Blaming the Mosques for the Sins of Governments

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by Viking:

NGONGE,

A few questions I hope you can answer...

 

1) What do you think of the regimes in Muslim countries?

 

2) Is there currently any single Muslim country you can point at as an example for others to follow?

 

3) What kind of government do you support, a theocratic govt or a secular govt like i.e. Tunisia?

 

4) Do you think violence perpetuated by Muslims can come to an end while their lands are still occupied by foreign forces? Do you think the violence can be stopped while the people are being oppressed by despotic leaders who get support from other nations?

Nicely worked out bunch of leading questions there, Viking.

 

Oh well, I’ll answer anyway and see where this is taking us!

 

For question ONE: the answer is that I don’t really think much of these regimes (from an Islamic perspective). The response for question TWO: is NO, again from an Islamic perspective. Question THREE is slightly more complex but I’ll stick my neck out here and say theocratic (of course my understanding of the word might be different than yours).

 

Question FOUR leaves me with no room for manoeuvre really. You seem to have given me the answer in the question already and whatever conflicting reply I give, I already know it will not meet with your approval!

 

Still, NO I don’t think violence perpetuated by Muslims will come to an end while their lands are still occupied by foreign forces. Shall we play the game of words again and try to separate acts of violence (terror) and those of resistance? I don’t think resistance will or should stop. I also don’t think violence (terror) will stop either; I think it should stop of course.

 

I don’t think the violence (terror) can be stopped while people are being oppressed by despotic leaders, etc, etc...

 

There, I’ve indulged you and, apart from the tiny bits where I could not resist the temptation to be naughty, I believe most of my replies would agree with your preset agenda.

 

 

You do of course realise that your questions reek of a desperate attempt of trying to defend decadent moral positions by appealing to the emotions and implying that the feelings of oppression validate all wrongdoings!

This brings us sliding back to square one again.

[DraGon]

Fight oppression by any means neccessary....Malcolm X

 

Its freedom or death.....especially when your basic human rights is continously violated and the oppressor does not give a damn about your existance

 

WHAT TO DO, Ngonge???

(btw are you sijui)

[NGONGE]

^^^Are you going to apply some rules to this fight? Or, are you going to use Hamurabi’s immortal edict of ‘an eye for an eye’?

 

Your anger and need to resist oppression has to have some thought and logic behind it, saaxib. When Malik Al Shabaaz was spouting all that nonsense, his thought process, nay his entire ideology was that the white man was the devil and there was nothing immoral about killing the devil, by any means necessary. He later on changed his mind (when he was introduced to true Islam, surprisingly enough).

 

What ideology do you use to justify your angry stance?

 

 

Ps

No, I'm not a sujui.

[Viking]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

There, I’ve indulged you and, apart from the tiny bits where I could not resist the temptation to be naughty, I believe most of my replies would agree with your preset agenda.

 

You do of course realise that your questions reek of a desperate attempt of trying to defend decadent moral positions by appealing to the emotions and implying that the feelings of oppression validate all wrongdoings!

This brings us sliding back to square one again.

You are one paranoid son of a man! There are no "preset agendas"; I just wanted to know where you stood on certain issues. The questions I asked do NOT defend any "decadent moral positions" at all so stop your paranoia.

 

Shall we play the game of words again and try to separate acts of violence (terror) and those of resistance? I don’t think resistance will or should stop.

The two go hand in hand...resistance usually involves acts of violence, unless you are a naive Jainist which I don't think you are. The Israelis call the Palestinains' resistance terrorism, so do the Russians regarding Chechens. By doing this, they undermine the legitimacy of the resistance and degrade the freedom fighters to mere criminals. The Mau Mau are a well known and highly respected freedom fighters, but if they were fighting the British in this day and age, they too would be branded "violent terrorists".

