comes to the holy trinity.

 

Do not refer me to a tafsiir, bring the verses in question here and explain to me in your own words how you interpret that and then compare it to the established translations from various editions of the Kitaab.

 

My problem is not with the authenticity of the quran but its post-translation version, the meaning appears distorted at times and very difficult to understand from its authentic saying.

 

For example, one translation with this very same chapter I shared says of the verse that on judgement day, Jesus and mary will be judged based on the belief that they represented themselves as divine beings and that in fact, they did not represent themselves as mary and jesus, as son of Mary.

 

Another one says that because of its representation of the many gods, do not believe for you will stray from that path, something to that like...again, this is just past reading I have done on this subject..

 

 

If you can do a better job in translating ya north, you are welcome to do so, if not, please do not waste your time or mine.

With that said, I should have spend more time learning Arabic instead of just memorizing the qur'an for the sake of memorization as a child.

[N.O.R.F]

I doubt you're really looking for an asnwer. If you were you would have posted this in the Islam section. Its another case 'hey look at me I'm learning about catholism'.

 

Enjoy.

[Chocolate and Honey]

Ina Lilah Wa Inaa ileyhi raajicuun. WTF? Are you confused about the Holly Trinity? If so, find a good priest and fire away. Or are you comparing Islam to Christianity? If so, how? OR are you saying Muslims shouldnt regard the Holy Trinity as Shirk? Do you know what SHIRK is? THe terms of Shirk can only be discussed within Islam. It doesnt apply to any other religion. The most fundemental fact is: There is no FATHER or SON period!

[Polanyi]

In Islam anything given divine attributes or worshiped besides Allah becomes a false god. Sometimes these are righteous people and they are free from this. nonetheless,those who give them divine attributes are described as worshiping more than one god. For example, the Quran describes the Christians and Jews as worshiping their rabbis and Monks. When some people asked the prophet how this was possible, he replied by saying that they worshiped them because they allowed their scholars to make whatever they wished prohibted and allowed.Likewise, Christians demonominations may differ as to the exact relationship between the different figures in the trinity, however, they still give divine attributes and worship these figures with Allah, thus technically making them worship two or three different gods. The Christians themselves differ greatly on the exact definition of the trinity.

[General Duke]

LG: You are not opening a debate here. You are insulting our intelligence and for that matter the holly Quran.

what on Earth is the holly trinity? There is no such thing; some confused Roman Catholic garbage at best.

 

You are entering deep waters, we can make light of clan’s political positions and so on, but not the holly Quran.

Also I have had my fair share of RE, classes and at a very young age, I understood Catholicism to be nothing more that the wet dreams of Roman Emperors.

 

Its time for you to stop this madness.

[ailamos]

christians can't seem to go beyond the fact that what they believe in today was decided upon in a documented series of ecumenical councils, starting with the first council of nicaea where Arianism, based on the teachings of Arius from Alexandria that rejected mainstream Trinitarian Christianity, was labeled as heresy and through emperor constantine's power this nicene creed became the standard christian belief, if one was to disagree one was deemed a heretic and put to death.

 

anyway, islam believes in the holy spirit (see below) but obviously not in the same misguided view as christians,

 

"But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His Spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give! (The Holy Quran, 32:9)"

 

"And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our Spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). (The Holy Quran, 66:12)"

what early chrisitians have done is put Jesus on a pedestal, they were so awed by his powers and his message that they started to worship him because, i think, they were of the view that this person is no ordinary human being and such must be worthy of worship... the ecumenical councils solidified the decisions of the bishops (who basically were sort-of mini-Gods themselves in the sense that they laid down what is to be worshipped and what not) and made it law punishable by death...

 

there basically was no ijtihad until the protestant reformation and yet the protestants as well failed to leave the doctrine which was laid down by those early bishops. having said that there are chruches nowadays such as the "United Church of God" that distance themselves from trinitarian views...