Cartoon Protest in London...

[Castro]

*** SPACE FOR RENT ***

[Jamilah]

I recall a Sheikh say at a lecture I once attended that the problem with the Muslim Ummah today is their tendency to magnify trivial inconsistencies between one another and yet downplay the other BIGGER issues :eek: . Sadly the postings of the nomads here have proved this is such a case. I do not have time to do a reread to make specifications. I think this is a good thing considering when I read the verbal exchanges between parties I get the impression defending their “honour†becomes a priority over conceding defeat, or more accurately accepting the facts. Some speak of long term actions but I can’t help think this is a yearning by some to be accepted or shall I say to make integration a real possibility when it comes to the west. If this is the case than I must disabuse you of the notion- because it really is a lost cause. I refer specifically to those who compare us to other societies such as the Jews and Christians and how they would deal with such an ordeal. Integration means compromising your values or more precisely your Islamic morals. I have no doubt many would deny this sentiment and the thought really saddens me. That is not to say we cannot be respectful guests in the non-Muslim countries we live in but must remind ourselves a the end of the day we are nothing more.

 

Now, in regards to the cartoons itself like Rahima said

I’m sure all who attest to the oneness of Allah are angered by it

How we project are anger is significant but not to the extent we should account all the blame to fellow Muslims. The protest in which the original poster Mr Labo refers to I believe was motivated by an emotive response to a deeply offensive slander against the holy Prophet and not the intention to propagate violence (this is despite what is indicated in the titles of the posters). Some question the point to such a protest, and I question the purpose of continuing a debate the only fuels the disunity plaguing Muslims. :confused:

[Kashafa]

^ That's the truf.com ! on-point and well-thought out analysis, Jamilah. comments coming up after the commercial break.

[nafta]

For the past few days I have been following this thread and the replies that the nomads are throwing at each other back and forth.

 

Muslims all over the world are outraged. Our prophet (pbuh) has been disgraced.

 

I just find it ironic that we are outraged at cartoons which depict him as a terrorist, while there are nutters out there who strap themselves in explosives and take the lives of innocent people all in the name of muhammed (saw).

 

So, I ask you all, why are we not outraged then? Why do we say, illahey ha u naxa riisto those people and then continue our daily chores. Why don't we take to the streets then and lobby for our diin and prophet. Our prophet's name has long ago been tarnished, not by them but by us. Surely there is nothing more that can be done to damage his image more?

[Castro]

NGONGE, I appreciate that "roundabout" way of bringing me out of the darkness and into the light. I'm not entirely unconvinced. Though I'd like to make some clarifications which are important in this discussion.

 

You wrote:

If I ask you to drop the Hijab or pray only twice a day, or even, not loudly voice the controversial (to western ears) parts of the Quran, you would vehemently refuse and say (rightfully so) that you, as a human, are in no position to revise the creator’s commands! You would, ironically enough, accuse me of trying to limit your freedom of expression (faith). You (using Western standards) will of course be correct in your accusation (others will accuse me of much more, but that’s because they probably can’t read and actually believe this is what I’m calling for here).

Saaxib, I'm not sure we're on the same page here. This could be a natural product of our geographical locations (and the laws that exist therein). Freedom of speech is distinct from freedom to practice religion. You constantly, and incorrectly, bundle the two into freedom of expression. Practicing one's faith is a right where I live. You can believe anything you want as long as it causes no harm to anyone else. Freedom of speech (again, where I live), while also a right, does not include religion, per se, but it has some elements of religion in it when public statements are made. A Khutba in a mosque is protected by freedom of religion. It is a message to the faithful of that religion and is not a public statement to everyone in that city, country or the world. For you to confuse that with the cartoons is beyond me. I do understand, however, you may think they're the same (both freedoms of "expression) due to the environment, culture and the legal system that exists in that part of the world. If we agree on what I wrote above, you will see that, ceteris paribus, we can have some form of consensus. Alas, all factors remaining the same is but wishful thinking in this particular case.

 

Islam being unique, "loud", political and all the other things you called it does not descend it to an "expression", an opinion or a thought. It's both a faith and a way of life. A cartoon in newspaper, on the other hand, is an opinion, an expression and an (un)thoughtful statement made with the purpose to denigrate and insult. And while both are protected by laws (again, where I live), surely the two are not the same. Most speech is free. Denigration and insults are not. I've flogged this dying horse (of a topic) enough. Won't you give it its last rites?

