Originally posted by Kashafa: Point-ka, Yes, my passion for justice and disgust at dhabo-dhilif cheerleading for my country's destruction is indeed running high. That should be the default position of anybody with an ounce of Islamnimo or basic humanity. I meant partisan passion but if you like your reference go ahead. As to 'ounce of Islamnimo' - please. This self-righteous tone is getting tiring. Your political position = 100% islamnio and those on the other side = 0%. This type of blanket statement is a big part of what's wrong in the Politics section. There's politics and then there's what we're witnessing on SOL past few days, which if I'm not mistaken, you've been position-less on. The worst fighting in Mogadisho in 15 years, yet you remain silent ? And then whistle a red card at North and others because they've overstepped the boundaries of pleasent discussion , or something to that effect ? I'm not position-less - I just haven't stated my position on the current events of late. But apparently not broadcasting one's position with cheap insults and blanket condemnation is something you can't seem to understand? If you want my position simply ask. I simply queried North on why he 'joined' the insult crowd - it's as simple as that. And is there some prohibition on my 'red-carding' anyone I wish to? And how do insults add to one's case - it just makes you look like another half-baked loony. I can understand if you don't wanna mix it up in the politics section, cuz it can get ugly. But stepping in to yell foul at something petty while purposely(in my view) ignoring the horrific events on the ground as well as the faults of the TFG camp, well, that just speaks for itself. And it doesn't spell neutrality or moderation. I refrain from the Politics section generally unless there are intelligent discussions taking place. I have no desire to wallow in filth by exchanging insults and other crap with the 'regulars'. 'Purposely... ignoring' - this is just another sign of your desire for the "with us or against us" mentality. I'm not fond of such thinking - it's intellectually lazy at best. As to neutrality - please provide evidence where I claimed neutrality. I'm not neutral - but I am flexible. Above all - I'm for peace. And I'm prepared to give this TFG a chance despite my reservations about their actions, ethics, personalities etc. But instead of asking me for my position - you assume my supposed 'neutrality' and then rush to categorize me as 'hypocritical' etc. No, I don't consider you an enemy. That said, I'm not the only one to have noticed your convenient 'neutrality' which is what I was highlighting in the my earlier post. See above. Note - don't make assumptions before gathering evidence! What I find even more odd - is this jumping to conclusion. By your estimate - I've chastised 2 people Paragon and Northerner(Nur's case was a request to keep politics out of Islam). So out of the many ICU supporters - I've 'red-carded' 2 and that breaks my neutrality(supposing I was neutral). If that isn't jumping the gun - I don't know what is. Take a stand, articulate it, provide your reasoning, even inject a lil heat in it, but it all starts with taking a clear stand. I have taken a stand. See my earlier posts - but it seems since you haven't seen my 'stand' of late - you jump to conclusions. And regardless of whether I take a stand or not - a minor call for civility somehow pisses you off yet you claim the 'islamnimo' mantle to you and your own. What is that about?

Originally posted by Kashafa: Hol' up, Hol' up. They're calling this one fake ? There is no shortage of Cabdullahi Amxaar audio recordings on the net that display how incredibly dense, clannist, and vulgar this man can be. Are they all fake ? Guys, I know this is topic is touching meel bugta , but try and be reasonable. Members of Yey's own family will tell you what kinda criminal clannist man he is. The dude has been killing and assasinating for 40 years. Being a power-hungry, Xabash-lover is his job description. For argument's sake, let's say the tape is fake. Does that turn him into a saint ? Wipe his slate clean ? Start calling him Xaaji Cabdullahi ? LOL....I appreciate your gallant defense of his 'sharaf'(especially Sakhar, Adeer sii fiican baa ugu dathaashay, walee gacal baa tahay ), but it's like saying Hitler is a good man because Mein Kampf was forged by his enemies. Try and be a liiitle bit logical and you'll be ten times more effective helping the cause Is this tape fake is the key question? If it is - then those who would propagate anything such as this are worse that the 'purported' comments. Simple as that. If you have other tapes 'proving' his clannism - by all means post them. But Mr Olol's behaviour on SOL speaks for itself.

Originally posted by Kashafa: How to be a neutral observer on SOL: 1- Ignore all the TFG hacks blatantly clannist rhetoric, ignore their glee and gloating in the face of human suffering, ignore their wholesale embrace of the Xabashi invaders, no comments on Adeer Yey whatsoever, no comments on Adeer Zenawi whatsoever. 2- "Whopsy Daisy, here's a post by a 'secessionist' who's been very vocal against the Tikrey/TFG alliance. Great oppurtunity to show my neutral and moderate colours" 3- Proceed to type: clickity-clack, clickity-clack. Come on, Point. You're better than that, man. Where was your wonderfully moderate voice a) during the horrific events of the past week b) when the dhabo-dhilifs(note down for af-xumo count) took on a Nazi-esque taste for genocide and civillian death, both on the ground and here on SOL. You don't need somebody to tell you that there are far more pressing matters to be commented on than pleasantries and courteous-talk. You don't need somebody to tell you that it looks very hypocritcal to constantly criticise one side(Northerner, Paragon, Nur) and turn a blind eye to the side that is cheerleading destruction while Somalia burns under Etho fire. I say it's about time we retired the neutrality clause. The passion is running high with you too eh? Paragon - that criticism was explained to you - read that post and rebut if there is anything to rebut there Nur - that wise man posted clearly political stuff on the Islam section - I didn't pursue him much because I respect him - but please! let's keep talk about Meles and ICU to where it belongs - Politics Northerner - one of the more restrained members in Politics - succumbed to the insult hysteria going on of late - it would be similar to Xiin going all 'insulty' - I would politely inquire as to why - at least to keep up what little intelligent debate there is here. As to the rest - am I really going to chastise Sakhar and the Captain on a daily basis as you seem to believe I need to - no. Just like I don't bother with AU and the like. As to commenting on the 'pressing' political situation - there has been little intelligent discussion - just propaganda and insults. And your missives have hardly made any differences. Adeer, is-dajee, relax, chill - debate your points calmly. But if you're intent on labelling me as an 'enemy' then go right ahead.

^Northerner - are you officially part of the insult hurling 'saaqids' - quite the flurry of af-xumo from you this past week?

New York Times By JANE PERLEZ Published: April 2, 2007 CLITHEROE, England — On a chilly night this winter, this pristine town in some of Britain’s most untouched countryside voted to allow a former Christian church to become a mosque. The narrow vote by the municipal authorities marked the end of a bitter struggle by the tiny Muslim population to establish a place of worship, one that will put a mosque in an imposing stone Methodist church that had been used as a factory since its congregation dwindled away 40 years ago. The battle underscored Britain’s unease with its Muslim minority, and particularly the infiltration of terrorist cells among the faithful, whose devotion has challenged an increasingly secular Britain’s sense of itself. Britain may continue to regard itself as a Christian nation. But practicing Muslims are likely to outnumber church-attending Christians in several decades, according to a recent survey by Christian Research, a group that specializes in documenting the status of Christianity in Britain. More conspicuous than ever in both the halls of power and in working-class neighborhoods, Britain’s 1.6 million Muslims, about 2.7 percent of the population, are at once alienated and increasingly assertive. In Clitheroe, the tussle involved a passionate young professional of Pakistani descent coming up against the raw nerves of tradition-bound local residents. “We’ve been trying to get a place of worship for 30 years,” said Sheraz Arshad, 31, the Muslim leader here, his voice rattling around the empty old Mount Zion Methodist Church that will house his mosque. “It’s fitting it is a church: it is visually symbolic, the coming together of religions.” With a population of 14,500, a Norman castle and an Anglican church established in 1122, Clitheroe is tucked away in Lancashire County in the north. People here liked to think they represented a last barrier to the mosques that had become features in surrounding industrial towns. But Clitheroe had not bargained on the determination of Mr. Arshad, a project manager at British Aerospace. He is the British-born son of Mohamed Arshad, who came to Clitheroe from Rawalpindi in 1965 to work at the cement works on the town’s outskirts. When his father died in 2000, leaving his efforts to establish a mosque for the approximately 300 Muslims unfulfilled, Mr. Arshad took up the challenge. “I thought, why should I be treated any less well?” Mr. Arshad said. “One quarter of my salary goes in tax, too. I was driven to do the mosque.” In all, Mr. Arshad and his father made eight applications for a mosque, and even proposed buying a modest terrace house on the edge of town to be used for worship. Mr. Arshad said he tried to buy land from the council but was rebuffed. Often there was booing at council meetings, and, he said, cries of “Go home, Paki!” The authorities’ official reasoning for the rejections was generally that a mosque would attract outsiders — a veiled reference to Muslims — to Clitheroe. Letters to the local newspaper, The Clitheroe Advertiser and Times, warned that what had happened in Blackburn and Preston, two bigger nearby industrial towns with substantial Muslim populations, would happen to Clitheroe. Mr. Arshad decided to get organized and demonstrate that he was a moderate Muslim who could take part in all the town’s affairs. He formed an interfaith scout group — Beaver Scouts — that honored many religious occasions, including the Taoist and Jewish new years. He established the Medina Islamic Education Center as an interfaith group for adults, and persuaded the local council to allow the group to lead a key committee. He organized a series of lectures on global conflict that attracted important academics. On Dec. 21, the night of the vote on the mosque, the council chambers overflowed with 150 people. The police were poised outside. The vote was 7 to 5 for the mosque; there was no violence. “I went in resigned to the fact we would lose,” Mr. Arshad said. “In the end, it was very humbling.” The church’s demarcation as a place of worship in the town’s planning records helped carry the day, said Geoffrey Jackson, chief executive of Trinity Partnership, a social welfare agency, and a Methodist who backed Mr. Arshad. So did Mr. Arshad’s demeanor. “He’s a top lad, with a Lancashire accent, born and bred here, and educated at Clitheroe Grammar,” Mr. Jackson said. Page 2

