Ahmed el Tayeb: new head of Alazhar.

[NGONGE]

^^ See what I meant about being irritated by you? Actually, forget that. You wouldn't see.

[Castro]

^^^^^ Need some biif-baaf? I've got a spare can over here.

[NGONGE]

^^ No bif-baaf would work on Khayr. Only Sheikh Nuune's quran sar.

[ailamos]

Good work Ngonge!... I'm truly impressed yet a bit tired from these Niqab/Hijab debates that periodically pop up on SOL, this post should've been in the Islam section...

[GoldCoast]

Originally posted by Khayr:

quote:

Marka maxa iga galay

politicised Azhar ama

manipulated Islam?

.

.

.

.

.

 

The child is my responsibility, Islam is NOT

Islam is not your interest or on your shortlist. Got it! Thanks for the update!

The intellectual dishonesty that you've displayed through your question is quite clear given this response. You asked him a question he answered it legitimately and instead of addressing him on the specific points you engaged in ad-hominem attacks,i.e. claiming that those who don't agree with your position are ideologically aligned with the liberal world( whatever that means).

 

The issue at hand, along with countless others debated on this forum do not have a singlecorrect interpretation or viewpoint yet your so rigidly devoted to your own opinion that you've gone far enough to dismiss those who don't agree with you, whilst questioning their identities and affiliations. It's really not a wonder why people are turned off by this type of approach , but I digress.

[Khayr]

but I digress

Indeed you digress much!

[Valenteenah.]

^^ You should compensate us for the exposure to the workings of your brain.

[ElPunto]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

^^ It all boils down to an "Islamic identity and personality"?

 

War adigu iska hayso your identity and personality. I am a Muslim, it's a fact, and it's not an identity, personality or reer hebel thing. I do not treat my faith like a football team that I support when they score and condemn when they miss or appoint a rubbish manager.

 

Al-Azhar indeed caries a lot of weight and it is not for me to judge them or decide on their fatwas. If I like/agree with it, I take it. If I disagree or feel uncomfortable with it (because other scholars dismissed it) I let it go. I do not try to tell people who are more knowledgeable than me how to do their jobs, saaxib. AND I do not badmouth them just because qabqablayaasha said it's the done thing.

 

P.S.

The child is my responsibility, Islam is NOT.

I don't think there is anything remiss about saying that Al-Azhar should be an independant institution free(or rather freer) from political meddling by a repressive dictatorship. Given it's weight in the Muslim world - there is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with saying that this ruling or that ruling was not an objective one but is one that came as a result of political interference. If that is judging - then so be it.

 

Given all the problems in the Muslim world - Al-Azhar needs to step upto the challenges faced as the pre-eminent Islamic institution. Where it fails - criticism, complaints and even lamentations are not necessarily out of order.

[Polanyi]

edit: bear with me guys. I am on a tabliqi retreat somewhere.

[NGONGE]

Originally posted by ElPunto:

quote:Originally posted by NGONGE:

^^ It all boils down to an "Islamic identity and personality"?

 

War adigu iska hayso your identity and personality. I am a Muslim, it's a fact, and it's not an identity, personality or reer hebel thing. I do not treat my faith like a football team that I support when they score and condemn when they miss or appoint a rubbish manager.

 

Al-Azhar indeed caries a lot of weight and it is not for me to judge them or decide on their fatwas. If I like/agree with it, I take it. If I disagree or feel uncomfortable with it (because other scholars dismissed it) I let it go. I do not try to tell people who are more knowledgeable than me how to do their jobs, saaxib. AND I do not badmouth them just because qabqablayaasha said it's the done thing.

 

P.S.

The child is my responsibility, Islam is NOT.

I don't think there is anything remiss about saying that Al-Azhar should be an independant institution free(or rather freer) from political meddling by a repressive dictatorship. Given it's weight in the Muslim world - there is nothing wrong, in my opinion, with saying that this ruling or that ruling was not an objective one but is one that came as a result of political interference. If that is judging - then so be it.

 

Given all the problems in the Muslim world - Al-Azhar needs to step upto the challenges faced as the pre-eminent Islamic institution. Where it fails - criticism, complaints and even lamentations are not necessarily out of order.

It's not for me or you to say. You (with respect) are a mere layman who will only recycle the opinions of other scholars to bash the Azhar with. Why bother? What's in it for you?

 

As for Al Azhar being independent from the state; that is never likely to happen, saaxib. Egypt is an Islamic country (secular government or not). It is not a liberal democracy.

[Polanyi]

Edit: there is a great deal of confusion regarding my criticism of the late Tantawi's actions against the Niqab. It also appears there are Parallel debates going on here as some people are demanding the evidence for Niqab and some are even talking about "humans rights vs religious obligation". Before I agree, scrutinize and disagree with Ngonges sermon, let me just clarify the status of Niqab in Islam and those who have claimed that Niqab is an entirely alien concept of Islam. Then I shall move on to the issue of banning Niqab in all girls schools, the actions of Tantawi and why it does concern us(European muslims).( Sorry for keeping you waiting, Ngonge, but your post warrants more thought and attention).

