Almost 100 organizations around the globe will protest

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by liibaan:

If the wife,or anyone,is only worried about what the community thinks of them and not what Allah SWT thinks of them,they should go to kufaar court,anyway.

Who decides what Allah thinks...you?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Warrior of Light:

There are somethings which can never change with Sharia Law,for example the Quranic decrees.

I agree, never said otherwise.

 

The so called Muslim nations though I prefer calling them Arab/middle eastern nations dont follow the shariah instead follow what they desire.

 

But THEY say they follow the Sharia. It's not upto us to decide who follows the Sharia and who doesn't.

 

You mentioned an example of stealing the shariah court will first listen to the case. See if the crime was hideous as claimed and above the set 'fixed monetary amount (the minimum wage) ' then the sentencing.

And who will oversee the sharia court judges? Should we just trut them and let them judge ppl according to Allah's laws? The problem is not with laws of Allah but ppl who sit on judges seats passing verdicts of guilty and innocence...they are fallable beings. They're not perfect. There must be a system that overlooks them so that we (the governed) will feel confident in these judges that they are actually doing what they suppose to do and nothing else.

 

 

The fault isnt with the LAW. Nay, but with the people who are implementing it. Does the law need to be changed No.

Can't you see the logical error in what you say above. If the law as it is now can't filter out the good in positions of power from the bad, then it obviously needs to change.

 

Theft is a behavioural disorder which needs to be addressed.

 

Nonesense! That is blanket statement. Some ppl steal to stay alive. What should be done with them?

 

As they had the knowledge and they feared Allah.

They're still human beings trying to implement Allah's laws...I'm not comfortable with that.

 

The problem we are facing is we lack people knowledgable in Islamic Jurispundence and the correct work ethics.

We need more than that...we need ppl to overlook those enforcing laws...and overlookers of the overlookers. Basically we need a system where everyone is being watched...that is the only way to eliminate abuse of power.

 

A case which has been conclusive in the shariah law can still be readdressed if the person beleives it wasnt fair. And also family intervention is allowed as the family know better the condition of the person questioned. Mercy can be shown. Those who are favourable can help the weak.

But this presupposes humans are altruistic which they aren't. We are selfish and self-serving.

[xiinfaniin]

How did I miss this one? This smells like a good debate .

 

Socod-badane, you of all people made somber assessments about the Sharia Laws and indicted fundamental tenets of this faith. You deemed it outdated because it is not, you reasoned, applicable to our age; unable to solve our problems. Unjust , you said, because it is inherently unfair as it harshly punishes the poor and looks the other way, so to say, when it comes to the rich. And finally it is dispensable , you concluded, and not essential to our live. Then you rose to the pulpit and lectured about how the Sharia is derived from confusing and differing opinions that we are not obliged to follow.

 

Now before I accuse you (it would seem so, any way, even if I don’t mean one) of what the Muslim scholars term compounded ignorance , would you furnish us what definition of Sharia law you had in mind?

 

I shall now wait and remain reserved till you come back with a supportable definition. For it may be the case, just may be, that you have forgotten Mark Twain’s priceless advice; get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please .

[Jacpher]

SB,

 

With all due respect my friend, your knowledge of Sharia is limited. I don’t know what you have been reading but your interpretation of Sharia is not accurate. The term Sharia means Islamic law, the law of Allah. The primary source of the Sharia is Quran and Hadith. A small portion of Sharia comes from Ijtima' of Ulumaa, the consensus of Imams and most knowledgeable scholars. Men leaving 1000 years ago didn’t write sharia. Believe me sxb the laws of Allah are applicable in every situation, every place and every time. As a matter fact, Quran tells us that Allah has neglected nothing in the book. It’s us; humans that neglect to learn and apply the laws of Allah.

 

The trouble with the Muslim countries isn’t the Sharia itself, as some want us to believe. The problem is the way it’s applied. Most of the Muslim countries accept Sharia in certain areas and refuse to follow it in other aspects of life. They allow courts to use Sharia laws when dealing with marriage but the government maintains a secular system in dealing with other important issues. This dual system isn’t gonna work. Suprisingly enough, they complaint Sharia can't be applied. The Qur’an itself criticizes those that take parts of Qur’an and leaving other parts. Same thing with Ahadith. One can’t simply pick and choose what Ahadith to take and what to drop. I think there’re over a million ahadith including the sahih, the weak and the fabricated. Only authentic hadiths can be taken as a source. Figuring it out which hadith is authentic and which is fabricated is a study of its own.