[OG_Girl]

To NGONGE,

 

I know and understand that you hate one-line posts, but I would suggest to save your time and energy and just set others straight for once, it is ok to use one-line from time to time

 

I can’t believe you're still repeating your self over and over (unless you enjoying it). The problem is not only that people disagree with you, but they do not even understand what is your point. If you remember you and I talked about it, we disagreed but at least we understood each other. No one disagreeing here that Islam doesn’t allow killing innocent people whatever they are from your enemy side or not but,where Islam or any other way of life tells you to sit and accept oppression? We are refusing the oppression from both our so-called leaders and their supper power. Whatever was Islam or not I believe a great number of us would still choose that path (whatever you call it terrorists).I will not go and talk about what Islam allows me or not. I believe Islam is the “Fitra†and my human nature tells me to take the justice by my hands since no one else protecting us no law or goverments. Our human nature tells us to not sit there and watch them enjoying their freedom and peace while their goverments occupied my land, steal my wealth, kill my innocent people!!Do not accuse me that my anger is driving me to say this but it's my commonsense.If I don't have peace they shouldn't have it either!

 

I agree with you on one thing that many try to create a false impression using their own interpretation taking statements out of context and emphasizing parts, which are clearly in contradiction. Some do this through ignorance, some for convenience, and some quite deliberately for their own selfish ends.

 

Again, whatever you accept or not, we do not have to be a Scholar or Aalem to make an opinion on something. Fiq is within anybody reach, and as you know, there is no kahaniya in Islam. You can go 4 years university(Some just take a short cut and read from online fatwa,copy and paste to prove a point) and can have your own opinion and understanding. The door is open,I know this is not some thing which is good but it's what Islam today is facing. We do not have Marje3eyah Deniya and some people think that is a good thing, which I disagree.

 

In conclusion,people already make up their mind and listening Imams' opinions or not هو تحصيل حاصل بنسبة لهم.

 

 

PS:I'm not attacking you but just explaining why people has sympathy for people like Ibn Ladin.

 

إذا عر٠السبب بطل العجب

 

Salam

[NGONGE]

Heh. There is no paranoia, saaxib. Your questions were leading questions, that’s all.

 

As for the distinction between resistance and violence (terror), no need to waffle on about Israel, America or China and how they work. What’s important is that you and I know there is a difference. Do you know if a difference exists, saaxib?

 

OG,

 

I fully understand your position and can even imagine how your thought process went. If this is the conclusion you reached and you’re happy with, so be it. You already know I strongly disagree with it, but I appreciate that such a position does exist and can understand the justifications for it. My moral principles, reasoning and even instinct compel me to oppose such a view however. I believe my position to be the true one and I’m trying very hard to advance it. Nevertheless, in your case and those that hold a similar position to you, I already know I can’t make you see my point of view. I’m saddened by the thought but I also know I’ll have to reluctantly accept it. My relentless repetition, harrying and constant harassment is reserved for those that keep a foot in each camp and blissfully believe they’ve taken a moral stance on the issue.

 

I’m not enjoying this at all.

 

PS

I don’t hate one-lines. Some one-liners are great and worth a million words. The typical SOL online though is not one of those. It’s ok in that Troll thread (even I went and left them a line of my own there). But, those that leave pointless one-lines in topics such as this one are being immensely ignorant (IMHO). Fortunately, we have not had many of those yet.

[Pujah]

^^ How about this for one line

You NGONGE are dancing in circles. I have read many of your posts along with responses from Xiin and Viking and feel that you all are singing the same song in different tunes.

[STOIC]

Haaji Ngonge, You advocate social investment in the spread of awareness within the muslim community but I am afraid that this terorist will disdain this call as a platitude that is flat and dull.I agree with you Saaxib that the war launched by this terorist is frightening.These are people who are ready to die for a cause.Their actions eliminates the traditional opposition force that has always guranteed civil security.I doubt(i could be wrong here) if Muslims disaproval of their action's will deter them from their actions.Rememeber these people gain powerful gratification from their ascetical pride.You mentioned the Rushdie affairs.Yes Muslims were more vocal at his actions then.People even died in places like Pakistan because of his action.Do i think that many people will disaprove Osmaa's action like they did with Rushdie affair?-I don't think so!.Osama is like a bearer of message of "salvation" to many.They do agree with him wether in public or not.Hopefully with Allah's help a day will come when muslims will separate politics from the religion.

 

PS: Its okay you can claim to be Sijui since your name with the letter I added after letter N means "hit me" in Swahili. Ngonge=Nigonge