[Khayr]

Originally posted by Blessed:

Kashanre

,

The ‘any means necessary’ argument was coined by Malcolm X when he was a protégé of Elijah Muhammed when He entered into Orthodox Islam, he adopted a more sober, Islamic approach in his fight against racism. In Islam we don’t have a concept of ‘any means’, we have the Quraan and the Sunnah. It’s sad that in all this activity no one stopped to ask; What would the Prophet (saw) do?

 

Here we have brothers glorifying terrorism and Bin Laden at the expense of Muhammed (saw), foolxumo miyaaney ahayn?

 

The following is an email forward titled:

 

The Muslim Ummah is Sick

Bismillaahir-Rahmaanir-Raheem

 

InnAl-Hamdu lillaahi Rabbil-'Aalameen as-Salaatu was-Sallam ar-

Rasoulullah ar'kareem.

 

As-salaamu `alaikum

 

Reference: Based on part of a Khutbah delieverd by Mu'tasim al-Hameedee at Masjid al-Ghurabaa, Luton (UK) on Friday 10th September 2004

 

The Muslim Ummah today is afflicted with a severe sickness. Many of

those, who claim to be Du'aat, who claim to be calling to Islaam,

they don't have patience. They don't have patience to learn from the

Scholars. They don't have patience to go through the steps that

Allaah has set for the Believers. A step after a step, one step at a

time, in order to bring back victory and honour to Islaam. Rather,

they think that with their own emotions they will bring victory to

Islaam. But, what they do, they bring destruction to this Ummah.

 

They know that the Muslims are not upon correct `Aqeedah, correct

Belief. They know that the Muslims have indulged in sin. They know

that the Muslims are so weak in their Eemaan. They know that the

Muslims have turned away from Allaah but they want to bring victory

and honour to the Muslims Ummah. They think with just one word, or

with rioting in the streets, or with killing people here and there

whether they are kuffar or not, whether they are innocent people or

whether they are soldiers who fight the Muslims, that they will

bring victory to the Muslim Ummah.

 

They don't have knowledge to seek proper understanding of the Deen.

They don't have patience in order to seek this knowledge. In order

to cultivate the Ummah upon the true religion and bring the Muslims

back to their Religion. And this is where Allaah will bring victory

to the Muslim Ummah.

 

Allaah talked about those kinds of people in the Qur'aan by saying:

 

"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting)." (4:77)

 

As it is not time...

 

People came to the messenger of Allaah (sall-Allaahu `alayhi was

salaam) and they said to him:

 

"O Messenger of Allaah, lets us go and fight the kuffar! They

expelled us out of our country. Let us go and fight them!"

 

The Prophet (sall-Allaahu alayhi was salaam) told them:

 

"It is not time yet. We are not ready yet. There is a lot of Eemaan

to be instilled in the heart of the Muslims."

 

There are a lot of physical preparations that has to take place. It

is not a matter of emotions, it is not a matter of haste.

 

"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting) and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give

Zakaat..." (4:77)

 

So at that time when Muslims were being humiliated by the kuffar,

and those people wanted to fight the kuffar. Allaah (subhaanahu wa

ta'aala) said to them:

 

"...hold back their hands (from fighting) and perform as-Salaat

(IqaamatasSalaat)..." (4:77)

 

Your strength lies in the Prayer...

 

Many don't understand this. Many don't want to understand this.

 

"...and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give Zakaat…"

(4:77)

 

The Muslims were humiliated, were attacked. And the kuffar were

preparing themselves to annihilate the Muslims and wipe them out!

And Allaah was saying to them:

 

"...and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give Zakaat..."

(4:77)

 

And today the same people come back and we say to them: "Seek

knowledge! Call the Muslims back to their religion! The Muslims have

to stick to their religion before the victory comes from Allaah."

This is how Allaah has set the way for this Ummah.

 

And they say to you: "The Muslims are being killed all around this

world and you say to us seek knowledge! And you say to us, teach the

people Islam!"

 

They think you are an ***** while you (in reality) are following the

Qur'aan and the Sunnah. They don't realise that they have no

understanding of the Qur'aan and the Sunnah. They only follow their

emotions. And what is the outcome of their actions? Destruction upon

the Ummah!

 

The Muslims are being attacked all over the world now. All around

the world they are mistreated where ever they go. At airports, where

ever they travel. Hassle and harassment upon every Muslim! Every

Muslim is accused. Every Muslim is a criminal! How many people

turned away from Islaam?

 

So Allaah sets the example of those people.

