Originally posted by Cara: The parents' rationale includes a whole plethora of health reasons for their decision. I'm at a loss at finding them Cara. Perhaps you could oblige me by listing them. Thx. The slippery slope argument is old, saaxiib. It would stop at the point were the surgery would do unacceptable harm to the child, harm that outweighs any benefits. Much like any other surgery, I suppose. You're right. The slippery slope is ancient. But it is a useful discussion to have even only to outline one's moral and ethical boundaries. Applying your boundary line to the above case - what is the benefit of removing her breast buds(eg to ease discomfort as opposed to the harm possible during any invasive surgery). I would argue that fails your test. Would you say not?

Originally posted by Naden: ^ Words like 'dismember' and 'mutilate' are unnecessarily sensational and editorialyzing. Medical necessity is one determined by physicians and ultimately agreed upon by family. Have you ever carried a toddler wearing a snow suit? They're bloody heavy and may not be more than 35lbs. You're right. I had a touch of the hysteria going around lately on SOL when I wrote that much as I tried to avoid it. I'm not sure medical necessity is determined by either physicians or family. After all, breast implants are done routinely with the approval of physicians and family but hardly anyone can argue they are medically necessary. Medical necessity is directly tied to one's health. If a positive health result can be reasonably expected from a medical act without which a negative effect on health may result - then it is medically necessary. I didn't understand the reference to overclothed toddlers - so what if they're heavy - get a wheel barrow. Wiping the @ss of a 30lb., 50lb., or even 70lb. child is doable. Carrying them up and down a flight of stairs is difficult. Now, imagine carrying a 150lb. woman. She is also doubly incontinent and unable to turn in bed and prevent bed sores. She is not now but will have eventually become heavy and at serious risk of obesity and resultant stuff like heart and kidney damage. She may still develop health problems but remaining at about 4'5" and 80lb. is what the parents can handle at home. Reducing her health risks may also help delay institutionalization as much as possible. I'm not sure why you keep emphasizing current weight, future wieght and large weight. What does that have to do with medical necessity? It has nothing to do with it. It has to do with convenience. And I will readily admit to that. Wiping the azz of 50 pounder is much easier than a 150 pounder. As to the possible negative health outcomes mentioned. At this point - it is purely speculative in nature. And you omitted a critical component - that of diet in determining whether this child will in fact become obese ans suffer the related illnesses. Comparing this family's plight to families with Down's syndrome children is inaccurate. While a range of mental and physical competency exists for this syndrome, many afflicted can gain independence in mainting personal hygiene and even social functioning. I only brought up Down's Syndrome because of a previous post by Cara where she stated: "If I had the mental age of a 3 month infant, I would want my physical body to be in that age range, or as close as could be managed." In that case, I legitimately brought up the argument of individuals with Down's Syndrome where many have a mental age much less than their physical age. Thus, a key question related to her justification is: Do you perform unnecessary surgeries on these individuals to keep their mental and physical ages close? ie do you sterlize a mature female with Down's Syndrome who has the mental age of an 8 year old etc etc.? I don't know all the details of the case and don't necessarily understand the partial hysterectomy (& leaving the ovaries), but from what I've read it's not an easy decision and certainly not one that extends itself to an approve/disapprove or agree/disagree public discourse. I agree - it's not an easy approve or disapprove. And I fully sympathize with the family's situation. But it is important to not obfuscate the issue(and here's where an intelligent discussion can illuminate the debate). The sugeries undergone by the child have to do with convenience for the parents and little to do with medical necessity. If they(parents) and others simply stated that - I would respect that. I don't agree but I would respect that - I just dislike this attempt at cloaking their intentions with medicine.

^It has nothing to do with defensiveness. It is a direct query into the validity of your accusations which you have not substantiated. Here is my belief in a nutshell - Disarmament is necessary and good for Mogadishu, its environs and the rest of the country. That is it. It is not about rehashing the ICU record or whom did what when. It is about the present and how to move forward to a better Somalia. What is your belief in a nutshell?

^Well - here is an a non-religious and non-ideological argument. Why dismember or 'mutilate' someone if it is not necessary for one's health? And if it is a question of keeping one's mental age in proportion to one's physical age - many who have Down's Syndrome would find themselves affected by this point of view. Where would it stop?

^^Hmmm - but that is the question. Were her parents correct in their actions that they said were 'for the best'? Do you agree?

