Pictures of Girl turned animal after she threw Quran

[Sky]

kaleidoscopic= I think its rude and quite disrespectful the way you address people in religious matters Rahima and quite contradictory to Islamic mannerism. All I asked was for you to clarify the hadith that you brought forth and you started to foam at the mouth instead and ask me to get the books! Either you know and you’re willing to share dear, or you don’t and in which case you aught to put a sock in it.

 

Like you said, this is turning into a "humiliation session", so turn this around and dont adress me, exclusively address the hadith!

That was exactly my problem too. Ive never experienced somebody trying to discuss an Islamic topic, while at the same time trying to put you down personally.

 

Kaleidoscopic, youre giving her too much credit. Its obvious, she is not able to explain the hadiths she brought forth.

[Rahima]

^Your problem dear is that you have an anger issue (like I and many other have told you so many times before). Address that first before you hurt someone.

 

 

Kaleida,

 

The absurdity of this situation is how you have twisted it so much of it that you actually have begun to believe your own nonsense .

 

You went and searched for a hadith to justify something ridiculous.

Which was? Was I trying to justify this incident or have you once again conveniently forgotten my opinion of it? If you are however referring to my justification of Allah transforming people into animals, it is that which Allah Himself has stated, as a Muslim I will always stand by that, if that is ridiculous to you, then to each their own.

 

Lets leave the snide remarks there and get back to the hadith, shall we?

Love the hypocrisy of it all . You write derogatory remarks to me in almost every single one of your posts in this thread, and then have the audacity to talk about the mannerisms in an Islamic discussion-I’m wondering, do the same laws not apply to your royal highness? If indeed I was being rude and all of that which you said, doing the same in return only highlights the hypocritical tendency which you display- at the very least dear, practice what you preach.

 

I have yet to address any of your points, simply because you were not specific (which I have asked you many many times-mind reading is not my forte). If you had explained yourself earlier perhaps an explanation would of have come your way, instead it was clear from the get go you came armed with opinions of other posts and threads.

 

You never explained or went back to it.

Only because like I explained (and if you had the decency to take it in good faith) I had to search for it (manually and not through the internet, which you can appreciate is time consuming), and as I thought, why the need for me to spend so much time searching for it when there are proofs from the Quran and Bukhari/Muslim which highlight the same point and I have exact references to. At that point, I was under the impression I was conversing with my sister in Islam who was curious about the existence of a particular issue, not an impending argument to discredit me or the hadiths as ambiguous.

 

you didn’t know about the issue

Twisting again. What issue may that be? Could be that it occurred at the time of the nabi? Was that our point of discussion-No! The point was does Allah turn people into animals. Not knowing whether or not it occurred at the time of Rasuallah does not take anything away from the point that I was providing proof for (for someone who was denying the whole point). So what’s your point? See the irrelevance I was talking about?

 

This hadith conflicts with the above verse for the jews in the Sura were turned into monkey and swines(pigs NOT rats) and then the hadith says Rats. The hadith was posted NEXT TO THE verse, yet seems to contractict it. And this my dear, constitutes MIS-QUOTING and MISUNDERSTANDING in my books! This is why THE CONTEXT is important. Something I subtlety tried to tell you in my 1st post…. !

Glad you admit it is your deficiency (which before you loose it, we all have)! The authentic hadiths and Quran never contradict one another (which I’m sure you know). Having said that, I for example know that when I immediately do not understand the link between a hadith and an ayah, it’s always my misunderstanding. However in this case, I did not have any problems with understanding it (and considering that you did not address this specifically and I am not a mind reader, this could not be addressed). The reason for this is that I know that Jews have a grave history of disobeying Allah and they are a race (like Cushitic people), hence one group of Jews were turned into monkeys and swine (for committing sins at a particular time) and another lot rats. Why must they contradict? This is what I meant by when I said it makes perfect sense to me (and I couldn’t understand your reasoning of talking about ambiguity). The two do not have to restrict or contradict one another. It is not even an issue of religious interpretation, just simple understanding. It’s like saying that one group of Somalis in Saudi Arabia were punished with the death penalty, and then saying another group of Somalis in Saudi Arabia were punished with a 10-year jail term for their crimes? Is this contradictory? Different groups of Somalis and just like the hadith and ayah different tribes of Bani Israiil (Jews).