 

My friend, corruption is a human nature. It happens everywhere. You’ll see corruption in your local school, library, city hall and cinema if you will. Almost every country in the world sees some type of corruption. It does not happened because of Islam or Sharia. It happens because of lack of morals and values.

[Maxamed Caday]

You said:

 

SB, I failed to comprehend why a Muslims use theories or some diestic belief advanced by European as a yardstick in measuring human development, while shari` is perceived as inconsequential. If the Qur’an is merely words of Allah and plays no roll in human betterment, then why do we claim to be Muslims?

 

Your statement resonate deism belief--God as being discovered through nature and reason, rejecting revealed religion and its authority over humanity. Hence, can we claim to be be a Muslim whilst distancing the decree of his/her creator?

 

It is immensely crucial to understand the principle behind the notion of religion being separate from state! Also, it is equally imperative to know who were the pioneers or the advocate of secularism and most importantly the state of their society. In other words, what were the political, economical and social setting of their respective society and why religion was perceived as detrimental or stagnant to human progress?

 

 

I must say, that was well said.. those are excellent quetions that deserve to answered truthfully and thoughtfully.

 

------------------------------

 

The Messenger of Allaah sulallaahu alayhi wa salam said: "Whoever imitates a people is but one of them." [Recorded by Abu Dawud, and authenticated by al-Albani]

[NGONGE]

Don't Socod-Badane's ideas sound familiar?

 

I’m looking forward to watching how you would deal with him. At least he’s a Somali (and as far as we know, he wrote no bad books and is not a lesbian).

 

This promises to be a very interesting discussion. Will we finally see it taking off?

[Rahima]

To doubt the shariica can only mean one of two, lack of faith or ignorance. For the reason that the brother is Muslim, the case is obviously of the latter.

 

Having said that though we should not be gleefully smiling at the expressions of such ideas from a fellow Muslims. For those of us who are capable we should be educating the brother instead of sitting back with popcorn awaiting the release.

[Us_Marines]

WOL sorry sis.thanks for accepting my apology.

[xiinfaniin]

You’re right, good NGONGE , he does not fit in any of those categories. But who knows his could be one those minds that’s fed by the very people you mentioned .

 

I am eagerly waiting for the brother to come back and answer my question. Potentially good topic indeed.

[Baashi]

Aragaane.

[Baluug]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Come to another man's land, perfectly run by its non-Sharia law laws and we want to change them. Why?

This is what I meant when i said you stated that Canadian laws are perfect,whether you said "perfect" or "perfectly run" is irrelevant,what you implied,that there is nothing wrong with Canadian laws(or any other kufar country,for that matter) and that they don't need to be changed,is the point I am arguing with.I don't know if you live in Canada,I do and these "laws" are absolutely horrid.For first-degree murder,the maximum sentence is "life",which is actually 25 yrs,and there is also the "faint-hope" clause,in which a murderer can get parole after only 15 yrs.There is no death penalty in Canada.Tell me where the justice is in that kind of "sentence".

 

 

quote:Originally posted by liibaan:

If the wife,or anyone,is only worried about what the community thinks of them and not what Allah SWT thinks of them,they should go to kufaar court,anyway.

 

quote:

---

Who decides what Allah thinks...you?

Allah SWT decides every matter in this world,whether you think so or if you like it or not,please don't twist my words around,I simply stated that if you don't fear Allah,but you fear the people,then why bother even being a Muslim?

 

And who will oversee the sharia court judges? Should we just trut them and let them judge ppl according to Allah's laws? The problem is not with laws of Allah but ppl who sit on judges seats passing verdicts of guilty and innocence...they are fallable beings. They're not perfect. There must be a system that overlooks them so that we (the governed) will feel confident in these judges that they are actually doing what they suppose to do and nothing else.

