The sickness of secularism

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Cara:

Isn't this circular reasoning?

 

Not by two wrongs make right law. Tu quoque is so expedient. You atheist/nonbelievers are locked in vicious circular reasoning as well. You posit non-existence of God and then try reason to His non-existence. How risible! But your flock take the cake, you know why? You commit circular reasoning twice. First time you're theist and when you become atheist. That's circular reasoning to the power of two. One time is bad enough but you're two time in the deficit. Therefore, theist win this game by score of 2-1. Atheists lose!!!

 

If you got the gumption lets hear your rational defense of atheism. My contention? Atheism is not rationally tenable. The floor is yours.

 

 

Personalizing to that extent is distasteful, Socod_badne.

I refuse to accept a good word from someone who has no morals.

 

 

Cambaro,

 

Sorry dear but I don't argue with women. You guessed it right, they got no morals. You wanna know why?

[Ms DD]

Socod Badne

 

You dont argue with women because they got no morals? Is this where you feel your moral sense is superior to that of a woman?

What kind of women have you met? They really did a good job on you. Life is too short to be bitter.

 

Careful dear, your insecurity is showing.

[Khayr]

You know, I think the problem with secularism, as far as the religious are concerned, is not so much that religions are given short-shrift as that religions are simply not given enough attention. Nothing quite makes a believer smugly fervent as having the perception that they are under-seige by the state. But people just don't care what you believe as long as you are not going to burn them at the stake, tear out their still-beating hearts and offer them to your god to appease him for another year, make them pay a special tax or wear special clothing, lay claim to their possessions, etc. And that bothers those who like to trumpet their religious convictions and foist them onto others.

 

Secularism undermines religion and secular liberalism in particular. It gives the grandure illusion that religious equillibrium is attainable. Aslong ofcourse, that people practice religion in their homes and churches. Religion is then personalized and does not become a Way of Life. You don't attain religiousity by only going to church on sunday and observing lent.

 

Religion is a living thing that needs its own territory and to claim its superiority over other things. That is part and parcel of the wisdom of God and his creation; to have multiple competing views but are also complimentary and hierarchic.

 

What Secularity does is say that Secularism is at the Apex and that Religion is at the bottom of the pyramid of society. Religion is seen as unpragmatic because it does not work at creating a Utopia on earth. It does not solve world hunger or increase the employment rate or help people get jobs etc. It works on a set of different principles which are rooted in the Divine and the Revelation. Whhere as the former-Secularism, works on the premise that Revelation can't guide man. But then the question would be-towards what purpose-Attaining Heaven on Earth or preparing us for Heaven, where we belong ?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Cambarro:

Socod Badne

 

You dont argue with women because they got no morals? Is this where you feel your moral sense is superior to that of a woman?

What kind of women have you met?

It's not about the kind of women I met, that's got nothing to do with it. Women got no morals because they don't fear castration. Only those who fear castration can have moral sense. This is veritable truth that you can not refute. Sorry to tell you but we men have moral scruples and you women lack them by default.

[Johnny B]

Very weird points Cambarro , but before we sift through the concepts you blend , let us agree on

the Author's oppening notion, namely that Religion is or used to be where the premier threat to tolerance and coexistence comes from. And i'll stay forthright enough to argue that it still is the ONLY threat to tolerance and coexistence.

 

To strengthen that notion ,i'd say, religious people don't only Jostle to claim having monopoly on the one and only right path to their version of heaven by beliving in the one and only true God (allah), but they're busy pouring all other human beeings, religious and non-religious alike in their version of hell.

 

Sister Cara has nicely wrapped it for you there , Every religion ends up in the hell version of all other religions.

 

That only few if any religions show respect and willigness to co-exist peacefully with other belif systems is a fact you have to deal with, every friday you pray for the destruction of the

non-Moslims wishing them all the bad things one can think of,Judaism destroys You after friday

prayers preparing itself for the Sabath ,Christianity repeats same scenario preparing itself for the sunday mass, The Hindu laughs at you all, on his way to take a devine dip in that holy river, etc etc ,that, dear Cambarro is a Fact .

 

In reality , religious people do exhaust their Gods with prayers, prayers that are not answered for a reason or another , i'll let you explain to us weather your God can't answer your prayers

becouse (s)he is not really there or weather something is wrong with your prayers.

 

and please support your claims rather than simply insisting that those who don’t agree with you are bigots.

 

 

Secularism is a movement that serves to differentiate the modern times from the Middle Ages,To claim that Secularism is a belif i.e a religion is patently missleading, religion (always) worships a Deity, it has rituals , religion turns to supernatural powers for help , Secularism lacks all those. it was funny though to see for once the people of faith acting as faithless.

