244 pilgrims killed during Hajj

[N.O.R.F]

^^^ameen

 

Stop critising Saudi government, they deserve respect and appreciation, they do their ultimate best to look after pilgrims & the two masjids. If you ever been their u would have known the great job they have done in the past and still doing.

True indeed, you can put all sorts of measures to make Hajj safer for everyone, but there is never any guarantees, whatever allah wills,,,,,,,

[LANDER]

I will not waste time arguing about the Saudi Government because in my opinion anyone who cannot see the shortcomings of that regime is fooling themselves, instead I will focus once more on this great "flaw" of ours(the muslim uumah). That is to accept adversity whitout desire to avert it in the future because it is "The will of Allah". I will leave you with a quote from Dr.Mahatir in his speech at the I.O.C

 

"....We must accept this fate that befalls us. We need not do anything. We can do nothing against the Will of Allah.

 

But is it true that it is the Will of Allah and that we can and should do nothing? Allah has said in Surah Ar-Ra'd verse 11 that He will not change the fate of a community until the community has tried to change its fate itself. "

[bilan]

salaam

we can say all we want about saudi gov, but one thing we can not deny is that saudi gov is the only muslim gov that spends millions on these two holy cities, there are 50+ muslim countries, and they do not even pay a penny, they do not help out the expenses of the haj,so the least thing that all muslims can do is to be grateful that someone is taking care of our holy cities.,second thing every single year the gov tries to minimize these things, before people use to die between safa and marwa, they made it two way street, since then no one had a problem, and this year they made a plan that they will let limited number of people inside each time, but people who are not registered managed to get to the haj, so this thing is trial and error, no one cares the safety of the haj more than saudi gov, and the evidence is how they are changing things each year

[Macalin]

First of All-Ilahey haa unaxaristo inta dhimate..may they be rewarded with janatul firdos..amin

 

secondly, blames and counter blames is nt teh way for islam, yes the saudis had a whole yr to prepare and oragnize the event, and honestlY speaking someone has to take a blame,be it the hajis(for being too eager i guess to be closer spirituallY) and or the saudis for being unable to control...the crowds...

 

And they say Allah has his waY..

[Vanquish_V12]

killing a muslim is major sin, but somalis have been doin it for 14 years now, there starving children and women in somalia but doesnt seem like we lose sleep over it.

 

people lets get our priorities straight, just cuz the western media chooses to glamourize the shortcomes of muslim countries we dont have to fall in their trap.

[N.O.R.F]

^^^we are not falling into any trap, we are debating whether or not this disaster could have been avoided. In order to discuss, criticisms have to be made to stamp a view point. There are hungry ppl in Somalia and so is there in Palestine, Ethiopia, Chechnia and many other countries. Is my priority with Somalis only???? When something happens in Palestine do think 'oh its only Palestine i shud care more about my own ppl'? Who is my own ppl? Somalis or the gr8ter Ummah?

 

The muslim Ummah is my priority!!!!!!!

 

I have noticed that many news agencies didnt mention a word about the hajj until the tragedy occured with only a few lines at the end of the report stating why so many ppl go to hajj. Thats just common sense, we should be able to distinguish the negativity coming out from the media by now.

 

Brother lander, i'm sure contingency measures were taken in all areas of the hajj in order to avoid catastrophies. However, these measures are not always adhered to for some reason or other. Maybe security were tired and not paying attention at that particular time in that particular place. Now do we blame the security for being tired and not paying attention or was is a will of allah that they became tired? What ever happens in this world, good or bad, it wudnt happen without the will of allah swt.

[Vanquish_V12]

yes, somalia is ur priority, first comes family then neighbours then the community u belong too, then the greater Ummah. Same goes for fulfilling Jihad.

 

i dont know about u, but where I am at it's constantly been on the news, citing all the instances and deaths that occured each time.

[JIDAAWY]

Originally posted by LANDER:

I understand it was their time to dye and nobody can refut that fact, and you can even say there is no better of dying then while performing the holy pilgrimage. But it is irritating when people say "their was nothing we could do about it". That is the type of mentality the muslim uumah has come to accept, and it is our greatest flaw. This isn't the first time this happened, nor will it be the last time it will happen if something is not done quickly.

Brother Lander, as a man who had a first hand experience in Hajj as a Hajii when 240 Hajis were killed and and as an employee working for the ministry of Hajj let me assure you that the Saudis are doing everything they can to make the Hajj as safe and easy as possible. Accidents happen every year mainly because :=

 

1) millions of unaccounted for Hajiis show up for Hajj, these Hajiis normally smuggle their way thru to Makkah causing unnecessary crowding.

 

2) Most Hajis are vulnerable elder people

 

3) Most Hajiis don’t know how to perform Hajj and throw big stones at the Jumurat which normally land on the Hajiis in the front lines and evidently cause panic and stampede.

 

4) The Jumurat area (where the hajiis were killed) is merely as big as one football court. Now imagine 3 million people throwing stones in an area that small.

 

5) Hajiis from south east Asia, who by the way make the majority of the dead each year, cannot hold up (when in a stampede) against Hajiis from west Africa who are physically bigger.

