A world without Zionism

[checkmate]

All his saying is that " it's right there in all the scriptures, no jews will be left in the world. So why beat around the bush? I tell it as it's"

_________________________________________________

 

The straight-talking ultra-conservative, who won a shock election victory in June, went on to criticise "international Zionism and the expansionist policies of the world arrogance" -- terminology usually used to refer to the United States and Israel.

 

"They are cheeky humans, and they think that the entire world should obey them. They destroy Palestinian families and expect nobody to object to them."

 

Source: www.turkishpress.com

[Qandalawi]

This topic made huge popularity on the world stage, it was rather a quick and unprecedented remark by the Iranian President, and later used by the west espcially American and United kingdom as an excuse to tell the world that Iran remains to be a danger entity to be dealt with. I know Iran is a tough country but sure this made live a lot harder for them and put question marks over their nuclear intent.

 

Will see what the brings on the table.

[Socod_badne]

Not a smart move by a leader of a major nation. World leaders -- unless they wanna commit diplomatic suicide -- don't make public statements calling for the annahilation another country AND its ppl. It is not the sort of talk you expect to hear from 'responsible' leaders.

 

What has his talk achieved but attract unwanted attention to his country in addition to raising doubts about his judgement in the minds of those who still aren't sure what to make of him(if he's making blunders like this, can he be trusted to preside over a nuclear nation -- assuming Iran acquires nukes within the next couple of years?).

[FatB]

you make its sound that the pressence of the isrealy state is legal?

[NGONGE]

^^^^

The superpowers (and most of the West) recognised Israel as a legal entity the minute the state of Israel was declared in 1948. So, at least from that angle, Israel is a legal state.

 

 

The PLO (the body that represents Palestinians) recognised Israel as a legal and sovereign state when signing the Oslo agreement in 1993 (or was it 94?). Egypt full recognised Israel in the Camp David agreement of the early 80s. Jordan recognised Israel in 1994 (I think).

 

Many of the remaining Arab (and Muslim) countries are willing to recognise the state of Israel as soon as the issue of occupied lands is resolved (the occupied lands are only those that were taken after the 67 war. Anything before that is widely accepted now to be part of Israel proper).

 

Syria has a territorial dispute with Israel and would jump at the chance of resolving it (favourably of course). Lebanon has bad history with Israel and is too weak (for now) to go against the wishes of the Hezb-u-allah movement in the South. A movement that vows to carry on bombing Israel until the last bit of occupied Lebanese lands is given back (Israel claims that disputed land is Syrian and not Lebanese and insists that it will only negotiate with Syria there).

 

So, as you can see, Israel (at least in political terms and in the view of international law) is a legal state.

 

Still, it was amusing to watch the Iranian leader ruffle a few feathers (especially when one takes into consideration the racket being made about Iran’s nuclear ambitions).

[LANDER]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

^^^^

 

 

So, as you can see, Israel (at least in political terms and in the view of international law) is a legal state.

 

^

Somebody loves to play devils advocate.

Don't mind if I jump in here Ngonge, and yes I am here to cross examine . So do elaborate for us just how this international law makes Israel a legal entity and perhaps you could take it a step further to the heart of the matter, and tell us exactly why it hasn't allowed for the creation of the Palestinian state? (at least thus far)

 

BTW, I don't think Hezbollah limits itself to regaining the Golan Heights from occupation, rather I think they're more along the lines of other militant groups such as Hamas who don't recognize Israel all together and advocate for the return of Historic Palestine (leaving no room for Israel). Mind you Hamas might alter its charter upon its entrance into palestinian "democratic" politics and Israel is actually making some back channel meetings with certain members of Hamas as unbelievable as it may sound, they too have an interest in seing Hamas become a "legitimate" political entity they just won't admit it publicly.

[Suldaanka]

I think Mr. Ahmednaj would rather look across the Atlantic if he was true to his words.

 

Here is a good article from a Confused Christian.

 

-------

Dear Abby: Do Israelis have Christians in their Government?