At least now you're making some sense,when you say that the problem lies with the enforcers of sharia law.But there is,and never will be insha Allah,a system to watch over the judges who give the verdicts.That's why we have Allah in the first place.Almost everyone in the world has something they are hiding,remember no one's perfect,and Allah will reveal that which they concealed on the Day of Judgement.If they knowingly gave a wrong verdict because of the accused's status or received money for it,they will be very,very sorry on that Day.So,don't worry about them and what they do,they'll get their reward according to what they do.Worry about yourself and where you will be on the Last Day,there is no need to complain about the other people when you need to keep yourself in good standing ith Allah first.

[Bakar]

We look to the West because the West got it right and we haven't. I'm not saying we should shun our religion and culture for Western ones but that we take from them what has helped them go from being poor, uneducated, uncivilised, barbaric civilisation of the Medieval times to what they are today. There is nothing wrong from learning from other civilisations.

 

As Muslim, my definition of success is utterly different from those which you have ascribed to western nations. Every Muslim needs to be concerned of how they conduct themselves, that is, following commandment upon which Allah decreed us. The conditions which we [Muslims] find ourselves today are the end result of Muslims emulating life style oriented to the blasphemous rather than the sacred. One needs to take a hasty glance at history of how Muslims became corrupted, disintegrated, and antagonised by both externally and as well as internally. I don’t think we will ever understand this ongoing predicament which we find ourselves, so long as we remain ignorance and see everything through the lenses of western nations.

 

Muslims are not the only ones who are experiencing this hardship. There are other nations who are suffering as well. To understand the phenomenon of these crises one will make a gross error for dismissing the history of colonization and of plantation, and the economic incentives that associated with them. Hence, we can not simply assert the economic improvement is solely attributed to secularism or some other ideology.

 

 

It is true that many peopple use our religion for their personal gain (prestige, power, and egoisim). It is inevitable fact that human use system or religion for evil cause.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by xiinfaniin:

 

Now before I accuse you (it would seem so, any way, even if I don’t mean one) of what the Muslim scholars term

compounded ignorance , would you furnish us what definition of Sharia law you had in mind?

I don't have a definition of Sharia law and it doesn't matter what is the definition of Sharia law. What practical use is it to have a definition of Sharia law? You can have any law on paper, with stipulation sounding sweat music to the ears but at the end of the day it is how practical and helpful that law is once implemented on the ground that is true a indicator of its usefulness. Can we say today that Sharia law has helped muslim societies where implemented? No.

 

And about accusing me of being "compounded ignorance", frankly I don't give a hoot. I don't recognise the authority of supposed Imaams and their flaccid terms they coined to hide their incompetence and ineptness at solving problems of ppl they lead. I have not much faith at 'islamic scholars'. The title is a joke now days with every egomaniac dunce calling himself a one.

 

 

priceless advice;

get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please

what facts?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Ducaqabe:

 

With all due respect my friend, your knowledge of Sharia is limited.

I know. But I'm judging it based on the results from where it was implemented by more learned ppl then me.

 

The term Sharia means Islamic law, the law of Allah.

 

That is close to blasphemy. The Sharia law is NOT Allah's laws. Only parts of it but not ALL. Most of the Sharia law is man made, how can you say its Allah's laws?

 

Most of the Sharia law is based on Hadiths, do you disagree with that? Are Hadiths words of Allah?

 

Men leaving 1000 years ago didn’t write sharia.

 

Then who wrote it and when?

 

Believe me sxb the laws of Allah are applicable in every situation, every place and every time.

 

Only if rightly interpreted.

 

It’s us; humans that neglect to learn and apply the laws of Allah.

The Quran is not a legal document...only small portions of it deal with legal matters. Most of it is the define words of Allah covering many subjects. Therefore, from common sense perspective, not every legal dispute today can be settled by refering to the Quran alone. This is already a fact as we use Hadiths and other Islamic sources to settle legal matters.

 

The trouble with the Muslim countries isn’t the Sharia itself, as some want us to believe. The problem is the way it’s applied.

I disagree. If the sharia is applicable, then it should be applicable where implemented. No excuses. If it is humans that are incapable of implementing it properly, then it is useless law as no rightly can put it into practice. Either way it calls for changes to the fundamental tenents of the law.

