Blaming the Mosques for the Sins of Governments

[xiinfaniin]

This (this topic) is not yet a dead horse from whom we should all dislodge ourselves. Not to me at least.

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Terrorism (as a consequence of political ostracism, not religious fanaticism) is fomented "not in the mosque or the madrassas but in solitary confinement cells, torture chambers, and the environment of fear wielded by dictatorial regimes as instruments of legitimate governments."

 

It's here where any genuine inquiry into the root causes of terrorism should begin, and most likely, conclude. Read on.

[Viking]

"While unofficial terrorism – as opposed to official, state-sponsored terror – can inflict untold hurt, it is often a frantic retort to political, cultural, religious, ideological and even physical oppression and violence."

 

xiinfaniin,

This is what it's all about...states want to have monopoly on violence. They refuse to acknowledge their role in all that is going on.

[NGONGE]

Xiin,

 

What new light does this article shed, saaxib? The writer there seems to be pressing all the right buttons for those wanting to ignore reality, but intellectual and moral stances he does not present.

 

I’m quite disappointed with myself here. Having spent a whole month arguing on this topic, I at least assumed that some of you would be able to see the simplicity of such arguments and will halt the pointless quoting of westernised points of view. If your anger about Iraq, Palestine, Chechnya and Kashmir is one borne out of Islamic brotherhood and solidarity, your moral argument and positions should follow the same line. There really is no room for mixing and matching your views.

 

You can reject all these wars from an Islamic viewpoint and argue, fight for and discuss the plight of Muslims everywhere. You can also play the excuse game, the cause and effect one. However, and I’m repeating myself here, you can’t mix the two.

 

The cause and effect position has no moral value whatsoever. It relies on and tries to explain everything on the basis of revenge and vengeance. It tries to excuse all transgressions and blame them on those (transgressions) that preceded them. How far back can one go though?

 

Iraq invaded Kuwait (it’s Iraq’s fault). Kuwait (and Saudi Arabia) asked the West to help them in the war with Iraq (it’s Q8’s fault). The West defeated Iraq and took the opportunity to plant some soldiers in the Gulf countries (it’s the West’s fault). Bin Laden started blowing up Saudi Arabia as a protest to the presence of American soldiers in Saudi Arabia (it’s Bin Laden’s fault). Cause and effect? Bin Laden started blowing up other countries in protest at those soldiers. Cause and effect? Bin Laden blew up New York (Let us blame it on Israel for a change)! Bush invaded Afghanistan as a result of that (or so he says). Cause and effect? Bush invades Iraq too and tries to link it to the terrorists (cause and effect?). The idea of liberating the Muslim world and introducing democracy gathers pace. Cause and effect?

 

Who started what and where? Shall we go further back? Is Palestine the cause of this conflict? Shall we see the “cause and effect†of that problem? Lets not. It’s a long story and we’ll only end up blaming it all on the Sherrif of Maca anyway.

 

Though I indulged you in this cause and consequence game of yours, I still feel that you’re missing the whole point here, saaxib. This is a dangerous game that legitimises every abhorrent wrong just because the enemy has also adopted the same tactics. But, the enemy did not even adopt such tactics! The enemy fought a war!

Yes, it was more powerful. Yes, it had better equipment. Yes, it cheated and lied. But, it still fought a war. The terrorists are not fighting a war. Theirs’ is an illegitimate campaign of disruption and terror (the writer in your article misses the point about martyrdom when he attempts to compare these terrorists to the Jews and Christians unhappy about wrongs done to Jews and Christians).

 

Let us leave all of this and go back to the title of your thread: “Blaming the mosques for the sins of governmentsâ€! The mosques are our Islamic media. They’re the places where we pick up the new Islamic vibes, viewpoints and positions on various issues. These mosques have spent the past thirty years lamenting the state of the Muslim world and angrily beseeching Allah for help to defeat the non-believing transgressors. The Ulama and Imams might have not envisaged a retaliation such as the one carried out by Bin Laden and his ilk, however, if you spend most of your time feeding the anger and fuelling the already over excitable Muslims, don’t be surprised when you end up producing vile murderers like Bin Laden and his followers.

 

There are plenty out there that adopt “pride†as their only rule in life. Everything else has to fit in round that. Religious principles, moral values and decency are all good concepts as long as they don’t tarnish one’s pride, however, once they do they’re expediently discarded. Sadly, our mosques are full of such individuals. Many argue from a position of anger and hurt pride. The Ulama and Imams either don’t realise it or are as angry and shortsighted as their followers. Those that do notice it and preach against it are ignored because there is always another Imam/scholar ready to preach the message of hate and twist the knife deeper into our already wounded pride. Does his impotent rage make a difference? Is it a case of spreading awareness? Could we really be more aware than what we are?

