^Good points Viking. Personally, I wouldn't favour a ban on capital punishement in the cases on cold-blooded murder. But I think a better sense of Hudood laws would be a good starting for more debate. My understanding of it is definitely limited.

^Sad - but shouldn't the Asians have consulted with the populace and ahem, greased the wheels of the laaders to ensure a smooth run of affairs.

^As always - a middle way is best. And at the end the intention will bear out the reason you wore it - so let the good Lord judge.

^Can we get a quick english summary of her acheivements?

Well - little clarity except that there is high tension and possiblity of war. But the rainy season is coming. Trouble makers hopefully will get bogged down.

^Adeer - are you ok? You can have a bank account and simply donate the interest to charity. You need not consume the interest. And someone enlighten me on how paying taxes is somehow 'haraam'?? PS - Khayr = TR eh? You're gonna get a beatdown I tell ya

Originally posted by General Duke: The SNM crimes are undeplayed while the crimes of their enemies are highlighted till kingdom come. Lets be honest or lets stop the nonsence.. You have a point here - one that doesn't seem to get much play with those committed to Somaliland. Clearly, though, the 2 crimes are not of remotely the same magnitude. But it would be nice every once in a while to get the acknowledgment of mistakes in the midst of the celebrations.

^Hmmm - interesting. He certainly does fill a void by talking to those Muslims living in the west. And of course to be a Muslim necessitates being a contributing member of society(nieghbourliness/charity etc). Sometimes I wonder why some Muslims are defensive about this obvious point they go to great lengths to 'dispell' it. Yeah - I definitely agree. Muslims in the West should not cater to Muslims back home in terms of how they live their lives in the west. But I disagree with the ending of the quest for integration. I think that depends on each country and culture. In France - I would say that Muslims are still integrating(or trying to) in a rather hostile environment whereas in the States and Canada - I think that is much less the case. And I don't think Muslims lack the necessary iniative or are not already contributing - it's less to do with that - than a global fight between the States and some Muslim elements which is portrayed in the media as good vs evil. When the picture becomes that simplistic - even a model community will have every seemingly tiny fault scrutinized, criticized and hyped. Anyone who thinks practising Muslims cannot live peacefully in the West is simply retarded. I don't know why one would bother to refute such individuals. However, I think that practising Muslims must give serious thought to leaving the West for Muslim lands eventually. Islam is a way of life not an optional Sunday morning sing-along. Thus - there is an inherent tension between living as a practising Muslim and the general mode of life in the west. When a simple task as going downtown to do some shopping entails that you pre-plan where and when you will pray, it's not hard to appreciate a place where everyone knows your duties to God and a public place of prayer is at every corner. One other note - in a way - anyone who is not of the 'original' settlers in the immigrant countries of US/Canada/Oz etc will always be seen as 'foreign' at some level. If your name is Hassan Mohamud - you will likely be asked when did you come to... regardless of your status as a 3rd generation born and bred. Again - it is nicer to go to a place where no one remarks on your name and they recognize you as ina hebel hebel and can inform you of your own family history. It's an interesting dichotomy - in the west your(original) name defines you as a foreigner whereas back home your name gives you automatic standing and a clear place in society. It thus becomes clear where 'home' really is though the country is in shambles.

^As if Somalis in Oz need more scrutiny from police. Why doesn't this guy just shut up??

Why did this interesting thread peter out? Hayam - tell us your thoughts on TR and this lecture since you are probably the most familiar with it. What did you agree or disagree with? Viking - good to see you again.

^Sxb - if you're gonna dismiss and disparage someone else's stance - have the courage to either pick apart their points and present why yours are better or keep quiet. No need for shallow restatemens of your support for the ICU. And you still obviously haven't grasped the complexity. Part of this complexity is this: ICU had Dahir Aweys and others who are/were warlords if not a little less There are men in the ICU who have 'Somali blood on their hands' There is no process of governance that was in any way transparent so that Somalis can partake with regard to the ICU There was no input from most Somalis on how the ICU should govern and what its mandate was Not such a black and white choice now eh adeero? -------------------- The TFG is far from perfect. It has undue Ethiopian influence. However, at this point all Somalia needs is a semblance of solid authority, the repair of some institutions and then preparation for elections so average Somalis can exercise their choice. And this TFG was the only entity of the two that engaged in a broad attempt to include all Somalis and negotiate among them to help determine a compromise outcome. Do you have anything more intelligent to say? Say it - but don't bother with the repetition of simplistic talking points.