 

Also the hadith seems illogical in context: The prophet scw says he DOESN’T KNOW what the jews did and HE DOESN’T SEE THEM but he is SURE they were changed into rats? HOW? And the rest of the stuff about milk and rats…. Not a clue here!

Ali R.A was quoted as saying that (something to the extent of) if Islam was built on just logic we would wipe the bottom of the khuf (leather socks) when making ablution and not the top, because as dictated by common sense, the bottom is dirtier than the top. With that it becomes evident that ones common sense and perceived logic is not something to rely on. As for this particular case sister, could it possibly be that Allah has offered some of the knowledge to the nabi and not others (e.g. some surahs in the Quran, such as surah Qaf, the prophet did not know the meaning of the first ayah)? The wisdom with this is with Allah. We see this many a times; Allah reveals some of the knowledge and not all. It is not meel kadhac of the prophet, he didn’t know it all and it is not like I made up the hadith-IT IS IN Bukhari. Now you are questioning the actual matn of the hadith, not context, and you cannot acknowledge the significance of Bukhari and ask such questions (you must always know there is a reasoning).

 

As for the not seeing them and knowing, he was a prophet, it was knowledge inspired to him by Allah (which we should all know)- this is exactly the same as him knowing many things he did not see with his own eyes, for an example just take a look at the many hadiths based on scientific phenomena- so are we then to deny those hadiths because we then say HOW DID HE KNOW BECAUSE HE DID NOT SEE THEM? Basically, the moment that I read such a hadith (considering that its authentication is very clear), I don’t doubt it for one second and hence when nabiga says that “Nobody knows what they didâ€, then the answer is but simple! Allah did not inform him-Rasuallah was only but a man and he only knew that which was taught/inspired to him by Allah. The other issue is, if you acknowledge that Bukhari is all saheeh you acknowledge that every single last hadith is that which was said by Rasuallah and hence cannot doubted, even if something does not make sense to you.

 

As for the camel milk issue, according to the Torah (as was believed/is believed by the Jews) products of camels (be it meat or milk) are forbidden-hence the rats also did not drink the camel milk but did drink the milk of the sheep (which is allowed in the Torah).

 

This hadith conflicts with the verse in the Sura AGAIN for it says beasts. Also, does this mean the fact that they were turned into lizards is clear and the specific lizards have no identifying ways or whether they turned at all is unclear? Does it refer to the same time as the Sura?

It is a translation! Beast can also be translated as animal.

 

Are lizards, monkeys, swine all not animals or beasts-however you want to put it (I realize that beast is especially used for large four-legged animals, but it can also be used for all animals). Also the hadith states a tribe of Bani Isra'il. There were many tribes which made up Bani Isra’il, not just one, once again no contradiction. It’s like saying a tribe of the Somali people, it doesn’t mean all Somalis, just tribe X.

 

The hadith does not conflict with the ayah, it may seemingly be that way to you, but the Quran and an authentic hadith do not contradict one another.

 

I personally do not follow this entire hadith. The 1st part seems general, while the second part specific. Care to elaborate?

Which part exactly? Is it the “And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, 'Return to us tomorrow.'�?

 

This isn’t authentic, so no need to go into it. The authentic ones are ambiguous enough.

IT IS a sahiih (authentic) hadith girlfriend! How did you come to the conclusion it is not authentic? Abu Dawud although it may not be to the status of Bukhari and Muslim (for there are daciif hadiths), does have many sahiih hadiths. I actually have it in front of me right now in Arabic- Volume no. 2 (all sahiih hadiths), page 763 to be exact (that classified separately into authentic and daciif hadiths by Sh. Albani Rahimuallah). Just go to you local Islamic book store and hopefully they will have all the volumes (be sure to ask for that set out by Sh. Albani to get that exact page number, if not look it up).

