Originally posted by umu zakaria: How do you define success Peacenow? Italy is a christian country, do they live by the bible? No, Do you blame all its failure on Christianity or rather lack of it? There are many Successful Islamic nations namely, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and many others. Somalia will be prosperious and peaceful as it used to be once upon a time. Every country including the Italy u supposedly live in and mainland Europe had one of the worst wars and famine in history? Do you blame it on Christianity? You are Ill informed and full of hatred. You testify that u did not read the Qur,an, yet again label it wrong. Saudi Arabia is not a successful country. The yardstick is would you leave the 'kaffir' white land you live in now and move there. The answer would no. You would never live there. You are too comfortbale dpending on the white christian man, for everything you have. Then condeming him in return. If you live by the scripture and the 'Qu'ran' says don't befriend them, then why are you living there? Surely your paradise would be a country under shariah law? Doesn't matter that the shrine you pray too 5 times is there. The rest of the countries are not Islamist, they are only Islamic in the sense that the majority is Islamic. It helps of course that you have oil. Which means you can afford to sleep all the day as someone else would be doing the hard work. In Malaysia, the growth is driven and the economny controlled by the Chinese. Who are by in nature quite 'agnostic'.

Originally posted by Thierry: Why are most of the wealthy people from the USA? I am going to summarise the answer to one of my exam questions. From my analysis there are several factors that have led to do this: 1. Being the leading liberal market economy the US has always favoured entrepreneurship, the reason behind this is that their social and historical roots is different from continental Europe which is the nearest rival. The thing is nomads Europe at the turn of century was controlled by a group of elites, the monarchs, aristocrats etc as a reaction to this privileged minority the masses set up workers unions where their rights was respected and pushing the European nations into the socialist path. America on the other was a new land, many of the people that migrated were the poor and those looking for new opportunities, the people there where not subjugated by monarchs and as a consequence did not need to protect themselves by setting up Unions. 2. During the industrialization period Americans shifted their focus to materialism, coupled with strong entrepreneurship drive some talented people came through such as the rocafella family, Ford and GM. It is all about historical incidents. Take the Siyad Barre regime, when he adopted the socialist framework in Somalia it was bound to fail because the Somali make up did not require a socialist model. We did not have a class system to overcome, in fact we are more similar to the US then most if not all European states mark my word. i agree with everything you said Thierry. Now we are getting to it. The bread and butter of success. We know what works, so why don't we apply. America has led the way. What do you think about Somaliland adopting a flat tax system? To drive and consolidate these kind of principles, forward?

Don't shout at them. Show them respect. Have you noticed - how westerners always speak to them as equals. I do.

For one thing I agree with you. I would not wish Italy on anyone. Believe me this country is heading down to the toilet. But there you go. One has to make do. I asked you name me one Islamist country that is a success and you gave me Iran. Someone is trouble, aren't they. I have read the Qu'ran. My views on it are clear. I'm interested in the nation state and and this concept called 'Somalia'. Point after point is made of what makes a nation successful. Religion is not one of them.

It is a symptom of fear. If your religion is the 'one'. Why do you fear and panic when these issues come up.

I would hope that we develop to a point where we can accept differences without 'stoning or killing'. Typically though, some of the points show the true islamist character, really. The discussion shows how low and far behind Somalis are. At least 200 years behind others. I woyld dearly wish that more Somalis learn about other religions, and if they decided to be jewish, hindu or christian. Then that would be fantastic. Power to them.

Originally posted by ThePoint: ^ The question is: what has Islam go to do with a particular country being a good or bad place to live? i believe you are aiming that at 'Seekknowledge'.

Iran is not a sucessful country by any measure. In fact if it is the model you hold up - then you are really in trouble aren't you. The easiest counter point is would live there yourself? The answer would most certainly NO. The real truth is that it inisde every Islamist there is nothing but a hollow and empty shell. Because you demand others to be 'cleaner' than yourself. When you are by any definition not a model to emulate. So the result is failure. [ December 31, 2007, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: Rahima ]

Originally posted by Seekknowledge: Dude get out a little bit more instead of being glued to the "televisione". Iran has a democratically elected government (unlike bush). Women are part of the parliament (decision making). Unlike popular believe Ahmadinajad has the only parliament in islamic countries where the minority Jews are represented. It is the only muslim country who openly condems Zionism (bear in mind Zionism is different from Jews faith). That is more than the Italian mafia government and the amazing thing is THEY ARE MUSLIMS. And where do you live? I can bet you any dollar it is in some white man's country. More likely the great satan itself. I would give a ounce of credence to what you are saying, if you are living and 'thriving' in Iran today. Probably not, but the looks of it.