Originally posted by nabadshe: quote:This isn't the first time this has happened. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the U.S. tried to deport a native of Puntland to Bosaso and the authorities refused to allow them in. I'll suggest that you read the news article carefully. those believed to be of puntland decent were allowed inn, while those of non puntland decent somalis were prohibited entry. How did this morph into Puntland? I thought this was about the positive development re Somaliland and south. Everything is being turned into clan.

^He's a good guy though he tries a bit too hard to cater the townsfolk. Sad that it took this much to take over what had become an abandoned factory.

^I presume you mean me? Why is the TFG not announcing the 'defeat' if it is so? Very little they seem to be saying regarding the results of the battles.

^True or not - the capital is quiet. Someone must be observing a ceasefire no?

^If you have disagreements with what I wrote - then point them out and rebut them. But if you like the sound of your own posts - then keep repeating the above. PS - Again, the nuance and complexity is there - you just can't seem to grasp it. Hint - It's less about supporting the TFG and more about supporting the process

^Talking about those fleeing from Mog. Didn't know there were 2 separate groups.

^When you can't grasp nuance and complexity - why bother inserting yourself in intelligent debate?

^There may be a security risk - something Xiin and others think is impossible strangely. But the security threat comes from their weapons and the use thereof. If you can ensure that is taken care of - why deport?

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: The display of the captured explosives does not seem convincing, and has probably bees staged. You however bought it. Really? A security risk from some elements of those fleeing the fighting is not implausible. Unless you have evidence contradicting this - your statement is pure whimsy.

^No Puntland did not do the right thing. They should've disarmed them and then let them be. If the authorities there got rid of the military threat - there is little reason to pursue these people.

Originally posted by Kashafa: This isn't debate class. Human beings are being slaughtered on the ground. A 'minor call for civility' at this particular time, especially if it's one-sided, can make people misunderstand you, justifiably so. Let's be frank. There is no civility, there was no civility, in the Politics section. Ever. Why raise the banner of respectability when the heat is on the TFG camp ? Actually - it is a debate forum not class. And this is where we, Somalis, educated, hopefully intelligent discuss rationally and politely the future of our country. Let's face it - we all live comfortably in the West - we can hardly claim to feel 'their pain' etc. If people misunderstand - they should seek clarification not jump to quick conclusions. There is little civility in the Politics section - but there are a number of individuals in it who are civil - Baashi, Xiin, Ngonge etc. Northerner usually is too - hency my query. I wondered why his posts deteriorated which led to a further deteterioration of the section. Simple as that. No witchhunt against ICU folks, no breaking of my supposed 'neutrality' etc. My modus operandi is simple: Respect gets respect. Do not expect me to seriously entertain and politely refute, point-by-point, flaming clannists, who have nothing to contribute except caytin and qosol. They get nothing from me except ridicule. It's odd - you are so contemptous of the 'flaming clannists' and their posts yet you continually engage with them and reply to their posts in a like(rude) manner. Are you sure you're on the moral highground with those tactics? I'll reserve my brain cells for people like you who although I may disagree with(or simply not know where they stand ), at least can provide a structured responsed without bleating: Clan Courts or Secessionist or Looted Properties at any post they are incapable of responing to. If you re-read the posts of most ICU supporters - you will find like responses. Principally - 'adeero', 'Yey, Yey, Yey', 'Puntland', 'dhabo-dhilif', 'gaalo-rac', 'traitors', 'stooges' etc. I don't believe either set of responses has any intelligence. To be honest, I still don't know where you stand. I read all of of your recent posts and could discern nothing about your views on the nature of this conflict. You frequently ask questions(one-sided, in my view) and don't provide clear-enough responses. See below for my stand but I provided some samples below(you may have to scroll for the full positions) Sample 1 Sample 2 Flexibility is a choice euphemism for a unprincipled stand. I don't think it's too difficult, sxb. Here try these straightforward questions out. LOL about the flexibility remark. How naive. In the business of governance and politics - one is ultimately trying to move the country forward. How to do that is something well-meaning people can differ on. If you are flexible - you will listen to and accept the idea of those who you disagree with generally if their idea is more sound than yours. If, however, you are inflexible - you will never accept an idea/stand that is better than yours simply because you oppose personalities. And thus your inflexibility has led to the country losing out possibly. We're not talking about the existence of God or the persimibility of drinking alcohol here. At base - flexibility and good faith dealing - is about where to put the traffic lights in the town, how to allocate money, when to hold elections. If you're inflexible on these everyday political matters - you are arrogant and self-righteous. And whatever your views - you will not add any benefit to the good governance of the country or a discussion therein. 1- Do you support Abdullahi Yusuf, the man, the clannist, the beholden-to-Etho-interests lackey ? No - I can't say I personally support A/Y. He strikes me as too much the dictatorial type. I do support the process that led to his election. He is not my ideal pick but I can live with it. Just as I don't support Harper or Bush personally but I support the process and its outcome. Additionally - does A/Y have some monopoly on clannism that you felt necessary to mention it? 2- Do you support the invasion/invitation(depending on how you see it) of the Ethiopian troops ? On balance - I do. There were 2 competing parties ICU and TFG and a political deadlock. Political deadlock is something Somalis have been familiar with for a decade plus and hasn't been beneficial. I had no desire to see that continue. The Ethiopians were a useful tool to break that political deadlock though a number of their actions are reprehensible. 3- Do you support the indiscriminate shelling and bombarding of Mogadisho(no ifs or buts) ? No - I don't. The TFG and the Ethiopians used excessive force in the last few days and unnecessarily so in my opinion. You will note that the shelling, suicide car bombs, and downing of cargo planes using by RPGs is something the other folks engaged in to. I wonder if you support those actions? 4- Do you support the active killing and targeting of all and any armed Ethiopian soldiers on Somali soil Absolutely not. Targetting and killing of Ethiopians leads to tit-for-tat retaliation and given the massive force the Ethiopians can bring to bear - not very intelligent. I've no desire to see Somalia become Iraq. Somalia has been a war zone for too long for me to support any actions that would prolong that and indeed make it much worse. 5- During the December war between the Islamic Courts and the Tikrey/TFG alliance, who did you support ? Why ? I passively supported the TFG. I support that a long, intensive, inclusive and sometimes competitive process produced this TFG. The process has its flaws and the characters most definitely do but that is something to be worked on. I was not in support of self-appointed men who appropriated 'islamnimo' solely to themselves. I think that is a divisive and unwise stance. Runtii, sxb. It ain't too hard. Brief, direct answers will do. Once you're able to clarify your stance, our discussion can move forward with clear parameters and no need of 2nd-guessing. Hope that was brief and direct enough for you. I don't know why you assumed it was 'too hard'. Certainly not for me. Perhaps it was hard for you to stop jumping to conclusions and simply ask politely for clarification.