 

Final note, NONE of these hadith prove anything.

Even after the explanations of your concerns, you still hold to that? Even after the explanation of the hadiths and ayah do you still believe that Allah has not/will not turn people into animals?

 

All I asked was for you to clarify the hadith that you brought forth and you started to foam at the mouth instead and ask me to get the books!

You might want to go back and re-read your replies to me. Perhaps a few things might become clear; primarily the rude and disrespectful way you addressed me- uncalled for .

 

exclusively address the hadith!

I think I have!

[-Serenity-]

So we were so effortlessly supposed to connect the dots miya? Must be me. :rolleyes:

 

Rahima, your unpaid research was weak. Now you have blatantly said that the Quran (the complete book) just mentioned ONE tribe (and specified the animals regarding the same tribe) of the jews in the sura while conveniently leaving out the rest so that the “hadith†can reveal the rest. I’m not home but I’A when I do get there, I’ll show you proof that there weren’t a tonne of Bani’esreal tribes that were transformed at different times into different animals which is exactly what ur feedings us!

 

About the rest of ur blah blah… this lil charade of righteousness is tedious. I’ll let you have the last word, Walaahi I could barely read all that drivel, let alone respond to the number of inconsistencies in your entire argument.

 

At that point, I was under the impression I was conversing with my sister in Islam who was curious about the existence of a particular issue, not an impending argument to discredit me or the hadiths as ambiguous.

[Rahima]

So we were so effortlessly supposed to connect the dots miya? Must be me.

All you had to do was ask politely mate ! Nothing which I have stated above though is complex.

 

Rahima, your unpaid research was weak. Now you have blatantly said that the Quran (the complete book) just mentioned ONE tribe (and specified the animals regarding the same tribe) of the jews in the sura while conveniently leaving out the rest so that the “hadith†can reveal the rest.

For the ayah, not necessarily just tribe but also group (there were whole tribes of the jews which incurred the wrath of Allah). A tribe is a type of group no? Likewise we can say the group of jews which incurred the wrath of Allah or the tribes of the jews which incured the wrath of Allah-wording woman, wording! I see that when you have nothing else you want to argue over the small matters which don’t change the point that you disagree with- ALLAH DOES CHANGE PEOPLE INTO ANIMALS, hence the point which you somehow missed was, the ayah and hadith do not contradict (which you were saying before), why? Because both are not speaking about the Jews as a whole! Rather of groups and/or tribes amongst the Jews, be they particular tribes or a group involved in a particular sin together. Either way, it doesn’t change the point of this whole discussion. What I find most amusing is that every time I address one of your points, you become obsessed with another choice of words, one time it was the beast matter and now the group/tribe issue. Get over it and stop being so trivial. IT DOESN’T CHANGE THE POINT I WAS MAKING! Why don’t you just admit you are arguing over absolutely nothing?

 

BTW, the hadith and Qur’an complement one another. The Qur’an although complete DOES need the Sunnah for it to be fully understood. The Qur’an commands that we pray, the Sunnah (hadiths) instruct us how. You cannot have one without the other!

 

I’m not home but I’A when I do get there, I’ll show you proof that there weren’t a tonne of Bani’esreal tribes that were transformed at different times into different animals which is exactly what ur feedings us!

Lord have mercy :rolleyes: , this is what I mean by looking for just an argument. Cajiib walaahi.

 

Even if we say for arguments sake it was the same tribe, but at different points in history, or that it was the same tribe at the same instance of history, what bloody difference does it make to this particular discussion?

 

This is useless. You don’t even bother acknowledging any important issues elucidated, rather all you can do is concentrate on minuscule matters which are either a choice of wording ama don’t have any weighting on the core of this discussion.

 

About the rest of ur blah blah… this lil charade of righteousness is tedious. I’ll let you have the last word, Walaahi I could barely read all that drivel, let alone respond to the number of inconsistencies in your entire argument.

Righteousness? rich coming from you . If memory serves me correctly, was it not you who was preaching about the Islamic mannerisms in one paragraph and then hurling insult at me in the next? Must be me :rolleyes:

 

But please continue your maturity and considering that you will be going to all the trouble of showing me that there was not more than one tribe of Bani Israeel (like it changes anything in the objective of this discussion), why don’t you point out my "inconsistencies". Me is thinking that you want the address the former because you think you are onto a good thing (gotta get it out, gotta make my point -I on the other hand can’t wait to give you explanations for anything else you throw my way ), but all my other “inconsistencies†well let’s just say you disagree with them, but don’t really know why.

[-Serenity-]

I wonder why you’re so furious and spitting holy-swathed insults my way all day (prolly because I'm right on every instance! ). I said I’ll get home and get back to you? And here you are going off at half cock. Could it be that I caught you by the short and curlies?

 

I’ve completely lost any respect for you Rahima. And I didn’t insult you, I gave you sound advice. If you keep up this little shameless parody without making an ounce of sense, I’ll quit replying to you and lock this topic. Find somewhere else to vent your frustrations.

[Rahima]

^I'll save you the trouble honey, flex your moderator powers if you so wish. By making such threats you are hurting SOL, for basically what you are saying is that one cannot disagree with a moderator for fear of just that-makes no difference to me really, but it will deter many nomads from conversing freely with moderators. If indeed I was being rude at times, it is very obvious from our exchange that the action was not initiated from my corner and having said that, considering that the moderator herself was involved in it, it’s ludicrous to even take such action.

 

But it is a smart move, when it gets too hot, quite replying and close the topic-much easier for you than addressing the actual point .

 

I on the other hand will not be replying till you address the objective of the discussion (which you defined to begin with)instead of circling around small detail which does not change the big picture or jumping on word selections.

 

Address the issue of Allah turning people into animals and your claim that the hadiths were ambiguous. Address all the remarks you made about contradictions (beast/animal, rats/monkeys-swine) in light of my explanation to you. Elucidate on what exactly you were right about for thus far you have being wrong on all accounts unless you want a summary (and don't even bother trying to analyse Rahima-I'm refering to the topic). And finally explain how you came to conclude that the hadith as narrated in Abu Dawud is unauthentic, when it is in sahiih abu Dawud (and I gave you even the exact page).

 

When you do so, instead of going on about how many tribes (which is why i responded before you got home, it's a non-issue for this discussion and there was no need for you to avoid the important matter and waste your time), i shall respond. Till then i shall concentrate on important matters.

 

As for the respect, I’m not sure about you, but i don't converse here to gain the respect of people. If you had respect for me or if you don't, no difference to me .

[-Serenity-]

This discussion is over. You're NOT deserving of an answer.

[OG_Girl]

I can't believe this!Sister Rahima,I don't think any one here questioning what Allah can do or can't.But simply this story is fake and fabricated. No need to go and search and quote hadeths you can't even go back to the original sources (Arabic ofcourse) and throw people's face in order to win an arguement!!

 

If was that simple I wouldn't waste four years majoring Fiqh and Tafseer.Even now I'm more careful than before,I read the Qur'an more carefully (with two different Arabic-Arabic dictionaries by my side to tell me the meanings of the ORIGINAL words instead of the interpreter's understanding and beliefs).Most people learn religion from word of mouth, by trusting other people like heads of religious whatever you call sheikh, imams, scholers!Investigate anything and everything you come in contact with,blind faith is rather useless and downright dangerous.

 

PS:Hope you wont take it in bad way. I am just saving you time and energy.People have all rights to ask for explanations, this is their faith they can't gamble and just take it from you or any one else for that matter.

 

Salam

[Senora]

^^^^ Salaam Sis! Good seeing you again

[Rahima]

Og_Girl,

 

Looks like you did some skim reading (understandable with so many pages) because you missed the crux of the discussion.