 

"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting) and perform as-Salaat (IqaamatasSalaat), and give

Zakaat..." (4:77)

 

So when fighting was written as an obligation upon them what

happened to them?

 

"...but when the fighting was ordained for them, behold! a section

of them fear men as they fear Allaah or even more." (4:77)

 

So those who are in a rush, those who haste to bring victory to the

Muslim Ummah through their own emotions, when the real time for the

battle comes and the time for the real fight against the kuffar

comes we will see them the first ones to turn their backs and run

away.

 

Are these my own words? We find it in the Qur'aan of Allah

(subhaanahu wa ta'aala) in Soorah an-Nisa.

 

May Allaah make us of those who take heed!

 

Subahanaka Allaahuma wa bihamdika ashadu a laa illa illah anta

astagfirouka wa at-tabu ilaik.

 

Was-salaamu `alaikum

SALAMZ,

 

They don't have knowledge to seek proper understanding of the Deen.

They don't have patience in order to seek this knowledge. In order

to cultivate the Ummah upon the true religion and bring the Muslims

back to their Religion. And this is where Allaah will bring victory

to the Muslim Ummah.

 

Allaah talked about those kinds of people in the Qur'aan by saying:

 

"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting)." (4:77)

 

Blessed,

 

I am confused why you used that bayan/talk that used verse 77, Sura Al-Nisa.

Have you not seen those to whom it was said: Withhold your hands, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; but when fighting is prescribed for them, lo! a party of them fear men as they ought to have feared Allah, or (even) with a greater fear, and say: Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us? Wherefore didst Thou not grant us a delay to a near end? Say: The provision of this world is short, and the hereafter is better for him who guards (against evil); and you shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.

 

From what I have read, according the Mufassuuron/scholars of Quranic Tafsir like Imam Shawkani, Imam Tabarazi, Imam Razi and Imam Qurtabi and Imam Suyuti that Ayat (77), SURA AL NISA, was revealed in the context (sabab al nuzul), to address particualr sahabas/companions, in particular 'Abdur-Rahmaan bin 'Awf & Sa'd bin Abee Waqqaas (whom happen to be one of the 10 Companions that were promised Jannah by the Rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm).

 

These were 2 of the greatest companions and it dealt with the incidents that began in Mecca, when they wanted to fight back the hostilities that were inflicted by the Qureysh/ Mushrikeen. The Rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm). advised them not to start retaliation. When it came time for the battle of badr, the same companions showed fear of men and had DOUBTS of Death in Fighting.

 

 

According to the Scholars of Tafsir, this wasn't a sign of Hypocrisy on the companions part, but a a sign that it is HUMAN HABIT to hate Fighting. The ayat showed these companions that they feared dying ...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us? Wherefore didst Thou not grant us a delay to a near end?...(v.77, sura nisa) but Allah showed them the benefits

Say: The provision of this world is short, and the hereafter is better for him who guards (against evil); and you shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone. According to Imam Razi, fighting doesn't mean that you are losing out on doing GOOD. Its actually a praiseworthy thing and in doing so and possibly dying, you are not being wronged or done unjustly. This ayat gives a deeper insight into Divine Wisdom and doing what is commanded by ALLAH- Say: The provision of this world is short, and the hereafter is better for him who guards (against evil); and you shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone

 

They don't have knowledge to seek proper understanding of the Deen.

They don't have patience in order to seek this knowledge. In order

to cultivate the Ummah upon the true religion and bring the Muslims

back to their Religion. And this is where Allaah will bring victory

to the Muslim Ummah.

 

Allaah talked about those kinds of people in the Qur'aan by saying:

 

"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands

(from fighting)." (4:77)

I disagree in the 'selectif usage'of SOME this ayat b/c it re-enforces TIMELESS PACIFINESS in muslims aka Turn the other cheek and be more patient FOREVAAA!

 

Even the greatest of sahabis/companions ERRORED but yet they learnt from their error and repented and that is what we are to do, inshallah.

 

The issue is the Honor of the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) and not nonsensical,unfounded anger. Remember that hating and loving something for Allah is a praiseworthy thing.

 

But I want to ask you, Blessed this-

 

We are not in Mecca anymore and the 'MEDINA'(ideal muslim state) that people want is not AGREED UPON by ALL. Some say its arabia, sudan, iran,etc. The ummah led by the ulama differ on this.

So what is the UMMAH to wait for?How long should they wait and be PATIENT and seek More KNOWLEDGE? Colonialism has carved up the muslim world, so what is the right muslim state now?