 

So accidents do happen, and that is Qadaa wa Qadar, but we cant deny the improvements and expansions the suadi government did to the Mashaacir (the holy areas) and the efforts they spend in making Hajj a safe experience for everyone because of the Hajiis inaptitude of following the regulations set for their saftry.

 

Waxa la yiri Galka dill Gartiisana sii

 

and Mau allah bless the dead.. (Al-shuhdaa and Al-shahiidat)

[Changed]

i dont know about y'll but i consider dying during hajj is a gift only few people get , god bless their souls and dont destroy it for the dead by making a big deal of their death am sure its not of y'll business.. saudi this saudi that :eek: ... can we have better things to discuss other than blame saudis for the death of the hajis :rolleyes: ..

:::::NEW FLaSH :::::it was meant to be ..this death was decided way before they were brought into this earth and there is no way this could have been avoided !!!!!..

 

if u still thing this could have been avoided and someone of those people would still be alive then God help u

[A7LA-SHU]

Lander what did u had in mind so it won't happen again?

 

i don't wanna sound rude but things like that will happen even if the saudis did their best to avoid it..

 

the only solution i can think of is to have limitation on how many ppl can the saudis take that year. and say no to the rest of the Muslims who wanna go to Hajj... and that would be lame...

[LANDER]

Jiidawy,

 

saxiib I'm glad the Saudi's are finally taking responsibility and changing the accomodations at Hajj which they predict should take 20yrs, but I feel it is long overdue. They've had more than ample ressources and financing to have made changes in the past. I notice some nomads here are replying with nothing more than the indoctrination they received at a young age, but please people stop the ignorance and use your brains instead of just repeating what you have been told. Yes, "People die at a time that is pre-ordained by Allah", we all know that and no need to repeat if that is all you have to say. Now if you have different ideas from what I have already said, I'm more than welcome to here it, but stating the obvious in this situation is somewhat moronic.

 

Madonna Girl,

I am no expert at co-ordinating large gatherings, nor am an architect that would plan out the expansion of the holy sites, however there are some obvious problems that we can all notice.

The number of pilgrims continues to increase yr to yr and despite the fact the Saudis say they will limit the number, they aren't doing much at all on the ground. I'm not sure first hand exactly what measures they have taken, but from what I've noticed they're is no security measure to distinguish a clandestine hajji and non-clandestine one. I would suggest cards and electronic check points for selected sites like the Pillar where the space is very limited. This could also apply for other sites like entrance to the masjid. These security measures would also help prevent potential terrorism, I received an e-mail that was being spread by some Zionists that had the qa'ba exploding in flames with pilgrims still circling it. Our holly sites are definitely vulnerable. They're is also a clear lack of man power to co-ordinate these pilgrims, hiring more people and making a rotating schedule for groups of Hajj pilgrims to visit sites at different times if this is not already in place wouldn't hurt.

[SomeAlien]

dying at hajj is a gift dying in a human stampede isnt. there IS a problem in the organization of it if accidents that harm human life keep occuring and im not saying its the saudis faults, judging by the replies im ready to say that the entire ummah needs to adjust their minds for a lil bit to whats in front of you/them.

[JIDAAWY]

Originally posted by LANDER:

Jiidawy,

 

saxiib I'm glad the Saudi's are finally taking responsibility and changing the accomodations at Hajj which they predict should take 20yrs, but I feel it is long overdue. They've had more than ample ressources and financing to have made changes in the past. I notice some nomads here are replying with nothing more than the indoctrination they received at a young age, but please people stop the ignorance and use your brains instead of just repeating what you have been told. Yes, "People die at a time that is pre-ordained by Allah", we all know that and no need to repeat if that is all you have to say. Now if you have different ideas from what I have already said, I'm more than welcome to here it, but stating the obvious in this situation is somewhat moronic.

 

Brother Lander let me start off by asking you this.. how many drivers have put their seat belts on, drove carefully, never exceeded the speed limit and ended up in a fatal accident because some dude who was speeding has crashed on em? Now do we blame the police who evidently put all kinds of signs concerning the speed limit and patrolled the highway to enforced them? Probably not.. same thing here.. the saudi’s made all kinds of improvements on the Mashaacir (the holy area’s) to prevent crowding and congestion but shit do happen no matter how careful you are..

 

I shall have you know that a multi million dollar project was approved last week by the Highest Commission for Hajj to build a ramp-like Jamaraat (pictured above) which will be capable of hosting up to 625,000 Hajiis/Hour. Construction will start in less than 2 month and should be completed before next Hajj season. Source

 

Now even with that project in place accident will happen because they are dealing with inept 60+ year old Hajiis who came from rustic Africa or South East Asia.

 

Saxib a vile criticism and bitter resentments against a muslim brother who is striving to help another Muslim fulfill his religious obligations will only cause hatred and destroy the coherence of the Ummah. The Jews are constantly conspiring to aggravate the disunity and dissension among the Muslim Ummah and what is a better way of doing that than putting the news of the dead Hajiis on a heavy rotation to aggrevate us and put the blame the Saudis for this calamity.

Having said that let me assure you that I am not a shill for the saudi’s who is trying to swindle peoples hearts into believing that Saudi “Government and Royal family” are sheer angles.. I as well as everybody here know how people are oppressed in Saudi Arabia.. but that’s a different issue and has nothing to do with the devoutness of the Saudis interms of Hajj and Hajiis…