 

By Terry Thurber

 

Al-Jazeerah, October 26, 2005

 

 

 

Dear Abby:

 

With all the focus on the outing of [at least one] CIA agents in the news pointing to Libby and Ledeen, our Vice President’s advisors, and the NYT reporter, Judith Miller, I have noticed many stories that [anecdotally] indicated these persons are [also] Jewish. Now don’t get me wrong, many close to me are Jewish, but few of them would fabricate stories that would attempt to bring harm to someone or draw the nation into a war that has killed thousands of Americans and Iraqis.

 

But, this story perked my interest as to the make up of our government based on religious affiliations. I have read that the Clinton White House staff enjoyed a 55% Jewish ratio, while our current White House only enjoys a 35% Jewish staff. I also learned than many private employment agencies in DC specialize in the placement of Jewish prospects. I have not learned of any agencies that specialize in placing Christians in our government. Of course, that does not mean there are none.

 

It is disturbing, however, to think that most of the 98% of Americans that do not practice the teachings of Judaism, are too incompetent or simple minded to participate in the decisions of our government at a ratio that more honestly expresses the demographics of our great country

 

I [also] learned that John Negroponte, our previous ambassador to the UN when Iraq was invaded, is Jewish. I have learned that the Honduran Commission on Human Rights has a complaint against Mr. Negroponte. It is strange that our nation would have an alleged human rights violator as a UN Ambassador. It is [equally] strange that Negroponte, as well as Paul Bremer (both Jewish) would be placed in positions of authority in Iraq, especially given the sensitivities of Arabs to the Zionist State when it seems their trust for what our government is doing is so critical. I also note that under Bremer and Negroponte, almost 10 Billion dollars, belonging to US taxpayers, seems ‘lost’ to embezzlement; and that Israel, of all countries, is now in the oil business inside the borders of Iraq.

 

If we look at other cabinet positions in the US government we see that Jews have served us proudly, many times in the past, in positions as critical as the Secretary of Defense. But, there is also concern, as many have described, regarding the heavy weighting of Jewish participation in the so-called neo-con group at the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans. The OSP gave America the PNAC treatise, the invasion of Iraq, and a beating of the drums to invade Iran. And now we learn that a government official in the OSP, Larry Franklin, and two executives of the Israeli lobby, AIPAC, have been indicted for espionage, against the US, on behalf of Israel.

 

However, is has been difficult to get a read on Christian participation in the government of Israel. I cannot find information that breaks down high level advisors to Israel’s government or cabinet positions or ambassadorships, based on religious affiliations. It would be very easy to accept that Israel, a nation with the highest regard for American interests, a nation that [also] enjoys a very special fiduciary relation with the US taxpayer, would [also] place Christians (the de facto state religion of the US) in high and important positions (in the Israeli government) at least at a ratio that is par with the Jewish representation America enjoys in the US government. But alas, that information is difficult to locate.

 

So, Abby, are Christians in high level positions in the government of Israel?

 

Regards,

 

Confused

[NGONGE]

Heh. Saaxib, I’m not playing devil’s advocate at all here. I’m stating facts.

The person above used the word ‘legal’ and I merely explained the legality of the state of Israel according to international law.

 

I fear you’re being slightly cheeky by bringing up the issue of a Palestinian state and attempting to link it to the legality of Israel (at least, in the way I explained it above). It would have been better if you asked me if I thought of Israel as a legitimate and sovereign state.

 

Still, we might as well talk about Palestine and why there is (as yet) no Palestinian state. The one main and major reason is because the PLO has not declared such an entity yet. The late Yassir Arafat threatened to do so a few times but always held back. The current leaders of the PLO have been muttering about declaring one but daren’t do so without the permission of the world powers and the tacit approval of Israel. Legally of course (International law again), they’re allowed to create their very own independent and sovereign Palestinian state. However, in practical terms, such a state will merely be a phantom state with not enough land to govern and no control over its air and waterways. The Palestinians, have no choice but to carry on negotiating with Israel until they’re given enough land and control over that land to declare their nation as born again. It’s what Yassir Arafat realised after years of fight and resistance. It’s why he called it the peace of the courageous when he (mistakenly IMHO) signed the Oslo peace accord.