 

Who determines ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR? There is no Amir Al Mumineen anymore, so who?

 

As for 'what would the Prophet (salallahu caliyhe wasilm ) Do'?

 

There were companions sent out to fight poets, false prophets etc. who Insulted and spoke ill of the Rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm) and his message.

 

P.S. I read this hadith reported Ahmed yesterday and indicated how the shaytan whispers in the muslims ears everytime they are about to take on something like salat,zakat,geexad etc. and the shaytan would remind the muslim that he had a wife and wealth to worry about if he went for geexad or some other thing to cling on, to prevent the muslim from doing salat, or paying zakat etc.

 

Fi Amanillah

[Socod_badne]

^^^Shiekh Kheyr, give it up. When you went from shiekh Kheyr to sheikh , Jannadii baa ka faraboodey. Nothing Islamic you say holds water anymore, time to retire.

 

[ February 08, 2006, 19:49: Message edited by: Rahima ]

[Asxabul_kahf]

Salama aleykum

 

Dear muslims, I am angry and confused, please help clear this for me...

 

I know every muslim is angry, and they have every right to feel this way when those kufars insulted our beloved prophet s.c.w . However, my question is ...

 

Is protesting the only way? is it productive enough to get our MESSAGE and the message of our prophet s.c.w to spread islam across? what would be the result of such protest or flag burning ceremony....is it to proof our love for the prophet and islam? really Is there ikhlas in all of this, Are We gonna be like that COCO COLA GENERATION that sheikh abdurahman green talked about. He said when they get shook or something happens, they make it BIG DEAL and they go hyper and runn around all over the place like when a coke is shaken and opened and a small amount remains at the end of the day to deal with the continues issues.

 

Yes we should be angry, But all our actions should be in accordance with the quran and sunnah..this is where it gets tricky. Muslims are divided on how to react, but yes they do share the feeling. Other who are saying otherwise....ITAQILAAH! this is your brother and sister in islam you are pointing the finger at. It is not a surprise because we were not ready for something like this, It is a TEST to this muslim UMMAH cant you see. This a test from Allah.

 

I know the number never helped the muslims, Or how violant they could get, or how smart they were technologically. Allah helped them!, Their love for allah and their eagerness to follow the prophet in all maters helped them. Their taqwa, iman and ikhlas helped them DEFEAT ANY ENEMY.

 

 

"..and on the Day of Hunain (battle) when you rejoiced at your great number but it availed you naught and the earth, vast as it is, was straitened for you, then you turned back in flight. Then Allâh did send down His Sakinah (calmness, tranquility, and reassurance, etc.) on the Messenger (Muhammad ) and on the believers, and sent down forces (angels) which you saw not, and punished the disbelievers. Such is the recompense of disbelievers." [9:25,26]

 

 

The prophet s.c.w made it clear to them and taught them that their duty was to spread the message of islam and fight those who fight with them regarding this message. Priority was the dacwah and deen always...TODAY it seems that we only want to fight, but no purpose, if there is a purpose we forgot it.

 

Now you might be saying this to your self...Wait a minute, these muslims are angry because they love the prophet, they are doing this to fight for islam, they are standing for what they beleive...unfortunately they are doing it the wrong way!

 

They can turn that anger to energy to focus on spreading the deen, Those protests to dacwah conventions and dikr to praise allah openly, those flag burnings to spreading knowledge, those shouting obscene words to akhlaq, boycotting is all good, but why not help poor muslims around the world with the millions of dollars you buying with cheese, why not voice your opinions about the struggle of muslims to other muslims who have no clue! THERE are SO MANY PRODUCTIVE THINGS TO DO...OTHER THAN to burn flags and look violant infront of the mainstream media.

 

please let me know...any thoughts or reactions

 

forgive me if i asaid anything wrong

[Pi]

^^looooool

 

SB: Atleast does not plagiarize like some people or just use the cut-and-paste escape hatch. Even though I kinda find it hard to make out the meaning of his weirdly paragraphed and CAPTION-ridden posts, it's still orginal. is a good man.

 

[ February 08, 2006, 19:52: Message edited by: Rahima ]

[Asxabul_kahf]

some people prefer to be negative when it comes to the deen. May allah guide them and save us from their sinister hearts. No matter how long they set the trap, Allah has the final judgement.

[Blessed]

Salaams Khayr.

 

I am confused why you used that bayan/talk that used verse 77……

It elaborated on the my thoughts on the subject and being the lazy person that I am, I just did a copy and paste job.

