Kool_Kat Posted June 21, 2007 AALIYAH, I agree with you 110%... Originally posted by Rahima: I do not have children yet, and perhaps once I have them I might change my mind about working full time (I’ll always works or else I’d go crazy) laakiin I’ll always keep in mind that it is a decision that works for me, and the Xaliima or Jane next door is not me. I am glad you brought up this point...Cuz, I was just like you before I had my daughter...But once I had her, everthing (and I mean everthing) in my life changed...Being a career driven woman most of my adult life, the thought of being a stay-at-home mom never ever occur to me... In advance, I don't mean to insult any woman, by any means, this is just my oppinion...I choose to be a stay-at-home mom, simply cuz the benefits outweighed far more than any money I can bring home or anytime being away from my daughter for eight hours a day, five days a week... When my maternity leave ended (which was one year), the thought of a stranger being my daughter's primary caregiver was/is horrendous to me, even if the the day care centre is the best...Being a stay-home mom is a full time job...There is a huge difference in who plays the predominant care of the child (mom/dad/grandparents/close relatives/child care provider)...I just cannot see my child being raised by someone other than family, in what is her most formative years... Being a stay-at-home mom doesn't mean I stay home with my child all the time...We go to the library for story time, I take her with me to the gym where there is a child minding are - she gets to play with other children while I workout (which by the way is very very convenient), we go to the mall, we visit my sisters - where she plays with her cousins, we go to something called EARLY YEARS - for children from 6months - 6yrs... They have different age groups, where the children play games, draw, sing, etc...This is something the parent and the child do together with other parents and children...Which teaches them a lot (ie, story time = time to sit quietly and listen, etc.)...And the fun part is you're there with them...It also helps the parent... Staying home with my daughter gives me a lot of benefits, which I can not put a price on...I get to see everthing from the first smile, to the first giggle, to the first step, to the first word...PRICELESSSSSSSSSSSSS... Being a Stay-at-Home mom should be viewed as a blessing rather than a nightmare...Unfortunately, quality and quantity go hand in hand with being a mom...If you're at home all day with your child, and you're on the phone gossiping and what not...Just cuz you're at home doesnt make you a good mom...Also, if you think spending time with your child is your time together to/from day care, while feeding him/her, or putting him/her; you are wrong...If ever you feel you have to make up for time lost, it is just time lost - you can not bring it back...Every time you're away from your child for a prolonged time, in his/her early years, is time you missed... I am sure I am not gonna be a stay-at-home mom forever...But for now, my daughter is still too young and needs me 100%... Every mom makes her choice and knows what good for her child/family...It does not make her any less mother than the other...Motherhood is a learning process, and if we don't make mistakes we will never learn... A QUESTION THOUGH FOR THE MOMS, at what age is appropriate to send your child to day care? One year, two, three, etc... AGAIN, JUST MY OPINION... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rahima Posted June 21, 2007 We’re not one the same wavelength here ladies. I’m not disagreeing with the point that in an ideal world the best for a child is for a mother to stay-at-home and be an attentive mother. I don’t think I argued such a point. That however is one aspect of it. Another woman might find that for her lifestyle choices other options also work and that perhaps her career is important to her, she has worked too hard and too long for it to give it up. Perhaps it makes her a better individual, a more well-rounded individual, a happier woman and therefore a better mother. You just don’t know what each person’s situation is. Perhaps this same mother is able to find appropriate care for her child, one that fits her standards and lifestyle. Perhaps she has weighed out the options and come to the decision that working does not gravely disadvantage her child. All of these perhaps are for her to ponder and decide over. Girls, you are two individuals, one Aaliyah and the other Kool Kat, you make choices for your life, not others. A woman for example who spent 6 years at medical school and another 4 at graduate school to become a gynaecologist so that she can treat Muslim women is going to find it very hard to give up something she worked so hard for, 10 years of school and thousand of hours at work. We all work for different intentions, for each of us work gives us something different. If a woman is able to compromise in a way befitting her and her child, then kudos to her. None of us are in a position to judge her. I for one do not believe that a child is disadvantaged simply by going to dar-care. What I do however believe is that there are other factors which contribute to this, mainly the attentiveness (or lack of) of a mother when she is with her child. Also, let’s