 

I’m very pessimistic about a Palestinian state (a fully functioning one) being declared anytime soon. Ariel Sharon has never been a man of peace and has never approved of Arabs in ‘Jewish’ lands (including his very own citizens). Should Sharon be ousted from power in the Likud party, his most likely successor (Bibi Netanyahu) is not expected to be a softer touch or better alternative for the Palestinians!

 

As for Hizb-u-Allah, I’m not sure where you get your information from, saaxib! Are these facts or opinions? As far as I’m aware, that group declared its willingness to lay down its arms and stop bombing Israel as soon as that state demonstrated that it does not want to invade Lebanon (again) by withdrawing from the Lebanese part of the Golan Heights (as things stand, officially, this is the deal. Behind closed doors though, we all want rid of Israel and Israel wants rid of us, I guess). Resolution 1559 demands that it does and I fear that, sooner or later, it will.

 

Again, I am not playing devil’s advocate here. One has to clarify what is a serious discussion based on facts and one based on emotions or conventional (Arab/Muslim) wisdom.

[STOIC]

I am also pessimistic of seeing a full fledged functioning Palestinian state any time soon.One thing we have to realise is that the number one priority of the Israel is to occupy as much Palestinian land as they can(You don't have to beleive me on this one).I think the Arabs did a big blunder when they rejected the 1947 UN partition of the British controled Palestine in to two state:one for Jews and one for Arabs.Eventhough Arabs argued then and now that Palestinian should own majority of the land since they are the majority, the fact remains today that Israel is a fully recognized sovereign nation while Palestine is a stateless Island sorrounded by American made Humvees.Edward Saeed was viewed as a party pooper by the PLO when he rejected the Oslo peace Accord .Today the PLO is realising that Saeed was right in his prediction that Israel is playing the delay tactics .

[Viking]

Originally posted by Socod_badne:

Not a smart move by a leader of a major nation. World leaders -- unless they wanna commit diplomatic suicide -- don't make public statements calling for the annahilation another country AND its ppl. It is not the sort of talk you expect to hear from 'responsible' leaders.

 

What has his talk achieved but attract unwanted attention to his country in addition to raising doubts about his judgement in the minds of those who still aren't sure what to make of him(if he's making blunders like this, can he be trusted to preside over a nuclear nation -- assuming Iran acquires nukes within the next couple of years?).

Always amusing to see Somali neo-con wannabes Bush declared Iran as one of the four "Axis of Evil" and Israel has always viewed them as the most dangerous threat to their Zionist state. Do you seriously believe it really matters what Ahmedinejad says?

[LANDER]