 

Ah! Why do I bother? Nothing I say shall penetrate your fortified walls of cause and effect...

[DraGon]

Qoute:

Ah! Why do I bother? Nothing I say shall penetrate your fortified walls of cause and effect

 

I think its your fortified wall of self righteousness and arrogance that just don't get it.

ITS POLITICS THAT IS ****** NGONGE,something you dont understand or choose not to understand.

[NGONGE]

Edit:

 

 

I surrender I surrender

 

 

Salaaam. Salaaam. Salaaaam.

[Emperor]

the war in Iraq, which has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians, is arguably by far the greatest act of terrorism experienced in many years.

 

Mass murderers pointing finger at others

[xiinfaniin]

Oh prudent Ngonge, you don’t want see it or do you? Do you understand how complex these issues are? Or you just want reduce it few imams preaching hate and intolerance!

Do you really mean what you say or some of your writings are cracked with emotions?

 

I have long accepted my inability to convince you the significance of root causes in this war! I saw you arrested your intelligence and mobilized your efforts to chase your tale, saaxiib. You seem to have forgotten that it is the responsibility of ulluma to educate Muslim masses about the issues of aggression and injustice. They preach about the Muslim pride and dignity. They point out about the unfairness of this world and how Muslim land is unjustly occupied and its people humiliated. They talk about the checkpoints, the mass arrests of Muslim youth, and the indiscriminate killings that have become daily occurrence Palestine. In the face of their utter weakness, they pray to Him for justice and help. We all amen to that. Who doesn’t?

 

It is not their fault that some aroused youth set him-self off and killed innocent lives. Or is it really? This business of recasting the teachings of Qur’an and laying the blame in the wrong doors is not going to fly. As respected as you are, you seem to have missed the point in a major way. No body has so far condoned or rejoiced innocent killings. But you raised the bar for some lives and lowered for others. Your litmus test is unfairly applied, saaxiib.

 

See the big picture; terrorism is always terrorism irrespective of who and how.

[Johnny B]

Ngonge , I hate to see you waving that white flag , becouse it MAY mislead the targetted group and make them beleive that you´ve really lost.

 

Lost are those who intentionally shut their eyes and failed to SEE those sinple, humble arguments you presented.

 

Somalis have very difficulties accepting having the weaker idea of any given issue, a shallow egos if u like, so instead of agreeing with you and cherishing your unquestionable arguments,

 

they take an extreme position JUST to flag for indirect capitulation.

Understanding that is vital KEY issue in Somali debates.

 

NGONE bro, you delivered !!

 

Always KEEP in mind , Somalis twist history JUST to make to the Arabs , Specially to the " kuresh" Arab family. Them not speaking even semi-arabic language doesen´t raise their eyebrows.

Memorizing the "Kuran" in early ages and beeing fake descendants of "Kuresh" Arab family is part and parcel of every Somali´s mentality .

 

WEST is not a religion , Islam is

If Islam is a way of life then WEST is not .

explaining that plain diffrence costed you alot ,

but you delivered it sxb and in time !!

WELL done NGONGE !!

[Jumatatu]

^^^Hold your horses sxb..! I think you are on a different wagon. I doubt whether the man waving the white flag(am sure he wanted to wave a checkered flag) in early stages was actually portraying your sentiments.

[Kashafa]

Two things, Johnny boy: a) you might wanna minimize the cheerleading. b) you might wanna string together a a few coherent sentences relating to the topic at hand.

 

Example of gibberish:

 

Always KEEP in mind , Somalis twist history JUST to make to the Arabs , Specially to the " kuresh" Arab family. Them not speaking even semi-arabic language doesen´t raise their eyebrows.

Memorizing the "Kuran" in early ages and beeing fake descendants of "Kuresh" Arab family is part and parcel of every Somali´s mentality .

and this little gem:

 

WEST is not a religion , Islam is

If Islam is a way of life then WEST is not .

explaining that plain diffrence costed you alot ,

but you delivered it sxb and in time !!

WELL done NGONGE !!

[NGONGE]

Thanks Juma

 

It is not their fault that some aroused youth set him-self off and killed innocent lives. Or is it really? This business of recasting the teachings of Qur’an and laying the blame in the wrong doors is not going to fly. As respected as you are, you seem to have missed the point in a major way. No body has so far condoned or rejoiced innocent killings. But you raised the bar for some lives and lowered for others. Your litmus test is unfairly applied, saaxiib.