 

The speaker is not ant-jihaad. He is addressing the ignorance in the Ummah that has lead to most of our ills.

 

The obligation of jihad in occupied Muslim lands is obligatory- that’s a standard agreed upon by all scholars across the board, there’s no detesting that and it’s not what the talk or this thread this about.

 

Since we’re on the issue of jihad (full on), allow me to elaborate on it a little; the scholars’ say that it’s duty of Muslim countries to establish this jihad and not individuals. However, we both know that's not happening. Apart from gaalo plots Kheyr,why is that?

 

Victory is not achieved through spontanous reactions every now and then- that's obvious to all of us. It is a reward from Allah and not from our own doing:

 

“Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls)†13: 11

 

I disagree in the 'selectif usage'of SOME this ayat b/c it re-enforces TIMELESS PACIFINESS in muslims aka Turn the other cheek and be more patient FOREVAAA!

 

Even the greatest of sahabis/companions ERRORED but yet they learnt from their error and repented and that is what we are to do, inshallah.

Which is why we need to stop, think, study the deen and correct our mistakes. How can we learn if we are insistent upon being right? How can we correct ourselves if we refuse to evaluate our actions and their consequences? I'm not naive enough to expect total perfection in the Muslim world, niether am I too cynical to know that we can do better.

 

 

The issue is the Honor of the Rasul (sallahu caliyhe wasilm) and not nonsensical,unfounded anger. Remember that hating and loving something for Allah is a praiseworthy thing.

Love and hating for the sake of Allah is actually fard. But did I say anything to hint that we shouldn’t be angry?

 

You know full well that am disagreeing with the methodology employed and not the emotion.

 

Honestly Kheyr, you need to stop this thing- it's very disturbing, Subxan Allah!

 

 

But I want to ask you, Blessed this-We are not in Mecca anymore and the 'MEDINA'(ideal muslim state) that people want is not AGREED UPON by ALL. Some say its arabia, sudan, iran,etc. The ummah led by the ulama differ on this.

 

 

So what is the UMMAH to wait for?How long should they wait and be PATIENT and seek More KNOWLEDGE? Colonialism has carved up the muslim world, so what is the right muslim state now?

That’s my point, there isn’t a strong Muslim state / leadership willing to lead the Muslims. Islam is only our secondary identity, the Muslims are fighting within themselves, our governments are the most cowardly and corrupt in the world. Islam has no place in our lands, we're materialistic, confused and hopeless.

 

So what to do- bomb France? No, we need to get our house in order because Allah commands us to do so in the Quraan.

 

We already have the answers, so all we have to do is look at the Seerah of the Prophet (saw). He (saw) has spent over a decade teaching the companions about the basic fundamentals of faith. Victory my brothers is not our own making, it is a reward from Allah;

 

“Allaah has promised to those amongst you who believe and do righteous deeds that He will of a surety grant them inheritance in the land.†[Noor 24:55]

 

It’s a promise walaal, the fact that we’re in this sorry state is testament that we haven’t met the specified conditions yet.

 

Who determines ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR? There is no Amir Al Mumineen anymore, so who?

 

Is this a trick question? Acceptable behavior is, has been and will always be determined by none other then Allah. We access it through the Quran, Sunnah and the people of knowledge.

 

 

As for 'what would the Prophet (salallahu caliyhe wasilm ) Do'?

 

There were companions sent out to fight poets, false prophets etc. who Insulted and spoke ill of the Rasul (salallahu caliyhe wasilm) and his message.

1. They were under guided leadership.

2. It was done within the boundaries of the sharia.

 

Did they start burning down their own properties, killing each other in the process of defending the prophet? (4 people died in Afghanistan today) Did they cross the boundaries of justice ordained in the Quraan? Call for the killing of innocent civilians? Tell me Kheyr…

 

And how about the times when the Prophet (saw) didn’t retaliate…. Different approaches were used at different times to further the cause of Islam.

 

 

I read this hadith reported Ahmed yesterday and indicated how the shaytan whispers in the muslims ears everytime they are about to take on something like salat,zakat,geexad etc. and the shaytan would remind the muslim that he had a wife and wealth to worry about if he went for geexad or some other thing to cling on, to prevent the muslim from doing salat, or paying zakat etc.

There you go and do it again. It’s an affliction, I tell you.

 

But tell me Mr "I love Islam more then everyone" Why aren't you out there waging the jihaad your raving on about?

 

What have you done to defend the Prophet (saw) besides bully Nomads...?