At ease Ngonge, your stiffening up sxb I have a habit of attacking people who’s opinions differ from mine, even though a closer look will likely reveal we’re not so far apart on this matter. I’ll give you one thing and it is that I state opinion but believe me sxb there are “facts†to back up those opinions, and it was facts that I awaited from you when I asked you the question regarding International Law. Instead you make very vague allusions through out your post to this thing called “International Law†without really giving us any facts. Sure you mentioned resolution 1559 which was passed last year I think, but we know both know it doesn’t really contribute to the question of Israel and Palestine as “legal†entities. Yet, that is as close as you came to backing up your references to International Law. Tell you what man, here’s what I would’ve like to hear you mention: First you could have told us just what is this International Law? We’ll we agree that international law (at least as far as the rights of states and the laws governing inter-state relationships on the globe go) refer to the United Nations charter, resolutions, conventions etc… Many of which can trace their origins back to the Nurenburg trials after WW2 but lets not get into that as long as we agree on this. What you could’ve mentioned is the Plan for Partition (Res.181) and priorly the Belfast Accord and how they relate to Israel and Palestine. You could’ve mentioned how this “international law†allowed for the partition of the Palestinian homeland whitout the consultation of the Palestinian people themselves, furthermore you could’ve elaborated that at the beginning of 1947, Palestinians numbered over a million compared to the newly arrived population of 600 000 jews that owned about 5% of the land area and yet the partition plan gave them about 55% of the land area which in fact denied the RIGHT (these are the same ones from the charter keep in mind) to more than 1/3 of the Palestinian population to EVER live in an independent palestinian state and were to live under the jewish state by “international lawâ€. Another fact you could’ve mentioned is that the United Nation at the time was overwhelmingly comprised of, ah….How should I say this? WHITE people or the politically correct term is 90% western nations, but nonetheless it’s “International Law†who are we to question it. Than you could’ve moved on to resolution 194 which states that “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date†and of course the ever quoted resolution 242 which states a return to the pre-67 borders and resolution 338 later adopted to re-affirm it. As any good Zionist you could’ve argued that in the Balfour accords there is actually no mentioning of “Palestinians†but rather “Non-jewish communities†and in the mandate a mentioning of “arabs†and subsequent to 1948 and many key resolutions (including 242 and 338) were Palestinians are simply reffered to as “refugees†and therefore NO recognition of their rights to their national existence and rights to state that is under “International Law†once again, if you wanted to be a real pain you would’ve went on to criticize 242 as being “ambiguous†as the English text unlike the French text found below (french text 242) , refers to retreat “from territories†which could be interpreted as different from the other official document in French which saids “des territories†(a little more specific). If those were some of your explanations, I would’ve said NGONGE my friend you make good points. Nonetheless, the partition plan (181), res.242,338 194…and whateva else you can think of, call for the creation of 2 states and that is unequivocal and furthermore the right of “refugees†to return to their homes which also is unambiguous in this “International Law†and yet has Israel obeyed any of these laws? What “legality†does it have that could be denied to the Palestinans? Didn’t the Palestinian National Council (PNC) In ’88 declare a Palestinian state? Furthermore accepting in principle resolution 242 and 338 which they had priorly refused due to the reference of “refugees†and not “Palestiniansâ€. So who or what is legal and illegal, I am confused you see my friend? You speak of Phantom states but to me the only real phantom is this thing we call “International Lawâ€(opinion), nevermind the fact that it is grossly unjust and unfair (My personal Opinion here), but it simply is not clear who or what is in violation of International Law and what is legal or who is a “Legal†entity and who is not. Maynnnnn I sure hope you understand this international law thang better than I do, cause I'm sure as heck confused

 

P.S if you need any sources for any of the facts I mentioned, feel free to ask.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by tHe oNe aNd OnLy:

you make its sound that the pressence of the isrealy state is legal?

Isreal is legal, why wouldn't it be. It was voted by the UN in 1947.

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by LANDER:

BTW, I don't think Hezbollah limits itself to regaining the Golan Heights from occupation,

I thought the Golan belonged to Syria. Why would Hizbollah -- a labenese group -- wanna regain Syrian territory?

[Socod_badne]

Originally posted by Viking:

Always amusing to see Somali neo-con wannabes

Bush declared Iran as one of the four

"Axis of Evil"

and Israel has always viewed them as the most dangerous threat to their Zionist state. Do you seriously believe it really matters what Ahmedinejad says?

Hey! That is not fair! I demand an apology :mad:

 

Why would you say I'm a neo-con wannabe, huh?

 

FYI, I'm long time card carrying, die-hard neo-con veteran. I have the wounds to prove it. I'm as real as they come. I guess you could say I'm somalia's first neo-con. I was a neo-con before I was born!

 

Bush should have invaded that Ayatollacry (Ooops Iran ) after he overthrew Saddam 'the Butcher of Baghdad.' I think this is just a short respite, ya know time to heal the wounds, strengthen forces and allies. Rest assured we WILL overthrow that autocracy and free the Iranian ppl from the clutches of tyranny. Our Holy Crusade is still on the march albeit to different beat.

 

It's chic to be neo-can nowdays

 

Afterwards, we'll get rid of the UN and replace it with UD -- United democracy. We intend to build a world of democracies where the non-democratic nations will be our NATURAL enemies.

 

Which side are you on?

[Jacpher]

Originally posted by Viking:

Always amusing to see Somali neo-con wannabes Bush declared Iran as one of the four "Axis of Evil" and Israel has always viewed them as the most dangerous threat to their Zionist state. Do you seriously believe it really matters what Ahmedinejad says?

Afkaada caano lagu qabay! You'll be amazed to see how many believe what FOX broadcasts. Obliviously this nomad swallows it as it is. It’s said if one keeps repeating propaganda over and over long enough, it’s taken/becomes a reality.