 

See the big picture; terrorism is always terrorism irrespective of who and how.

Xiin,

 

I raised the bar for some morals and lowered it for others (not lives). You and me are Muslims; we should be concerned with Muslim problems, weaknesses and indifference. You say that you don’t condone or rejoice for such bombings (well done you) yet you go on to compare types of “terrorismâ€! Why?

I’m saying to you what business is American terrorism/ war and how it is conducted to you? Why are you so bothered about the morality of their actions? Would you agree with their invasion of Iraq if it were done in a nice and acceptable way?

 

You see, I doubt that you would. The way the Bush administration reaches its goals and moral positions, the way they decide to deal with the world and they way they conduct war should not be compared to the way Muslims would do any of these things. We believe our faith is superior, don’t we?

 

To make matters worse, we also believe that terrorist acts that are carried out by so-called Muslims are wrong. But, we still apply Bush’s logic when trying to rationalise such acts; cause and effect it is.

 

I’m picking on this unconcerned attitude of yours that stubbornly focuses on the false notion of “cause and effect†– false because it does not matter to us as Muslims who denounce acts of terror. Moreover, I’m questioning your use of the word “few†when talking about raging Mullahs and angry youth. What does few mean? We are talking of the entire Muslim Ummah here, saaxib. If it were a handful, I’ll agree that we can ignore them, but few?

 

On the issue of the mosques and Imams, why could they not stop these angry youth from getting angrier? Are they not our guiders? Why not denounce the deviants amongst us? To be fair to most Imams and scholars, in the past few years, many of them have started to condemn impotent anger and preach patience and adherence to Islamic principles (in spite of all provocation). Yet, the reactionary mentality still remains. Yet, the ineffective rage is always present. Yet, denials are endless. I was watching an interview with the main leader of mosques in Birmingham UK. He denounced terrorism and the London bombing but said that he does not believe that Muslims were behind the bombing! Despite being shown photos, despite watching interviews with the families of the bombers and despite knowing their names he still maintained that he does not believe anyone related to Islam was behind these bombings (he was not saying this to distance Islam from such horrible acts, he was saying it because he believed there was some conspiracy theory afoot). I bet if one had argued with this guy and pushed a bit with more facts and examples, he’ll finally concede that there might be “a few†Muslims that carry out such acts. Alas, you’ll never see it in his words or demeanour that “a few†are a few too many.

 

Saaxib, the issue is not that complex. The issue is very simple but we Muslims always find ways to complicate it. The knee-jerk reactionaries are hijacking your and my faith (I would not dignify them with the title fanatics). They’re the ones starting riots in Pakistan, the ones killing film directors in Holland, the ones blowing up civilians in Egypt and Iraq. They’re Muslim and they’re (I hope you’ll agree) wrong. Now, instead of wasting your time arguing the dead-end issue of cause and effect, wouldn’t be better if you concentrated on the enemy within? We all already KNOW the enemy without; we spent 30 years talking about the enemy without. Enough already.

[xiinfaniin]

Waving that white flag was a tactical shift after all!

 

I would not want to imagine living in a world devoid of cause and effect. From any angle you look at it, no event (big or small) lives a vacuum, saaxiib.

 

But I realize your argument is not about the cause and effect per se. You just don’t appreciate how it factors in to terrorism and you don’t value analysis and perspectives from that view. In the spirit of productive debate, Let me concede one point though; from personal level it does not really matter what motivates an armed gang who robbed me and took my belongings. I simply want him jailed. But I happen to believe the issue of terrorism is fundamentally different than this. To me it is a global trend that can’t be easily removed from its actual causes. What makes it different is its political orientation. But again you chose to dismiss that notion as a vapor of sympathy and refused to acknowledge its significance. I see you resolved to ignore the supply side of this equation and concentrate to passionately write about its symptoms. There you stand and can do no other, or so it seems. And so I quit to indulge in to this vain exercise, saaxiib.

 

But let me extract some wisdom from you, saaxiib, and meekly ask what solution (accepting the blame is a mere start) do you see for this to be halted? What are the remedies?

[STOIC]

Ngonge,I did admired your boundless illimitless energy on this topic.Haaji, you must have seen a cow contentedly munching its cud.Nothing seem capable of disturbing this animal-and the animal seem to want nothing more of life than to lead a simple vegetable life.Some people are like that-calm, patient and placid.There are other people who don't want this passive life, they want to try hard cud like meat.Haaji Ngonge, as you know Islam is a complex family with one billion worshipers.Each worshiper has a different taste .Islam is not only diverse in extent, it is also diverse in beleif and customs (I am not going to touch on the interpretation escapegoat that you don't like).When you state that imams and mosques should stop these angrier crowd?-which imams and mosques are you refering to(the salafi brothers?, the moderates?).I suspect you go to the mosque everyday, doesn't your Imam talk and disaprove these terorist acts?-atleast my Imam does it whenever the topic comes up!.

 

The realist amongst us know that terorist attacks that exist today are carried out by muslim brothers and sisters.Do some people sympathise with their action? yes some do.When you ask them why they suport such hideous acts they will give you the "cause and effect" argument you mentioned.Yes American occupation of Iraq and Israeli occuaption of Palestinian land are wicked just us these terorist actions are.But what is the solution to these terorist problems?-i did ask you(not directly) this question a while back, you never answered!.Should Islam promote international network for liberal and moderate muslim?,should Islam foster reform in schools(madrasasa) or should all the Imams be forced to submit their Khutba outlines for verification that it doesn't contain anger?.How will one billion people of different nationalities be reached?.I did understand your cogent argument saaxib but it looks like the more i read your arguments the less i found solutions in it.

[NGONGE]

Xiin & Stoic,

 

That’s quite a question you’ve thrown my way. Nonetheless, I suppose I dug my own grave there and it’s time I lay in it. You both of course realise (I hope) that pointing out a problem does not also require being ready with a solution.

 

What solutions do I have, you ask! I’m assuming that (for the sake of argument) you finally agree this problem exists and that such a malice runs deep in Muslim circles. The simple solution is to excise this mind-set. Call me arrogant, call me conceited or even sanctimonies, but people in general are easily led. Had there been a campaign or culture of strongly denouncing terrorist acts, the chances of people like Bin Laden being able to recruit anyone would have been very small. The reason why he can find volunteers to help him out is the lack of condemnation and the nonchalant way his whole movement is being viewed by most Muslims.

 

You see, people are paying the usual lip service and saying that what he and his fellow terrorists are doing is wrong but there is no evidence of real anger or strong condemnation! Compare and contrast this to Salaman Rushdie’s case! There, the anger was very visible, the rage was hardly containable and people were falling over themselves trying to denounce the heretic! Even the recent Dr Badawi fatwa, have you seen the initial reaction to that? Have you seen the anger and accusing fingers (even though the fatwa is probably legitimate and acceptable)? With Bin Laden, most scholars denounce him and call his group Khawaraj, yet with every atrocity he commits, there is hardly a cry, condemnation or disapproval from the usually protective Muslims! The scholars say that he’s distorting our faith but people nod and carry on talking about cause and effect.

 

 

Stoic, the divisions that exist among Muslims do not mean that all those groups condone terrorism, they don’t. As far as I’m aware, most of these groups (Salafi, Ahalu El Sunna, etc) are against terrorism. They have their own differences but they don’t all disagree on this issue. For now, the only solution is to spread awareness and ensure that the average layman understands the seriousness of this situation. Imams should be aware of the feelings of their mosque regulars (samples of which can be found in this here site). They need to moderate their words so as they don’t unwittingly encourage the ever-angry youth into the bosom of Bin Laden. The Imams need not submit their khutba’s to anyone, one assumes they are actually qualified for the job they do. As for reaching the ONE-BILLION Muslims, well, unlike our predecessors in the early days of Islam, we do have the benefit of having the magical power of modern media at our disposal. Reaching people is the least of our problems.

 

Only when people start to view the actions of Bin Laden and his ilk in the same light they would view a Salman Rushdie, Irshad Manji and the various other deviants would we start to have a proper solution to this problem and reform Islam. Less anger and more thought should be the message.

 

 

PS

Stoic, Islam has always been a moderate faith. Only recently with ignorance and pandering to Western tastes and labels has the moderate part of Islam become something to recoil from.

[Viking]

NGONGE,

A few questions I hope you can answer...

 

1) What do you think of the regimes in Muslim countries?

 

2) Is there currently any single Muslim country you can point at as an example for others to follow?

 

3) What kind of government do you support, a theocratic govt or a secular govt like i.e. Tunisia?

 

4) Do you think violence perpetuated by Muslims can come to an end while their lands are still occupied by foreign forces? Do you think the violence can be stopped while the people are being oppressed by despotic leaders who get support from other nations?