 

 

Most of the Muslim countries accept Sharia in certain areas and refuse to follow it in other aspects of life. They allow courts to use Sharia laws when dealing with marriage but the government maintains a secular system in dealing with other important issues. This dual system isn’t gonna work.

And why is that?

 

The Qur’an itself criticizes those that take parts of Qur’an and leaving other parts.

What earthly being has the authority to say who has picked and chose parts of the Quran and who didn't?

 

 

Same thing with Ahadith. One can’t simply pick and choose what Ahadith to take and what to drop.

 

Of course you can. They are not the word of Allah, thus not biding.

 

Only authentic hadiths can be taken as a source. Figuring it out which hadith is authentic and which is fabricated is a study of its own.

 

Keep in mind that even authentic hadith is not necessarily true. Sahih hadith means it is only authentic.

 

 

You’ll see corruption in your local school, library, city hall and cinema if you will. Almost every country in the world sees some type of corruption. It does not happened because of Islam or Sharia. It happens because of lack of morals and values.

Comparing apples and oranges. You can't compare man made laws and Allah's laws. Man made laws can be rescinded, altered for the better or worse. They are product of humans, thus interpretable and enforcable by other humans. Allah's laws are his words and are for all times-- not changable. No one has right of passage when it comes to intrepreting them or enforcing them. Not even closely comparable.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by liibaan:

these "laws" are absolutely horrid.For first-degree murder,the maximum sentence is "life",which is actually 25 yrs,and there is also the "faint-hope" clause,in which a murderer can get parole after only 15 yrs.There is no death penalty in Canada.Tell me where the justice is in that kind of "sentence".

 

Where is the justice in Sharia law where a murderer can be free if he pays blood money and of course the victims relatives accept it...while a theif can not do the same by returning the stolen goods to its owner?

 

Anyone can take a cheap shot against percieved shortcomings of any law. It doesn't help you win your arguement in least bit.

 

I'm not saying Canadian law is perfect, only that you don't see Canada in chaos as result of the inherent flaws of its laws, do you? The entire judicial mechinary of Canada is doing fine as it is regardless of some its short comings. Therefore, there is no need to change them. Moreover, muslims have no right to ask for special rights like having their own laws subservient to Canadian laws. That is undermining the sovereignty of the host nation.

 

 

Allah SWT decides every matter in this world,whether you think so or if you like it or not,please don't twist my words around,I simply stated that if you don't fear Allah,but you fear the people,then why bother even being a Muslim?

 

With all due respect, we need honesty in this debate. Allah is not here himself, he gave us his words and left them to us follow. It is US humans, laden with imperfection and prejudices, that have to intrepret and implement Allah's words. Since we humans disagree on the intrepetations and meanings on just about every subject, it's given that we'll disagree with proper meanings of Allah's laws too. Therefore, it is a bit self-righteous and arrogant for some to claim they KNOW Allah's laws better then others. How so...did Allah tell in your dreams that he chose you to be his translator/interpretor on earth?

 

That's why we have Allah in the first place.Almost everyone in the world has something they are hiding,remember no one's perfect,and Allah will reveal that which they concealed on the Day of Judgement.If they knowingly gave a wrong verdict because of the accused's status or received money for it,they will be very,very sorry on that Day.

Huh? You seem to have fallen the same trap that most muslims fall into when debating this issue. You bring up Allah for no reason then to cover up for your incompetency. You can't defend your contention, so you run to Allah as if the mere mentioning of his role will make your arguement more truer. It doesn't.

 

We all know that Allah is gonna punish everyone guilty of breaking his laws but we are debating what should be done while we here on planet earth to those who do break his laws. You suggest we look the other way with judges knowing full well they are breaking Allah's laws and punishing the innocent all because Allah will punish them in Judgement day. You are basically saying we shouldn't punish those breaking Allah's laws, since these judges punishing the innocent are obviously breaking Allah's laws, because they would get their day with Allah. Aren't we all? Why not then do away with Sharia laws and have free for all to do whatever they like...Allah will punish them eventually, right?

 

Worry about yourself and where you will be on the Last Day,there is no need to complain about the other people when you need to keep yourself in good standing ith Allah first.

I am worried about myself, that is why I don't others to be telling me what Allah wants of me. I tell them all to kindly **** off.