 

 

An Atheist is a person who doesen't beleive in the existance of a God or Gods as defined by the people of faith, nothing more nothing less. but maybe you were under the impression of everybody beliving in a God-like beeing .

 

 

Originally posted by Khayr:

Religion is a living thing that needs its own territory and to claim its superiority over other things. That is part and parcel of the wisdom of God and his creation; to have multiple competing views but are also complimentary and hierarchic.

Atheer Khayr, just multiply yourself , put on a Jew Hat or a Christian rope or why not wear a an Indian sari and tell us can you guys be complementry in Allah's hierarchic.?

 

With a belif in such a stance you're more or less demanding to be superior to all others and you've your God to thank that for.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by J B:

An Atheist is a person who doesen't beleive in the existance of a God or Gods as defined

by the people of faith,

But you can't falsify this assertion, therefore Atheism is irrational.

[Che -Guevara]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

But you can't falsify this assertion, therefore Atheism is irrational. [/QB]

This is coming from the champ of perversive seclarism..hhhm

[Caano Geel]

very interesting points. I'm sorry i dont have much time to add my piece proper, but pls carry on. I'll rant as soon as i can

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

But you can't falsify this assertion, therefore Atheism is irrational.

You're right SB, i can't falsify it.

[Cara.]

Socod_Badne,

 

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

If you got the gumption lets hear your rational defense of atheism. My contention? Atheism is not rationally tenable. The floor is yours.

Oh but I wouldn't presume to argue with someone who has a mortal fear of castration.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Cara:

Oh but I wouldn't presume to argue with someone who has a mortal fear of castration.

Castration is very real, palpable threat. It's not abstract notation like atheism, that doesn't exist outside of language. Can you you provide logical defense of Atheism?

 

We wait with bated breath.

[Cara.]

Originally posted by Khayr:

What Secularity does is say that Secularism is at the Apex and that Religion is at the bottom of the pyramid of society. Religion is seen as unpragmatic because it does not work at creating a Utopia on earth. It does not solve world hunger or increase the employment rate or help people get jobs etc. It works on a set of different principles which are rooted in the Divine and the Revelation. Whhere as the former-Secularism, works on the premise that Revelation can't guide man. But then the question would be-towards what purpose-Attaining Heaven on Earth or preparing us for Heaven, where we belong ?

Khayr, it's not Religion vs. Secularism, it's Theocracy vs. Secularism. Religions exist and flourish in secular democracies. There are several churches, a mosque, a Sikh temple and a synagogue within a two-mile radius of me right now. I'm unlikely to go to any of them, but most of my neighbors are affiliated with one or the other.

 

In fact, Secularism is the best way of protecting the integrity of Religion. By removing worldy incentives to go to the church/mosque, true spiritual searching free of coercion and materialistic calculation is possible. And isn't that what monotheistic religions claim we're here to do?

 

Let's say that we lived under some kind of theocracy in which religious beliefs were enforced and those who deviated were punished. Would this not create conditions contrary to the intentions of a god who wants to test individual choice? In Islamic theology, the idea is that humans (unlike angels and demons) have freewill AND conditions under which their freewill can be exercised. To create a system in which people are curtailed by a fear of the state makes the test conditions invalid, wouldn't you think?

[Ms DD]

Originally posted by J B:

Very weird points Cambarro ,

Thank you

 

Originally posted by J B:

And i'll stay forthright enough to argue that it still is the ONLY threat to tolerance and coexistence.

 

To strengthen that notion ,i'd say, religious people don't only Jostle to claim having monopoly on the one and only

right path to their version of

heaven

by beliving in the one and only true

God (allah)

, but they're busy pouring all other human beeings, religious and non-religious alike in their version of

hell

.

We are led to believe that secularism promote the concept of "live and let live" while i believe that it has an authoritarian kick that has little tolerance because an ideologue has little need for tolerance when she knows she's right and everyone else is wrong. You dont think this trait is exclusive to religious folks, do you?

 

One could accuse the non-religious to be arrogant, belligerent, didactic, and sanctomonious. Therefore in my opinion the non-religious is a lot alike the religious. They bot like taking the moral high groung (it is often that you hear, killing is wrong in any circumstance etc)

 

Originally posted by J B:

Sister Cara has nicely wrapped it for you there , Every religion ends up in the hell version of all other religions.

I am not disagreeing with you and Cara there.

 

Originally posted by J B:

That only few if any religions show respect and willigness to co-exist peacefully with other belif systems is a fact you have to deal with, every friday you pray for the destruction of the

non-Moslims wishing them all the bad things one can think of,Judaism destroys You after friday

prayers preparing itself for the Sabath ,Christianity repeats same scenario preparing itself for the sunday mass, The Hindu laughs at you all, on his way to take a devine dip in that holy river, etc etc ,that, dear Cambarro is a Fact .