not make it sound like we’ll only have two children, right after each other and we’ll be out of work for 5 years or so. No, in reality, we as Somalis tend to have slightly larger families than the 1.6 or 2.5 depending on which western nation you reside. Not to mention for most of your child rearing age mid 20s to late 30s, you’ll probably have a child under school age. That is a long time to be out of work, trying to get back into the work force after that is extremely difficult. But, please take few minutes and reflect on how life would be so much better if you could stay home and spend quality time with your child. I understand where Kool Kat is coming from (except for that she claims to agree with you), laakiin that is so patronizing Aaliyah. Do you not think that any sane mother would not think this through to the point that it hurts? Do you not think that she would probably loose sleep over deciding that which is best for her and her child? Do you think that a mother who decides to work does so on a whim without weighing out the pros and cons first, without deliberating extensively about the choices? You claim to not judge abaayo, but clearly you do, just by that plea. Ogow, any mother cares and loves for her child more than you would ever. Ogow, that she makes the decision that she feels is best for her child. Keep that in mind before you judge her choice. What i do or don't do is for me to decide, in all honesty i don't need for others to make a plea to me on behalf of my future child. I will make a decision which i believe is best for me and my child. That is my right. Respect mine (whatever it ends up to be) as i respect yours to stay home. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-Lily- Posted June 21, 2007 I think we’ve all agreed by now that these decisions differ from woman to woman. If every woman stayed at home who would provide all those services women need so badly? And tmwr some women will complain that they cant go doctors or dentists or see bankers in private because they are ‘all men’. Someone, somewhere and some child will need to be sacrificed. I agree with Rahima 100%. However, what fulfils you and makes you a whole person (in your case a career) differs from woman to woman, for some the thrill and fulfilment they get from their careers has been moved into their children, who now compensate, and they no longer have the need to work. Ideally it would be nice if the mother could spend some quality time with the child in its first year, and most maternity leaves are 1 yr. For many more staying at home is a temporary solution. Be warned though, from what I see of my nephews, those little brats are very seductive. I don’t think we should worry so much, many careers are now flexible some mothers in my office work from home 2-3 days a week, a lot is dependent on technology. I’m sure we’ll all make the right decisions when the time comes, I for one intend to have the best of both worlds so relax girls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Malika Posted June 21, 2007 ^^I agree with you and Rahima [should I do the percentages too..lol] Oh, I see raw emotional debate going on here, compelling indeed.. Let’s not forget that through the ages and across many different cultures, nonparental assistance with child care has been an enduring norm. All over the world, children typically live with and are cared for primarily by their parents but also receive care from extended family members, neighbours, friends and paid care providers. We do find ourselves in industrialized countries where there is an increase reliance on paid child care, due to the economical realities; one can’t afford to retire entirely from work unless one is wealthy. [A voice of Ayeeyo kooris]; my opinion is both biological parents and no parents can have both negative and positive effects on the child’s health, cognitive capacity, adjustment and social relationships. As a full time working mother, I too had time off when my daughter was born, and didn’t go back to work until she was 2, even so as a part timer. Honestly work doesn’t only mean bread on the table for me; it fulfils a certain void in me too. Which gives a balance to my life; I enjoy working and enjoy being a mother. Knowing my primary responsibility is my child. At the end of the day its all about personal choices and circumstances.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NGONGE Posted June 21, 2007 Stay at home or don't stay at home. If your child is destined to be a mass murderer or thief none of this will matter one jot. But, still, these little problems are something to fill our minds and while the time away I suppose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kool_Kat Posted June 21, 2007 Originally posted by Rahima: A woman for example who spent 6 years at medical school and another 4 at graduate school to become a gynaecologist so that she can treat Muslim women is going to find it very hard to give up something she worked so hard for, 10 years of school and thousand of hours at work. In such case, I am sure the mom could afford to hire a nanny...That way the infant could be cared for in a familiar and comfortable environment...It is also convenient for the mom, she doesn't have to dress and pack everything every morning...The infant doesn't get sick often, so that the mother wouldn’t have to find someone else to care for the child while he/she is sick at home...Just to highlight some of the benefits of hiring a nanny...I am sure she can afford it - after all she is a gynaecologist/family practitioner/dentist/banker and so forth...Besides, the cost of hiring a nanny is cheaper than the cost of day care... RAHIMA, walaalo you sound as if these posts are meant to attack you, or you disagree with you...I am pretty sure everyone here is just posting their opinions, not based on your believes... MUNIRA002, you said it well sis...Afkaaga caano lagu qabay... I am sure it doesn't hurt much if I put my "career" on hold for the first few years of my child's life... Here are some pros and cons I found every interesting: UPSIDE of Daycare: ***Always more than one person available to watch, care for, supervise, and feed your child ***Interaction with other children ***Develop social skills at an early age ***Kid's days are pretty much scheduled, routine, and consistent ***Daycare centers don't call in sick ***Kids receive a lot of mental stimulation ***Your house stays neater (although my son can make a mess in minutes) ***The kids enjoy the change of scenery and toys ***English-as-second-language kids have more exposure to English DOWNSIDE of Daycare: ***Laying out their clothes ***Packing nutritious lunches vs. fast food snacks ***Morning rush to get out of the house on time ***Allow extra time to make the stop and drop-off ***Your child screaming, "Mommy don't go!!" ***The guilt and bad feelings because you're leaving them behind ***Less one-on-one attention from caregivers ***Potential personality conflicts at the center between parents and staff ***Potential personality conflicts between the children ***Ethics taught are the centers or the caregiver ***Values taught are the centers or the caregiver ***Possibly no ethics or values taught at all ***Less bonding between parent and child ***Child learns early on that you won't be there for them when they need you ***You don't get to see and experience all the "firsts" that your child goes through ***You can NEVER recapture those things you miss ***When your child has a boo-boo you're not there to make it better ***When your child is excited about what she/he has learned, you're not there at the moment they want to share it with you ***When they're not feeling well you leave them to someone else to care for them ***When they're sick no one will baby them like you will ***More exposure to health issues: ringworm, lice, and colds/flues ***You're not there to kiss away their tears ***You're not there to waylay their fears ***You're not there to set their wild ideas back on track ***No opportunity to have a spontaneous day ***No time to do "nothing at all" together ***To experience the joy of holding and watching your child sleep for hours (hopefully) ***Less time to go to do anything together ***No time to just "play" ***To be your kid's playmate ***To experience getting to be a kid all over again with your child (I would give anything for this) ***Seeing and experiencing life through the eyes of your child ***Not there to put a band aid on the invisible oweee ***Not get to see your child's imagination develop ***Not get to see their personal development as much as you could ***Don't get to see them beaming with pride at their BIG accomplishments ***Infants and toddlers spending 6-8-10 hours a day away from Mom or Dad ***The cost of daycare is an added expense: financial and emotional I am not saying that taking your child to day care makes you a bad mom, only the time you take them to day care makes a world's difference...Like I said before, I don't plan to be a stay-at-home mom forever...Rather, until my daughter is three or even four... AGAIN, NO OFFENSE TO ANY MOM or MOM TO BE, JUST MY OPINIONS... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pujah Posted June 21, 2007 ^^why is the downside three times longer than the upsdie? hmm I am sure that is just your perception. I am not sure whether or not I would send my kids to day care since I don't have any at the moment it's pretty hard for me to choose one way or another. I also don't like working in the first place even though I do enjoy what I do. I would probably prefer to shop and gossip all day but than again who said staying at home wasn't a full time job :confused: hmm I guess I will stay at home and have full time nanny when the time comes :cool: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ibtisam Posted June 21, 2007 ^^^^lool^ I would not trust a stranger with any kids, let alone mine :rolleyes: I think people should look after their kids best way they can (not dump them on a nanny) and put their "career" on hold for a short while, if your Career is too important, then do not have any kids. ( ducks) Either the kid comes first, even before yourself or you stick to your "career". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Valenteenah. Posted June 21, 2007 Guys you forget there is a middle ground between staying at home and daycare. It's called family. If you are lucky enough to have your mum, aunts, nan or siblings around, then you are set. No outrageous childcare costs, no evil daycare centre and you can work as much or as little as you want. I don't like 'either or' choices. Having said that, I agree with Rahima. I don't think there's anything wrong with sending your child to nursery. They develop their social skills and learn many things that you may not be able to teach them at home. When my nephew started nursery at 2 and a half, they taught him how to bake. Can you believe it? He used to bring muffins home (nice ones too). I don't even know how to bake and neither did his mum. LoL...No way he would have learned half the things he did at nursery if he was home. My point is attending nursery is a necessary process for children's growth. It introduces them to the concept of communal learning and prepares them for school. Of course you are not always going to be satisfied with the level of care some places provide, but there are things you can do about that too. You can easily move him//her to another nursery or you can join the Parent Association and ensure, through campaigning and complaints for example, that they deliver a good enough service for the children in their care. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaliyyah Posted June 21, 2007 Also, let’s not make it sound like we’ll only have two children, right after each other and we’ll be out of work for 5 years or so. No, in reality, we as Somalis tend to have slightly larger families than the 1.6 or 2.5 depending on which western nation you reside. Not to mention for most of your child rearing age mid 20s to late 30s, you’ll probably have a child under school age. That is a long time to be out of work, trying to get back into the work force after that is extremely difficult. I will have two or maybe even three children insha-allah. Since, I want to have the best of both worlds. I believe in having a career, and actually perusing post secondary education at this time. I want to have a career and yet make sure that I am there for my child for the first few years. I personally don’t believe in having 7 children, and taking them to daycare. Whether it is a good day care or otherwise. In my mind it is a daycare center, where strangers get to take care of my child, that idea alone terrifies me. What I do or don't do is for me to decide, in all honesty I don't need for others to make a plea to me on behalf of my future child. I will make a decision which i believe is best for me and my child. That is my right. Respect mine (whatever it ends up to be) as i respect yours to stay home. Sister Rahima, I think staying home is the better alternative. But, that is my personal opinion. I am sure u have looked at the situation from every aspect and decided at the end that hey working is what works for me. I am going to respect your choice, don’t think I am here to attack you. There are those who agree with you, and those who agree with me, I guess everyone is different, and look at the same issue from different positions. So, people just do what you have to do, it is your life and that child is yours. I am sure we are all going to love our children, and we are going to do what we think is the best for that child. That is all that matters I guess, doing for your child what u think is best for yourself and for them…I guess love comes in different forms, I am sorry when I said a mother who works doesn’t show her love, I guess I got carried away a bit. My sincere apology. hmm I guess I will stay at home and have full time nanny when the time comes P That had me laughing walahi. You are genius what is better than staying home and having a nanny while you gossip and shop eh Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rahima Posted June 23, 2007 So Kool Kat, I’m confused, is your objection with day care in itself or a mother not been there for her child’s first moments? I mean it seemed to me you were advocating for the latter and therefore a nanny isn’t the solution, in fact nothing is except that a mother stay home. As for day care, the list you gave us is as according to you - which is your right as an intelligent woman who is able to make her own choices. I too as a woman who can make her own choices could perhaps come to write a list just as long where the pros outweigh the cons. I know day care has negatives, just as it has positives. I also know finding a good centre is extremely difficult. But even with all that, I’d rather day care than a nanny where there is interaction. That is my take on it, another woman might judge that a nanny is best and that is her right. Also, the two of you managed somehow to turn this into a discussion about me. You Kool Kat started off with insinuating that I was a career woman all about climbing the corporate ladder (when there was no reason for you to hold this view aside from me advocating for a woman’s choice) and that soon enough just like you who used to be a career woman I too would see the light and jump the fence. Perhaps I work for different reasons than money or seeking a high-flying career, perhaps I work for something more. But you don’t know, didn’t ask and instead just assumed. Aaliyah then put the icing on the cake; she made a heartfelt plea for my poor soon-to-be neglected children . Tell me then that the two of you did not turn this from a general discussion into a let’s save Rahima campaign? Ladies to each their own, and oddly enough that is exactly what I’m advocating, to each mother her own without receiving scrutiny and criticism- she knows what is best for her and her family- you do not, so let them be P.S. Aaliyah you best be be careful with the only wanting three children choice. I mean really, we as Muslims should be aiming to have as many children as possible- it really is extremely westernised of you to want to limit like that. What is that you say? It's your choice? You know what is best for you? I should mind my own business? I'm only teasing , but i hope you see my point. No one likes to be scrutinised over choices they thought long and hard about. And even more importantly no one likes to be patronized. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kool_Kat Posted June 23, 2007 Originally posted by Rahima: So Kool Kat, I’m confused, is your objection with day care in itself or a mother not been there for her child’s first moments? I mean it seemed to me you were advocating for the latter and therefore a nanny isn’t the solution, in fact nothing is except that a mother stay home MY DEAREST RAHIMA (by the way I like the name), Both the day care and a mother not being there for her child's first years go hand and hand...If a mother is not there and is working, the child is in day care, right... I never turned this about you, and if you think my intentions were that - I really do A-P-O-L-O-G-I-S-E... N'way all I am saying is that I think that it is best if a mother is there for her child's first years, at least 'til the child is three or so...And it wouldn't hurt the mother's career, at least not much...And like I said b4, if the child is home with the mother, you'll be amazed at how much a mother can teach her child...There are so many free programs provided by the government, where the mother and the child can participate with others just like them... Originally posted by Rahima: Perhaps I work for different reasons than money or seeking a high-flying career, perhaps I work for something more. ^^^Enlighten me on the above statement... Besides, as you state, We as Muslims should be aiming to have as many children as possible... Please tell me how you plan to manage 5,6,7,8 or more children (God Willing) and your career????? Every woman knows what's best for her and her family...Good luck to all of us...Ilaahey lee caruur cafimaad qabo hana siiyo, everything else will fall into place... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rahima Posted June 23, 2007 Originally posted by Rahima: So Kool Kat, I’m confused, is your objection with day care in itself or a mother not been there for her child’s first moments? I mean it seemed to me you were advocating for the latter and therefore a nanny isn’t the solution, in fact nothing is except that a mother stay home MY DEAREST RAHIMA (by the way I like the name), Both the day care and a mother not being there for her child's first years go hand and hand...If a mother is not there and is working, the child is in day care, right... I was referring to your suggestion of a nanny for our hypothetical gynaecologist mother. She is still not home with her child and misses all the priceless moments, so then why advocate for a nanny? Nanny and day care in this case as with regards to the missing of moments is still the same, no? 3 or so years of staying home is your opinion; others will say you that’s too early. You can never please all, and as I’ve said (to the point that my fingers are becoming contracted), it is a mother’s discretion. Besides, as you state, We as Muslims should be aiming to have as many children as possible... Please tell me how you plan to manage 5,6,7,8 or more children (God Willing) and your career????? I think you missed my jab at Aaliyah-re-read it . That said however, why make a point of it even if i made that comment seriously? I mean i would then only be doing what you guys are doing no? You believe that all mothers who can stay home should stay home and i would be deeming it that all mothers who can have the 8 children should- career or any other reason is just not good enough. ^^^Enlighten me on the above statement... Do you not think that the reason that some work is for more than money or a place on the ladder :confused: ? I’m sure you can come up with many many other reasons . I work for one of the many other reasons- believe you me my field of work does not have a ladder and the pay is not going to get buy me a mansion. I do however plan to make a move to something better paying so that one day inshallah i may be able to do what i actually want to do and have enough assets to sustain me, not lavish, just sustain. Every woman knows what's best for her and her family...Good luck to all of us...Ilaahey lee caruur cafimaad qabo hana siiyo, everything else will fall into place... Bingo! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naden Posted June 23, 2007 ^^^ Why should muslims aim to have as many children as possible? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rahima Posted June 23, 2007 ^ I wasn't arguing it, i was trying to illustrate a point with it- the point that just like Aaliyah disaproves of mothers working whilst their children are young, others will dissaprove of her family planning. However we all make choices which are best for us, and just like Aaliyah would appreciate it if others respected her right to family plan she should respect others and their choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