 

The topic was not about this incident as such (we’ve all acknowledges that it is a hoax, I wrote this in my first post), but rather has Allah turned people into animals and will He There was a nomad who did not believe this and I provided him with proofs of it indicating that just because this story happens to be a lie, it does not mean that Allah does not turn people who have incured his wrath into animals. Basically this was the topic at hand; if you read all the posts carefully you will see this.

 

And nothing taken to heart sister . I have no problems with being addressed and asked any questions, but there is no reason to be rude and disrespectful which is why I responded in the manner that I did (which I realize is not the excusable). I don’t see how you can say thata hadith is ambiguous and when asked how so, you can go on about the intentions of the poster, get angry, focus on simple wording in the English language (which doesn’t change the point) and then make claims that saxiix hadiths are unauthentic-like I said I had all the Arabic in front of me, with the interpretations. When she specified her concerns, I responded to them. Till the issues as I have explained are addressed, I am done with this anyway .

 

Anyways good to see you back

[dawoco]

Soomaalidu gumeeysi jeclaa, Alloow ceebta noo astur.

 

As for the topic, Allah's power is unquestionable, just look at us and how our body functions for a prime example. Everything we do and are attest to the infinite power of our creator. So whether Allah can turn those that blasphemy into animals isn't questionable, as i'm sure most will agree. But whether that has happened yet?

 

I'm shamefully ignorant where the religion is concerned, so without the knowledge needed to interpret the hadiths, it is better to be careful with arguments regarding the Quran to avoid errors, as og-girl has pointed out.

 

But to both sisters' credit, they were putting an effort and time into understanding the Quran and our religion, which is admirable.

[Mutakalim]

Oh, how want of islamic erudtion is the hadith brigade.

[Rahima]

^We don't even agree on the fundamentals right? This topic is nothing.

[OG_Girl]

Mela, Thanks... check your PM

 

Edit:Dawaco wallalo,not only learning but without doing extra research and reading for yourself, that is a very dangerous way of learning religion because without adding our own research we dont know if what we are learning and passing onto others is true or not, all we're doing is breeding more ignorance.And exactly that what I see from none native Arabs as well some Arabs.Before you read interpret you have to know that Arabic language is different than any other language no wonder Allah chose it for last message to all humanbeen.was revealed and challenged to a nation (Arabs) whom were mastered in their language and Art of the language.I am really suprised how some of us so ignoring the fact of when we want to know some thing about health we go to the doctor who is especilized that specific field and so on.. But when it cames to religion every one wants to copy and past from book they know nothing about it!! See Muslims!!... Well... let me zip my mouth before some one eat me alive

 

Originally posted by Mutakalem:

Oh, how want of islamic erudtion is the hadith brigade.

 

Exactly my point. But people don't like the truth . So I let them have it. What to say we are defferent I wish if I was that simple

[-Serenity-]

Soomaalidu gumeeysi jeclaa, Alloow ceebta noo astur

It’s a lot easier to shout foul than to be in my position and resist the temptation to reply in kind to offending arguments.

 

While I realize some might take pride in their knowledge of Islam, a good Muslim always knows his boundaries and limitations in it just as well.

 

As a moderator, its my responsibility to ensure that topics don’t deter into an “embarrassing exchange†or belittlement of members. This is just to safeguard the basic principles on which the site is run.

 

I like to think I’m a reasonable and approachable person and that when some1 feels they are being wronged or has a problem with me or other members, they can just PM me assured in the knowledge that I’ll be as fair as possible. On that same note, when I feel some1 is sending contradictory and ambiguous notes in the pretext of teaching the rest of us about Islam, I have every right to call them out. No matter what any1 says, a lot of hadith needs to be accompanied by a logical and time lined explanation. In this regard, I’ve never questioned whether Allah could/would turn people into animals. Neither have I invalidated the hadeeths as false. I took an issue with the presentation of facts. That said, this topic has outlived its usefulness 10 replies back and has failed to get back on track despite my efforts (prolly not good enough on my part – I agree) and shows promising signs of continuing in the same vain from the looks of it and on that account will be locked. Under no circumstance is it acceptable to disrespect me, or each other.