Originally posted by Northerner: Good question but then again why is the Congo with all it's gold, diamonds, iron ore, copper and zinc not a filthy rich country? What are western companies/countries doing financing rebel groups there? What happened to the rule of law? Well you answered your own question there, didn't you?

Originally posted by Seekknowledge: Iran is an almost successfull Islamic State. Please. We are all intelligent people.

To be fair to Africa, there are countries in Africa that have success, lets look at Botswana. Its better of than Malaysia or Thailand. Now that country is 'medium rich' today by any standards. How did it achieve it? They all share important factors. The opportunities are there for African countries but they don't seizie it. They can easily use existing channels to export things like textiles, but they don't. Cause there is no manufacturing industry to speak off. How can Vietnam export nikes or t shirts and not a African country?

Tell me a Islamist state that has been a success in recent memory.

The opportunity is there in life, will you grab it? Why are countries poor and others rich? What do the successful ones do? If you are clever you would use the 'white man' to trade yourself out of poverty or better still with each other. The world is full of opportunity my friend, don't buy for one second the Islamic/Lefty mantra.

You were tring to critize why i have a job that requires I have a suit. The standards is so law in Somali Islamism. Fate determines i should waiil and cry, no? I refuse to live my life as it is some big huge waiting room. Counting the days tll i diue so i can enter 'heaven'. I make my own faith. If every Somali had the same work ethic and believe in the rule of law, the country would be like Singapore ..right now. Instead what? Chewing leaves, mutuilate bits of your body, wail till judegment day, and yeah bleed the kaffir white man of welfare payments, don't matter that he is Christian. That is ok, when u take his money. But then denounce him and cry islamism in every thought. The worst kind people. Hypocrites. Sick.

Not as secular as we know it. You are a moralist you expect everyone to live as you do, when people plainly do not. You want and demand that people live 'good and pure' when your life is anything but. Secularism says that we understand this, let's create a division and play to the best strengths of the human condition. It is the best deal and it works a treat in nearly country which has applied it. Would you live in America or Saudi Arabia? No brainer really.

I go to work and make a living for myself instead of doing what other Somalis do, which is to sit in their asses all day, chewing leaves, dreaming of some caliphate, when they are housed, fed and secured by the white man. 'The great satan and kaffir'. There is nothing contractdary or hypocrisy about me. Which is what all of this shariah law and islamic falsehood is all about.

Originally posted by peacenow: Oh please. Are you serious to suggest Iran can hold up to one second to the USA?? Let me tell you that in you Islamic state of Iran you have more drug dealers and users per capita than anywhere in the world. More prostitudes and corruption than you can shake at. So much for their 'good and pure' state. The country is a hole. The result is there to see. Islamism doesn't work, people don't want it. I

Oh please. Are you serious to suggest Iran can hold up to one second to the USA?? Let me tell you that in you Islamic state of Iran you have more drug dealers and users per capita than anywhere in the world. More prostitudes and corruption than you can shake at. So much for their 'good and pure' state. The country is a hole. The result is there to see. Islamism doesn't work, people don't want it. I

[ December 31, 2007, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: Rahima ]

If you want to get into a argument about what is fair, well that is different to what i said on the prima facie of the point of rule of law. Do you agree with the principle or not. The question he asked is how did many people in America become so rich. Why do people thrive in a country like the US than in say Iran. The EU CAP is exercised under legislation put forward by the EU. I don;t think that is the same as the principle of due process which governs a modern nation state. Governments have ratify it, but there is a process to it. The issue is If it is law, then it must be applied. As that is what governs us. Now i may not like the CAP, then again i may not like the law that says i must pay a tv license if i have a v in my home. But law is a law.

I'm referring to it's priciple and the most important application of the rule of law is the principle that governmental authority is legitimately exercised only in accordance with written, publicly disclosed laws adopted and enforced in accordance with established procedural steps that are referred to as due process. Business or Commercial it would all fall in line.

Shariah is in place in Saudi Arabia. Go and immigrate to it. I dare you! No you are all to happy to dream about Shariah when you are fed and housed by the white man.

Come down to what i was saying, if the rule of law is in place and the system worked, then anything is possible, even in Somalia. Put faith in the rule of law and not in religion.

Originally posted by Caamir: The biggest contraversy in Islam has always been the textual interpretation of the Kor'an and Hadith. But the topic of Female circumcision(mutilation) has nothing to do with Islam contrary to what the news implictly imparts in regards to the cause of her beating. [ December 31, 2007, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Rahima ]