^^A little more adult like eh? I'm glad you're learning. Please show me where I posted 'false messages on boards and pass it over as argument'? Did I say the ICU did not disarm moryaans and remove checkpoints? Nowhere did I say that. If you have proof come with it. "There are no more Moryans and Roadblocks in Mog." That is not the case at present. Check out these threads: http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=008512;p=1#000001 http://www.somaliaonline.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=008502;p=1#000000 It seems there is a fundamental disconnect. You seem to be talking about the past and I am talking about the present. Let's try and keep any debate to current events.

hmmm - it seems the overriding impetus behind the parents' actions seem to be to minimize any discomforts associated with caring for her. Small so they can lift, no uterus so no child they may have to look after etc It seems to me that the standard of care should be what is best for the health of the child. If the health of the child requires no surgery then no surger should be performed.

^Why did u dig this up?

^The only clarity you bring is your penchant for insults in lieu of cogent arguments. Congratulations - that qualifies you as the speck of dirt on the doorknob. In case you didn't know - the ICU is not in charge of Mog anymore. As such, to prevent Mogadishu from going back to its status quo - action on disarmament must be taken.

Originally posted by Dhubad: quote:Originally posted by General Duke: ^^^What do you mean by this? I mean, it is only logic if the disarmament should be started from Puntland in order to win the trust of the people of Mogadishu and the rest of Somalia otherwise JUG JUG MEESHAADA JOOG . Are the people of Puntland plagued by roadblocks, check points, moryaan and general insecurity or the people of Mogadishu?

Originally posted by Halgan: ^^^^ You may claim that there are a few in the IUC leadership who fit in the description of warlords.. but compared to the above people, they are saints. Saints? That certainly is your opinion. And it is about as valid as those who hail the TFG 'warlords'. Sxb. You are making a mockery of the word process by stating "The process for the TFG was out in the open ". What you call a "process" ended up in giving us 70+ cabinet that consisted of who is who in regards to warlordism. A flawed process is nevertheless a process. The ICU cannot claim any process whatsoever however flawed. And yes - 70 cabinet members is a travesty. But then the process can be revised and retooled. Ahh the inestimable benefits of a process.

Originally posted by Castro: quote:El Jefe - u must stop seeing Somali politics as an adverserial, zero-sum game only. Hardly the way to move things forward in a fractured and complicated society such as Somalia. I wish I were the one who saw it this way. In reality, it's not far from how you describe it above. Furthermore, I didn't bring any Rwanda comparison. All I'd like to bring to your attention is: the TFG starting with disarmament before doing anything else wreaks of trouble. How could any sane Somali give their weapon to those same people who came in riding on an Ethiopian tank? Even worse, it was the same warlords that terrorized them in the past that came riding on these Ethiopian tanks. A double whammy indeed. I say let everyone keep their weapons until the dust settles. If the TFG proves to be what many of us suspect, a puppet government, it will have been a good decision. If they prove us wrong, people will disarm for they have no reason to keep their weapons. Y - I know you didn't bring in the Rwanda comparison per se but you implied the definite possiblity of mini Rwanda if Clan X is disarmed but not Clan Y etc. The TFG MUST start with disarmament. How can it possibly do anything but start to improve security(of which disarmament is the key component) if it is to get anything else done? You have me utterly puzzled by this statement. To my knowledge - the tragic circumstances of Somalia have not been due to Ethiopian tanks but rather Somali technicals. The less of those on the streets the better. I can understand distrust and that's why I would advice TFG to proceed slowly. Even if the TFG proves to be a puppet govt less arms in Mogadishu will benefit the ppl - then they will have to stab each other to death. A more hazardous undertaking than strafing ppl from the safety of your technical. And generally trouble makers will not disarm easily.

Originally posted by Mujaahid: Red Sea: Mr.the Point,you sound like a man who has done his homework,but can you show me,the government which you speak,it's all "Ifs".I would have agreed with your point,but which government is there that counters the success of Somaliland.Somaliland's capital is Hargeysa,if the TFG claims its capital to be Xamar,then gues what,the possibility of Xamar citizens accepting such piece of chunk to rule over them is not happenning,you can sugar coat it as much as you want guys,but it aint happening,people got taste of the goodness of the ICU,they want them back..now. It is still not a done deal but the momentum seems to be in that direction. C'est tout.