^Adeer - as Somalis we're blessed with more than our fair share of crazies especially on politics. There is no reason to be had. I hope you learned your lesson

^ Flex, Flex

Originally posted by Che-Guevara: ^^^Good luck then dear. Bal waxaad kaheshid wax hanagasiin. Poor Che - why did you bother in the first place? Anyone could've told you the outcome.

What intelligent discourse! it warms my heart.

From the Washington Post: A second key factor helping the virus spread through southern Africa is low rates of circumcision. Before European colonialists arrived, most tribes in the region removed the foreskins of teenage boys during manhood rituals. Those rites, which were discouraged by missionaries and other Westerners who regarded them as primitive, have gradually declined as the region rapidly modernized. .... These factors, researchers say, explain how North Africa, where Muslim societies require circumcision and strongly discourage sex outside monogamous and polygamous marriages, has largely avoided AIDS. ... Source

^I believe bananas don't love monkeys I'm going in circles today - better sign off

^Just have a collection jar next to your food and list a minimum 'donation'. When you've gained a reputation as the office canteen - it's hard to break it.

Why starlet and not star? Starlet in NA means a young and upcoming Hollywood actress. But somehow you Brits always seem to twist words around.

^Well - you really did create a rather suspenseful setup. Have you thought of Hollywood? - dressing up less than suspenseful situations is definitely an art

Originally posted by Valenteenah: I'm so frigging mad. I can accept anything but the theft of my bananas...damn those thieving ba$tards! :mad: :mad: To separate a Somali from his/her banana is an absolute cardinal sin

Sheik Nur - I believe you have made a mistake by posting this article in the Islam section. It clearly belongs in the Politics section. And we hardly need the expansion of politics into other places least of all in the Islam section.

Originally posted by Faarax-Brown: quote:In Mr. Bailey's article - he uses the terms 'Somalian' and 'Somalian tribes' and 'salafism' and much other(non-political in nature) that demonstrates a weak understanding of Somalia. I have a lot of doubt as to his genuine grasp of what is happening in the country. But if you're eager to grasp on to that rather feeble grasp - well you go for it Aggah!,Adeer,You are dismissing the whole Point because of terminologies? :eek: I dont mean to disrespect such a smart Nomad as you,but,I have no choice but to refer to your statement as Hogwash. Adeer - you praised the man's grasp on the situation in Somalia. Part of that supposedly admirable grasp involves using the appropriate terminology. This indicates a certain level of familiarity and expertise on the subject. Now if you take that rather obviously flawed grasp of terminologies and then extrapolate it to the more complex political situation - well I wonder what the result would be. But I'm guessing his rather basic mistakes don't matter - he agrees with you and thus you flog his product regardless.

Originally posted by Kashafa: Point-ka, My point was intentionally simple: I was showing how that in the face of overwhelming local, national, and international(Liam is just but one, I can quote you many organisations, journalists, and analysts who are making the same exact case) consensus about the nature, agenda, and and unsurpassed achievements of the ICU, there will ALWAYS be some who driven primarily by a naked tribal agenda or in support of One Strong Man(Yey, Hiraale, Gheedi etc), will seek to a)distort, b)fabricate c)discredit and d) deny the record and historical accomplishments of the Islamic Courts. I don't mind legitimate criticism and debate, and Allah(SWT) knows there are many areas one can target, but what I've been seeing time and again since Decemeber is people throwing some pathetic "get a reaction" talking points and hope for the best from the back-up chorus line. Talk about intellectual dishonesty. Take the fool who called the ICU, "murtadiin". LOL. Hol' up, that needs another LOL. Dude prolly doesn't even know what the word means. He might've thought it was a good 'demonising' phrase. Xooooooox. "Dey is da bad guys, dey is da "murtadiin" Its istupidh ish like that turns the politics section into a cesspool(your own observation). I hope a few more posts will illustrate the madness thats been taken by some as 'normal'. Fair enough. Though I'm not sure about 'overwhelming consensus' nor as you know does an 'overwhelming consensus' necessarily equal correct. I will say one other thing in the interests of fairness - the distortions, fabrications and discrediting have not only been one way. Though, personally, what I find worse than that is the insults thrown willy-nilly and to a much greater proportion by the ICU supporters.

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: CG , There are weak Muslims. There are ghulats (extremists). But there are also moderates. A wine-drinking Muslim is a weak Muslim, and not a moderate. Ideally, we should all strive to be in moderate category. Taliban, seems to think weak Muslims are moderates. Adeer - I think you have strayed off the path on this one. By definition - this umma is to take the middle road - so I object to the use of the term 'moderate' - as if this religion is inherently extreme and we must moderate it(ie. a Muslim = psycho and 'moderate' Muslim = someone we can get along with). By definition - we're supposed to be moderate - Muslims have been specifically warned against extremism. Also this label reeks of what a Muslim is supposed to 'conform' to as dictated by non-Muslims especially those in the West. I really dislike this term. As to the other end of the spectrum - a wine-drinker is a non-practising Muslim. Strictly speaking - he is out of the fold of Islam given the severity of this sin but if we take 'Muslim' as implying an amorphous general identity - then this person is non-practising. Thus, from my perspective one can be: (Practicing) Muslim Extremist Muslim Non-practicing Muslim

Originally posted by Faarax-Brown: quote:Originally posted by ThePoint: But some white guy writing in support of your case doesn't necessarily prove your case but then again, you're a smart guy - you knew that already. I dont get it either,What "some white guy" grasped and understood easily,a somali is unable to.. A classic case of "looking at the world through rose-colored glasses" Yeah?? edit: Horn,perhaps,Kismayo is insignificant? :confused: In Mr. Bailey's article - he uses the terms 'Somalian' and 'Somalian tribes' and 'salafism' and much other(non-political in nature) that demonstrates a weak understanding of Somalia. I have a lot of doubt as to his genuine grasp of what is happening in the country. But if you're eager to grasp on to that rather feeble grasp - well you go for it! And yes - Kismayo is an insignificant little tuulo !

^I don't get it. Maybe it's supposed to be simple humour. But some white guy writing in support of your case doesn't necessarily prove your case but then again, you're a smart guy - you knew that already.

Originally posted by Paragon: ^^Lol, Kashafa. ThePoint and I had exchanged posts when the ICU was still ruling Mogadishu. I understood then that ThePoint is afraid of taking a clear position lest fortunes change hands. I think we would see him and others in this forum stating their position when a clear victor is produced. Theirs is called opportunism. We must note them down as that. It's alright - I never did expect that you could grasp my position. Macaleesh.

Originally posted by Kashafa: quote:Originally posted by ThePoint: I don't see posts like this adding to the 'quality' of the Politics section yaa Paragon. I thought you initimated that you had thoughts you wished to share rather than this delightful paragon of debate. There's a small problem, Point. And this what I mean that people should have a clear stand or risk being lumped together with those they associate with. By you ignoring the venom drivel of Azmaya, that Xiin, Faarax, and Paragon have commented on, and choosing to question Paragon's post, you're implicitly saying you agree with her. You may not intend to, but thats how it will be read. If the integrity of the Politics section is to be maintained, nomads must take a clear stand and call out those who are prejudiced or hateful(for whatever reasons). How odd. I guess I'll start at the beginning. There's a small problem, Point. And this what I mean that people should have a clear stand or risk being lumped together with those they associate with. I have not made a stand on Azmaya's post - if you would like to know my stand simply ask. I don't know how you made the leap from my non-comment to being 'lumped together'. Is that a usual conclusion - if you don't comment negatively on something you automatically support it? This is not logic. I also don't understand your use of the word 'associate' - this is a public forum for, ideally, intelligent debate and discussion. Everyone associates with one another by virtue of posting here. By you ignoring the venom drivel of Azmaya, that Xiin, Faarax, and Paragon have commented on, and choosing to question Paragon's post, you're implicitly saying you agree with her. You may not intend to, but thats how it will be read. As a general rule - I don't bother trying to call out hateful, sweeping posts in the Politics section. If I were to - I would be spending a lot of my time on that. That job rightfully belongs to a vigilant and public-spirited moderator who's interested in the integrity of this section. In this particular post I did the next best thing - I called out someone who I thought was seemingly reasonable and who had heralded his return to the Politics section. The point here is that one hateful post begets another and this cycle undermines any possibility of intelligent debate in this section. But you can only call out those who you think are reasonable not the cyber lunatics. Again - I don't engage in this type of activity much but I thought in this case there were extenuating circumstances. You will slso note that I didn't call out Xiin for his post - because his post didn't respond to the original post in the same venomous tone. There is a classy guy - registering his disapproval but with restraint. As to my 'implicity agreeing with her' and 'that's how it will be read' - I'm simply amazed at this statement. Anyone who jumps to this conclusion is at best a fool and at worst a xaasid willing to label anyone an 'enemy' at the drop of a hat. If the integrity of the Politics section is to be maintained, nomads must take a clear stand and call out those who are prejudiced or hateful(for whatever reasons). If the 'integrity' of the Politics section is to be maintained - about the worst thing anyone can do is respond to hateful posts with hateful posts. That is worse than the original hateful post. If you want my thoughts on how to establish integrity in this section(imo there is little here) - then this would be it: 1- Have a vigilant moderator who pursues actively those people who post hateful, venomous, personal commentary 2- Do not respond to hateful commentary whatsoever - simply let the moderator take care of it 3- Control your own posts and limit them to intelligent debate and try to minimize the emotion, hyperbole, sarcasm etc - we could do with a whole lot of dispassionate debate in this section.