 

 

There are many evidences and references to the Niqab from the books Sunnah and the early exegeses of the holy Quran by the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the following generations. For those demanding the evidence right here and Now, I have already placed a link containing the status of Niqab in Islam. You can read it in your own time and then perhaps explain to us, which parts do not suffice as evidence. At the time of the incident, Sheikh Yasir Qhadi did a detailed analysis of the proofs regarding the Niqab in the light of the Sunnah. Here is an excerpt of what he said,

 

 

“What perturbs the lesser-educated minds of the Ummah is that this pernicious custom of obscuring the face seems to have crept into this nation rather early. Regarding the interpretation of Surah Ahzab, verse 33, which commands women to ‘…not display your beauty like the women of Jahiliyya did,’ al-Tabari’s Tafsir tells us that even the Companions differed amongst themselves regarding whether the face was a part of that beauty which should be covered or not. It appears that the Shaykh al-Azhar was able to detect something which even the Companions missed: that the face covering had nothing to do with Islam! The pervasive insidiousness of this imported fabric was not limited to the Companions, however. We find each and every classical work of legal jurisprudence – from al-Nawawi’s Majmu to Ibn Qudamah’s Mughni to Ibn Abideen’s Radd al-Muhtar to Ibn Abd al-Barr’s al-Tamhid – have sections dedicated to this issue. Peculiarly, we find all four classical Sunni schools of law discussing the legal status of the niqab, in numerous major work of fiqh, written throughout the centuries of Islam. In fact, we even find schools of law outside of the four, such as Ibn Hazm’s al-Muhalla, that discuss this issue. It is indeed great Providence that we have been blessed with the pedantic wisdom of the Shaykh of the Azhar for being able to cut through and expose such a large conspiracy, which spanned the entire geographic regions of the Ummah, and reached back to the earliest of our times. Without his insight, it would be quite easy for someone to believe that the niqab has been a part of the Islamic tradition from its very inception”.

 

Many past and present scholars alike held the Niqab to be something obligatory upon a Muslim woman. Based upon their understanding of the Quran and Sunnah, these scholars held the face of a Muslim woman to be part of her Awrah, hence why it should also be covered. On the other hand, some scholars took the position that the face is not part of the Awarah and thus believed the Niqab to be something optional; but they also considered it an established Sunnah act and something virtuous. Some Hanafi scholars took the latter position, however, they added the clause that is better for a woman to wear it in times of fitna( testing and tribulation).

 

Islam allows these differences of opinions, so long as they stem from the Quran and Sunnah and the scholar does not come to this reasoning from his personal desires or societal/political pressures. If a scholar does itjihad and he is correct, according to the Islamic Shariah, there is still a reward for him. Likewise, if a scholar did his utmost to do itjihad but came to an erroneous position, then for him there is also a reward. There will always be another scholar to correct the error of another, so the saying goes. I respect the opinion of the scholar who holds the Niqab to be optional the same way I deeply respect the opinion of the scholar who holds the opposing opinion. Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi said:

 

 

“But never do I hold that this opinion — that covering the woman's whole body except the face and hands is the obligatory attire for the Muslim woman — be imposed on the woman who believes in the other opinion, according to which veiling the face is obligatory and uncovering it is forbidden. I will only blame the advocates of the latter opinion if they attempt to impose their attitude on the proponents of the former one and accuse them of being sinful and wrongdoers for adopting it. It is agreed upon that, with regard to the controversial issues on which scholars have given different personal legal opinions, there is no blame to be placed on a person for following a certain personal legal opinion to the exclusion of others”.

 

Therefore, this issue of the Niqab is not about insulting the scholars nor is it a matter of arrogant young men insulting their knowledge. We are only criticising those people of knowledge and the so-called “modernists”, who have decided to ignore all of the Shariah evidences and come up with a completely new innovation: “Niqab is alien to Islam”. Many of the Ulema have also labelled these people, be they scholars or nonprofessionals, as people who are completely ignorant of the Shariah. For example, Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi said:

 

 

“No Muslim scholar, whether among the predecessors or contemporary scholars, has ever been reported to have regarded wearing niqab as forbidden except in the case of ihram for women. The scholarly difference regarding the issue of niqab is only over whether it is obligatory, recommendable, or merely permissible. Thus it is untenable that a Muslim jurist would regard niqab as prohibited or even merely undesirable in Islam. Hence, I was really shocked to learn that the writer Baha' published an opinion attributed to some Al-Azhar scholars to the effect that they believe that veiling the woman's face falls under prohibiting what Almighty Allah has originally permitted. In fact, the advocates of this view cannot be said to be of firm knowledge about the Qur'an or the Sunnah or fiqh. Suppose even that wearing niqab is merely permissible — as I do myself believe — not obligatory or desirable. Even in such a case, any Muslim woman may wear it, and no one has the right to prevent her from doing so. It is her personal right, and in practicing it she neither falls short of her duties nor causes others harm. Even man-made laws and the conventions of human rights advocate the personal rights of people”

 

What is apparent from these quotes of Sheikh Yusuf is that he holds the Niqab to be something optional, yet he is harsh in his criticism ( re: “ they lie about the Law of God ”) of those who have claimed Niqab is alien to Islam. This also the same position Mufti Ibrahim Desai of South Africa has taken:

 

 

“The issue cannot be about whether there is a Shar'i basis of niqab or not. The above references and authorities clearly prove beyond doubt the Shar'i basis of niqab. No scholar can dispute this. Contextually, the issue is that if a woman wishes to voluntarily wear the niqab, especially in a Muslim country, can she be restricted to do so? The simple answer is no, she cannot be restricted. That is curtailing her right of freely practising her Deen and what she correctly understands of her Deen. This right of a Muslim woman is even respected in non-Muslim countries. It is indeed a shame if a Muslim country deprives a Muslim woman from this right. Such a restriction leads one to question the motive behind depriving one of such a right. Is it motivated by political persuasion etc? It is at this juncture the istiqaamat of an 'Alim –e-haq is challenged. Do they really speak for Allah”?

 

Some of the Ulema have even taken the position that mocking the Niqab and insulting women who wear Niqab is, in fact, and act of enmity towards the revelation of Allah(swt) and the Sunnah of prophet(SAW), which can lead to the major disbelief:

 

Q:

What is the ruling concerning one who ridicules those who wear the proper hijab and cover their faces and hands?

Answer :

 

Praise be to Allaah.

 

Whoever ridicules a Muslim woman or man for sticking to and applying the teachings of Islam is a disbeliever. This is regardless of whether it is concerning woman's hijab or any other matter of the Shariah. This is based on the following narration from ibn Umar: At a gathering during the Battle of Tabuk, one man said, "I have not seen

anyone like our Quranic readers who is more desirous of food, more lying in speech and more cowardly when meeting the enemy." A man said, "You have lied and you are a liar. I shall definitely tell the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) about that."

That news was conveyed to the Messenger of Allah and the Quran was revealed. Abdullah ibn Umar added, "I saw the man holding on to the bag of the camel of the Messenger of Allah and the dust was striking him while he was saying, 'O Messenger of Allah, we were just joking and playing. The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) was simply saying the verse of the Quran],

 

"Was it Allah, and His Signs and His Messenger you were mocking? Make no excuse, you have disbelieved after you had believed. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others among you because they were sinners" (al-Tauba 65-66).

 

So ridiculing believers has been equated with ridiculing Allah, His Signs and His Messenger.

 

The Standing Committee (

www.islam-qa.com

)

 

[NGONGE]

^^ Did you watch the video I posted? It would have saved you all this typing, saaxib.

 

Forget all you wrote. Tell me what exactly you thought that man had said?

[ElPunto]

Ngonge,

 

There is nothing in it for me(directly) and it's not a bother. But I disagree that it's not for me or you to say. I as a Muslim am a stakeholder in all Islamic institutions particularly when they have the importance that Al-Azhar does. As long as it is constructive criticism and not gratituitous bashing - I see no reason to circumscribe the ability of a layman or scholar to point out disagreements. They and you then have the ability to counter the arguments made or simply ignore them.

 

No judiciary is truly independant of the state or the cultural millieu but I would like to see the leadership of Azhar elected independantly of the state and for dissent at that institution to be tolerated. That would be a big improvement on the current status.

[Johnny B]

We ( Muslims ) vs The rest of the world ( Liberal Democracies ) ?

 

If you don't take an irrational position and show enough hatred towards the rest of the world(non-moslims), you're not serving Islam?

 

Stuff and nonsense®

[Polanyi]

@Ngonge, sxb, you would have to translate the Arabic video for us. In any case, that post wasn't for you. Naden challenged me to bring one proof regarding the Niqab in Islam and there are folks on this forum people who have claimed(in the past) that Niqab is completely alien to them. I was just laying down the proof for them and clarifying . Secondly, my criticism of Tantawi, as you will see, is not only related to the Niqab issue. Sug Sxb.

 

 

ps.Some Somali people here are slow . When you criticise a man for ordering a young woman to remove her Niqab, one of them will ask you if you are female and give you a rant about womans rights. Talk about the irony.Another one will start philosophising about rationality and "not having enough Hatred for the non Muslims". Seriously, if you can't contrubute ideas, it is better to be silent rather than taking a cheap shots at sheikh Karl Polanyi just because the rest of the SOL clique squad are doing the same thing.