^Oh boy - is the ICU free from such folks?? Let's face it folks. There will be 'unsavoury' folks on the Somali political scene for at least another generation. The key tests are: the process by which those in charge are chosen and what kind of governance they produce. The process for the TFG was out in the open though far from ideal and now that they seem to be 'in charge' - let's see what they do. That is all that I'm saying.

Originally posted by Fanisha: quote:Originally posted by ThePoint: ^Sweetie - he's hardly going to list each member and their clan. Why don't u PM him your clan and he can sort this thing out for you? And then you can let us know the results. Waa run - hadal haan ma buuxshee - so this can be resolved quite quickly and easily if you do the above. ^^isqoroow bilaa qalin ayaa adi kula hadley mise attantion ayaad meelkale ka waydey.orodoo doorknob nimadaada meel kale la doono. Insults are the last refuge of the ..... If you want to banter with GD - have the courage to admit it. Otherwise do as I suggested if you have a burning desire to get an answer to your question. BTW - welcome to public forums where individuals adress each other as and when they want and where 'attantion' is inversely related to the quality of your posts.

^Good plan Baashi - although I wouldn't say 'embrace' - I would say give them a chance. Be as 'neutral' as you can be for now and let's see what happens. Too many are too bitter and disappointed to embrace their conquerors. Nor is it quite fair to ask ppl to embrace a group that is unproven and has so many shady folks in it. Also, I wouldn't give amnesty to all the ICU leadership. Mr. Aweys has gotta to go - he started fire in Puntland, then Gedo then Baidoa. Three strikes and you're out. The Shariif I like even though he is prone to hyperbole and intemperate remarks. He strikes me as the epitome of a macaqool man. It is in the interest of the TFG not to conduct a scorched earthy policy and ensure that opponents are invited into the process if not coopted.

^What you got against the hyper free market? The Economist is definitely my favourite magazine. But their Somalia coverage is ill informed and prone to generalization as is demonstrated in places by this article.

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar: Muqdisho is a magaalo Carbeed, not that Soomaalis are Carab. So, what is funny? It is founded by Carabs, Banaadiris. Its rich historical architecture attests to that [if you want visual history, go see what remains of Xamarweyne, Xamarjajab, Shangaani, Cabdicasiis and Shibis [bilaajo Carab, Village of Carabs as Talyaaniga called them], the old parts of Xamar. It is only later surpassed by few villas duplicated from Talyaaniga here and there. It is a Carab metropolis for the nation ay u tahay magaalomadax is a member of Jaamacadda Carabta. That really is neither here or there MMA. It's like referring to Istanbul as a Greek city or a Byzantine city. The reality is - it is a Turkish city for all intents and purposes. As is Mogadishu a Somali city.

^Sweetie - he's hardly going to list each member and their clan. Why don't u PM him your clan and he can sort this thing out for you? And then you can let us know the results. Waa run - hadal haan ma buuxshee - so this can be resolved quite quickly and easily if you do the above.

^Ur rite - the majority were saying Mog is impregenable and that rivers of blood will start to run. I certainly was of that persuasion. So props to you for calling it rite. However, disarmament is more complex given the current state of flux in the country. As such - TFG should proceed very carefully.

^Chill out guyz. A functioning, recognized government in Mogadishu extending to the disputed eastern parts of Somaliland makes Somaliland's position as an independant entity much harder. It puts a definite political and economic squeeze on it. Is that something that Somaliland independance supporters deny?

^Have you ever known the Arabs to be generous to us? They don't help out their own brethren in Palestine - foreget about a bunch of cabeeds in Somalia. Of all the Arab countries the UAE has treated Somalis in the most exemplary way. Besides - there is talk of Somalia having oil - so kir iyo ban to the Arabs and their oil money

^^Hehe Adeer. Mogadishu is the most lawless part of the country - as such a special emphasis on it is warranted. As to clan X or clan Y - I don't see the broader clan wars coming and as to Yey pulling a Rwanda on Mog 'residents' - highly unlikely and undermines his whole position as head of the republic. Aditionally - this disarmament campaign is national or about to be if memory serves me rite. El Jefe - u must stop seeing Somali politics as an adverserial, zero-sum game only. Hardly the way to move things forward in a fractured and complicated society such as Somalia.

^Ok - you've convinced me. I wasn't too sure either way before. I think the key words are 'in this environment'. No need for further fighting and intimidation at this stage.

^It's not so funny since so many Somalis put out the falsehood that Somalis are Arabs. If only those people would stop saying that - these poor Arabs would not be so confused.