Originally posted by Paragon: The world's end is neigh when the inhabitants of Planet of Apes speak of preserving civilization. It is like humanized barbarity advocating for the preservation of civilization 'cos it serves them best. I don't see posts like this adding to the 'quality' of the Politics section yaa Paragon. I thought you initimated that you had thoughts you wished to share rather than this delightful paragon of debate.

^Well argued overall Xiin. Though I've never understood the zero sum game vis-a-vis Ethiopia. Once upon a time the French felt the same about the Germans and now the two are the main engine of the EU. I wonder if that was acheived on both sides by a Xiin-like attitude Originally posted by xiinfaniin: As for what to do with anarchist amongst us whom the absence of governance benefited them and want the country to stay lawless, even after Ethiopia leaves, I think icu’s rise to power and how it managed to subdue such folks is a great example to follow. People want peace and stability. The days when moor-yaani-sm was fashionable are over. Thusly I don’t think dealing with thugs and isbaaro-profeeters is an insurmountable challenge, or warrants Ethiopian intervention. Adeer - I think you're minimizing this particular issue. All it takes is one guy to pick up an Ak-47 and randomly fire on a daily basis to ensure continued insecurity. And the reflexive recourse is to resort to violence if one person or a group is unhappy. What does one do then? After securing complete Ethiopian withdrawal, the great bargain, as you put it, is not difficult to envision. Real reconciliation conference mainly owned by Somalis and held inside the country should attempt to achieve two things. 1- The current form and the composition of tfg must be bended to reflect political organizations/allegiance--- religious, tribal or otherwise. If it was on the interest of Somalia’s peace and stability that allowed full time warlords and known murderers to participate—nay lead—our political bodies, it’s only fair to demand unconditional and equal participation for our Islamist leaders. Yes, you hear me right. I want the Aways’s and Turk’s of Somalia get a respectable seat in our national gatherings. Why not? I think your latter point is fairly reasonable. But if Somalia is to get help from the rest of the world(financially, diplomatically etc) that we sorely need - you have to play ball. The US(and by extension the rest of the world) will not support the inclusion of an Aweys in a federal government. Perhaps the Shariif can fill in for him . I don't know - but certain players cannot, in all reality, play a real role in the federal government. I will say this: when the ICU was in the stronger position - Aweys did not feel the need to negotiate and then launched his attack on Baidoa. I'm not sure that he should be rewarded with a govt post - can't see him doing the same thing if the situation was reversed . But, then again, scorched earth policy is unwise in the longer term. Better to embrace your enemy in an agreed upon framework. 2- Complete reversal of civil war gains--- properties, farms, and towns must be returned to their rightful owners. At minimum, the process to exact that overdue justice need be agreed. Ahh - this strikes me more as wishful thinking adeer. What a hairy knot to untangle. It is almost hopeless and will take many years. At this point - they can only pay lip service. And it is not surprising that the vast majority of the violence in Somalia keeps occurring in and around Mog where the quantities of looted riches is the greatest. The decades of violence and the jockeying for and desire to legitimize loot is not unlinked. Which brings me back to my first point. How do you deal with those whose vested(and I mean well vested) interests is in opposing any authority that will challenge them?