[NGONGE]

Castro,

 

You’re mixing your oil and water here, saaxib. I’ll admit my ignorance of North American laws; however, I still doubt that those laws can stand in the face of what I’m saying here. I understand the difference between the two freedoms you mention but I’m arguing that those two freedoms can and do often overlap. This is why I went through the painstaking process of explaining how the other faiths work, separation of church and state, and the assertion that Islam is a political faith (as in way of life, etc).

 

Now, you say that that there is a distinct difference between the two freedoms (i.e. freedom to practise one’s faith and the freedom of speech/expression). I don’t at all disagree with that. Alas, many of our fellow Muslims often hop and skip between the two. To hammer my point home, let me give you the example of Hezb-Et-Tahrir. Theirs is a political movement, yet it’s based on faith. Their main argument and goal is to turn the entire Western world into a Muslim world. Another example is Abu Hamza Al Masri (he was sentenced to seven years in prison yesterday). He too was spreading a political Islamic message (and it eventually put him in jail). Bin Laden and his followers are also political in their aims. There are other various groups with similar messages and goals. That I disagree with all the aggressive groups is not the point here. The point is that these groups, in the West, often politicise Islam and bring their message out of the mosque (note, I’m not calling it the message of Islam here). Once it’s out in the open terrain of politics it ceases from being a message of faith and becomes one of expression. When I mentioned the hadeeth about the Jews, it was put forward in that context and not in what is being preached in mosques. You’re saying these positions and aggressive postures are protected by laws that protect faith. I’m saying that once they’re out in the open and are used to support (all sorts of) Islamic actions it becomes an issue of expression and can be tackled by the state.

 

You say:

 

A Khutba in a mosque is protected by freedom of religion. It is a message to the faithful of that religion and is not a public statement to everyone in that city, country or the world. For you to confuse that with the cartoons is beyond me

I’ve already replied to that in my earlier post when I said:

 

Almost every Friday, the Imams of mosques all over the world will talk about the plight of the Muslims and how desperate our situation is. They’ll, almost inevitably, talk about the wicked Jews, dreadful Christians and ghastly non-believers. You have to understand here that I’m not mentioning this to criticise these Imams (that argument we leave for another discussion), what I’m trying to point out is that all these assertions are offensive to Jews, Christians and non-believers. Again, if this were confined to mosques, it would not have mattered to the points I’m trying to make. However, it’s not! These exact points are later on peddled by ordinary Muslims and declared loudly by all and sundry

We live in highly charged times and the boundaries between faith and politics are not as clean cut as you’re trying to paint them. At the moment, the freedom to practise one’s faith is granted and enshrined in civil and human rights laws. However, with the constant clash between faith and state, I don‘t think it‘s a far fetched idea to suggest that, sooner or later, and depending on our actions, laws will be changed to curb these freedoms. Here I’m talking mainly about Islam, though the Christian church and its refusal to acknowledge homosexuality will also contribute to the change.

 

I’ll flog that dead horse one final time and invite you to read the charges levelled against Abu Hamza and see if by sentencing him to seven months in prison, the law courts have breached his freedom to practise his faith (remember, he was not the only one ‘inciting racial hatred’).

 

 

This is what the judge in the case said about him:

 

Passing sentence at the Old Bailey, Mr Justice Hughes told Abu Hamza: "I do not make the mistake that you represent Islamic thinking generally. "You are entitled to your views and in this country you are entitled to express them, but only up to the point where you incite murder or use language calculated to incite racial hatred. That is what you did."

Source - Better read it in full

[Johnny B]

Originally posted by NGONGE:

I’ll flog that dead horse one final time

My Emperor is far from beeing injured let alone dead, and if there is anyone who can sum up the meanings and corresponding implications inherented in a every term you utter , it is HIM.

 

I think , you two would agree with me if i hinted that things are getting further fetched for the old cartoons.

[Castro]

^ I'm having to explain to my co-workers what's happening with these cartoons. Predictably ( ), almost all of them share NGONGE's opinion. So I'm, literally, having to fight NGONGE day and night.

 

NGONGE may be more interested in changing how Muslims behave than changing western laws to curb free speech. Though he won't come out and say it. I'll read that stuff he listed up there and see what I can come up with. Someone has to stand up to the guy.

[xiinfaniin]

^^You’ve seized the truth of this argument, good Castro, and, with a superb eloquence, stated your case. It’s difficult, however, to battle with sheer sophistry, and a dead horse, my good friend, might not be too dead for some to flog . ‘Give it his last rites’, and let it rest, I say.