And how are atheist diffferent? Lemme tell you what i often hear from them:-

 

"Atheism is a strong position to take and many people don't react kindly to strong opinions, mainly because they've never evaluated their own beliefs like so many atheists and agnostics have."

 

Here is another gem:

"With religion, ethics are decisions made for you and the reasoning on how they got there is either non-existant or revealed through some kind of hocus-pocus communion/prophesy/divination."

 

Another beauty:

"While the religious approach to knowledge is direct communion with a diety, complete subjectivity, giving in blindly to authority. Religion is at best a form of mass delusion, and at worst mass psychosis"

 

Yup..real tolerance there. Now where do i sign up? Fact is, they are no different to any religious folk.

 

Originally posted by J B:

That, dear Cambarro is a Fact .

A fact JB? What kind of masjids/churches/snygouges have you been to? If you have been to any? Nothing like you posted above goes on there. Of course you will find your odd over-zealous fanatics but they are minority.

 

Originally posted by J B:

In reality , religious people do exhaust their Gods with prayers, prayers that are not answered for a reason or another , i'll let you explain to us weather your God can't answer your prayers

becouse (s)he is not really there or weather something is wrong with your prayers.

 

and please support your claims rather than simply insisting that those who don’t agree with you are bigots. .

After religious lesson now JB? Perhaps we should start another thread in the Islam section. There is nothing God CANT do. This is common misconception atheist have. They are like petulant child who couldnt get their own way and as a result, they end up apostating. In their case, religion would take away from their self-worship.

 

Originally posted by J B:

Secularism is a movement that serves to differentiate the modern times from the Middle Ages,.

What is new that secularism brought into the modern world? What didnt we have before that we got now? I am not one who sees 'us religious people' as good and all our evils as good, and they as bad and all their vitues as evil, but I can see when a destructive way of life being promoted globally creates destruction and no amount of flowery language can hide it.

 

Originally posted by J B:

To claim that Secularism is a belif i.e a religion is patently missleading, religion (always) worships a Deity, it has rituals , religion turns to supernatural powers for help , Secularism lacks all those. it was funny though to see for once the people of faith acting as faithless.

.

In order to have a belief, it neednt be coupled with rituals. Atheist secularists do worship their desire and nafs. They believe (yes believe) that they only hold logical reason and rationality (whilst religious folks believe that they solely have the truth..see we aint so different after all). That is their hogaamiye. Make no mistake. This secular person will even start to tell others that their religion and sacred Way is wrong because this materialistic man has completely been blinded by his own ego.

 

 

Originally posted by J B:

With a belif in such a stance you're more or less demanding to be superior to all others and you've your God to thank that for.

Once again, this superiority complex is not exclusive to religious people only.

 

 

The secularists' notion of tolerance is nihilistic as they will only tolerate their own ways, all other ways they are intolerant of.

 

It would be an ideal if we were all free of prejudice and agreed that no worldview has a monopoly on truth and reason, but we know better

[Ms DD]

Actually when the author of the article (post1) was asked the purpose of that artcle, here is what she said:

 

"The point of the article is not to condemn secularism. The point is to historicise secularism and highlight its complexity and diversity. All I am saying is that secularism can be closed, intolerant and exclusionist, just as it can be open, humane and tolerant. The same applies to religion. It can be terrifyingly destructive just as it can be inclusive and tolerant. What annoys is the tendency to simplify socio-political phenomena, and to read everything through the ;ens of a set of ready made arguments, that equate all secularism with democracy, openness, pluralism and tolerance. I don't feel we are sufficiently aware of the dangers associated with certain forms of secularism.

 

I know that in Europe the notion of tolerance and religious freedom emerged within the conext of secularisation in the modern era. I am certainly not opposing secularism per se -if any such thing exists. The title, which I had chosen for the article was "secularism's arrogant face" and conveys this point better. What I am opposed to is the arrogant and dogmatic expressions of secularism, which I fear are on the rise in northern Europe, and manifest themseves most worryingly against religious minorities. I am against the tyranny of secularism, just as I am firmly opposed to the tyranny of religion, whatever name it may take."

 

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/soumaya_ghannoushi_/2006/10/secularisms_arrogant_face.html#comment-276646

 

 

I agree with her, and i am sure you guys are too. Whether be secularism or religion, it is open to abuse.

[Socod_badne]

Cambaro,

 

Why are Atheists and secularists Satan personified? And who do you think has the upper hand in the cosmic battle between Good and Evil?