Originally posted by Kashafa: That's a rough estimate, sxb. And I should've wrote a few hundred million dollars at max. It doesn't make a difference anyway. Whether 1 mil, 10 mil, or a 100 mil, that is a insignificant trifling amount to go to war for and face the Etho-American war machine. Which makes the 'looted properties' charge so laughable. Unlike the local dhabo-dhilif contingent who are using 'looted properties' as an easily transparent excuse for backing Adeer Yey and the Tikrey cousins , my family actually owns property in Mogadisho that was a)looted and b) stolen c) taken over by squatters who refused to leave. Do you see me jumping up and down with tribal frenzy, baying for the blood of 'those people' who stole my property ? The crickets are back to chirping again. Gobanimo, yaa Point-ka, is not a matter of birth. It's a matter of upbringing. I hope you can whisper that in their ears. 10,000 homes abandoned valued at $10,000 each is 100 million dollars. This is not a small amount. And those numbers are very very conservative. And it is laughable to maintain that this is a trifling amount of money to go to war over. When your inputs to wage the war are of such low cost(Ak-47s and RPGs) - it is a very good tradeoff. The looted properties is not a reason to back Yey or to begin 'baying for the blood' of those who stole it. What it is - is a plausible reason for the continued resistance of some groups to the authority of this TFG. They have substantial assets at play here. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Northerner: The Point I would like to be excused from my usually easy going persona in the politics section. I will show no respect to those advocating for the bombardment of fellow Muslims/Somalis. Do not expect fluffy words from me in these parts. It's not about just showing respect for others. It's about showing self-respect. But then why the hell should I care eh? True - I just won't give a damn from now on.

Originally posted by Kashafa: The Islamic Courts of Somalia were fighting for one thing and one thing only: to secure and keep for ever the looted properties whose maximum worth does not exceed a few million dollars, if that much. Set aside the motivations: 'A few million dollars' eh? Really? Why is it you're calling her 'doqon'tastic' again? :confused: