Interesting article though I'm not sure I would refer to 1977 as glory.

^Welcome Grant. Do you have any favourite stories or reminences about your time in Somalia? Please share them if you do.

^We may all very well agree to obey Allah - but not necessarily each other. How do you get to a framework that allows for personal political expression and adheres to Islam? That has to be worked out my friend.

Originally posted by Dhulqarnayn -alSumaale: It's interesting, how when Somalia was dubbed the ''great hope for Africa'' or ''Africa's paradise'' in the 60s and 70s Really - didn't know that. Would love to see the reference. Good for the Malayasians. They are truly the leading Muslim state of the world today.

^There are disagreements over how to interpret the Quran, how to implement it, the scope of Islam in public life etc. Your answer is too simplistic. And how do overcome that then Khalaf?

Originally posted by NGONGE: Decline? The Muslim world is on the rise today, people. Forty years ago every last corner of the Muslim world was occupied and it was not only the 'corrupt' leaders who were to blame, every Muslim had a hand in that shame. Today, most Muslim countries are free (save your conspiracy theories) and choose to do things they way they want. The fact that they’re backwards, primitive and self-loathing is their problem and nobody else. Time to switch off this tired old record of decline and what not. Things have really never been better for those countries. And they have never been worse for Muslims in the west. LOL Ngonge - you're good. The Muslim world is in and has been in decline both on an absolute basis and a relative basis for a long time. In the absolute sense, the Muslim was at the pinnacle of global civilization from the 700s to the 1700s. Now they have been overtaken and mightily superseded by western civilization on all fronts economic, military etc. On a relative basis - while yes Muslim countries are not colonized as before and have made progress - when compared to many other developing countries in Southeast Asia or South America - Muslim countries have seriously lagged. And if everyone is progessing at 8 times your rate - then you have a defacto relative decline in your position. Now if you accept that thesis - the question is what prescriptions do you offer?

Originally posted by Castro: quote: Conclusion The Ethiopian-T.F.G. offensive in Mogadishu has broken the stasis, but has not stabilized Somalia and the Horn of Africa. Divisions and tensions are surfacing and deepening within and between actors at all levels, making further conflict and fragmentation likely . The actors do not appear to have the political will to surmount their differences. International and regional paralysis is partly due to the support of the T.F.G. by external actors and partly to the fact that Somalia is lower on the agenda of the Western powers than other issues. By leaving Somalia to collapse, however, Western powers are inviting its instability to spread beyond its borders . Washington, in particular, has staked its wager on Addis Ababa, which might turn out to be a "bad choice of allies." With splits running from the intra-clan to the inter-state levels, the conjuncture of powers and interests enveloping Somalia is out of any single actor's or group of actors' control. The sense of crisis is not delusory. Report Drafted By: Dr. Michael A. Weinstein PINR I read this twice. I just don't believe that conclusions of this analysis are reflected by the reality on the ground or the past history of the country. Divisions and tensions were always there - I'm not sure they were below the surface per se. As to their deepening - perhaps. But Somalis have always been characterized by rampant political opportunism. Sworn enemies one day are allies and friends the next day. So I don't think the first paragraph has much serious substance except for the last sentence. A real desire to bridge political differences is yet to be apparent. And that is the key to preventing further serious conflict in Somalia - not the ever present existence of tensions and divisions. 'By leaving Somalia to collapse'? Really? Is it in collapse at present compared to say 1991, 1996 or 2005 or indeed any of the umpteen years since the civil war and pre-ICU(at least in southern Somalia)? Hardly. In fact - the emergence of the ICU and their subsequent overtaking by the TFG represent attempts to emerge from collapse however flawed they were(are). To say that Somalia is heading into collapse right now seems to really miss the point. Even if it is(and little evidence is provided to support this) - are we headed into a collapse that we haven't seen before? No - thus the call to arms from the west seems strange and foolish. As to the regional conflict - talk about flogging the same product over and over. The potential is there - but you need more than that to keep emphasizing that point. The potential is there for an Arab-Israeli conflict to breakout - but hardly any credible source is forecasting it ad nauseum. As to the last paragraph - that could've been written at any time since the start of the civil war. ie no one Somali group can dominate the others, they must come together. If non-resolution of that latter point denotes crisis - then we've been in it for many years. And now is hardly different. I think Somalia is at an inflection point. And it's an inflection point low down on the Y-axis. Whether the parties can solve their differences through negotiation and comprise and take the country to a better place. Or just a small step down to where we were in past years.

Originally posted by Baashi: Thepoint, I beg to differ. The TFG, given the Neocon and Ethiopian factor, may start exercizing its token authority over large swaths of the south...by sheer force. But fpr lasting peace to take a root, the core issues have to be resolved. Legitimacy is a precious thing for anyone who wishes to rule. TFG lacks that now. But why would it exercise authority over large swathes of the south by sheer force when it has authority now, however 'token' it is? Presumably all it has to do is not piss off the locals. And the way to do that politically is to live up to federalism. Hence my emphasis on that. I think the Islamists should be invited to the reconciliation meeting - everyone should be heard at least. I'm not a fan of folks who talk out of both sides of their mouth - on the one hand unremitting war, on the other hand we wish to participate. At the end of the day though - Somalia will be about powerful regions and a weak centre. Who can stop the Islamists from organizing themselves and enacting their agenda on a regional basis given popular support? No one. And they can show other Somalis what they really have to offer.

Originally posted by Ms Dhucdhuc & Dheylo: I strongly feel that we have no choice but to start some where in this process of empowering people. Otherwise the exploitive forces, where ever, and who ever they are , will never allow us to progress. I agree with everything you said except this. It's not the exploitative forces that don't all you to progress. It's you sitting there apathetically on your azz that doesn't allow you to progress. You need enough people doing positive thinking to take root before this entire entreprise can get off the ground floor.

^Baashi - If this government implements the 'federal' part of its title and gives significant powers to regions along with the necessary funds - I think Somalia is on the road to recovery. I don't see any government, however powerful and well-supported, able to sustain a strong central government in the style of Barre.

I think the decline is a reflection of the state of the broader Muslim society. In the vast majority of Muslim countries - people have little ability to influence their day-to-day lives as done through the political process in the west. Yet comparatively little is done about it in an organized manner that would appeal to these publics and galvanize them to take action. It's an odd sort of apathy - change is desired but the smarts and courage to sustain a campaign for change is missing. It's encapsulated by this piece in an article I read a while back: "We can't just go out and say the government is bad. Everyone agrees with that. We won that argument," said Khalil. "Now we have to start telling the people: 'Now what? What kind of alternative are we talking about?' " So far, that alternative has yet to emerge. The Brotherhood is hunkered down, hoping to weather this crackdown as it has done so often over three generations. The movements for change that seemed to grip every profession in Egypt are moribund. Kifaya is in shambles. In November, leading figures resigned, angry over a statement by Ishaq skeptical of the veil; Ishaq himself stepped down, amid whispers of corruption and dictatorial style. As episodes of unrest erupt -- a sit-in by parents at a school, a protest by drivers along the road to Ain Sukhna, strikes at sprawling industrial sites -- Ishaq and others wait on the sidelines, blunt in their self-criticism that most Egyptians are more worried about jobs, education and health care than slogans denouncing Mubarak. Missed opportunities, Khalil said glumly, as he nibbled on a salad at a faded downtown restaurant called Estoril. "The simple issue is that we have to make ourselves relevant to the issues, not the other way around," he said. The ever-optimistic Maadi was even blunter: "We don't have a vision." And across town, Ishaq sat in Kifaya's threadbare office, no longer leading a movement that he once, a little arrogantly, called his own. Pessimism is what the government wants, he insisted. He smiled. "The quiet has to precede the storm." But he turned glummer when asked if he would see democracy in Egypt in his lifetime. He shook his head. "No," he said, tentatively. Then he repeated the word, this time more conclusively. "No." Source

^Whoa. Ummm - he was a free-thinking human being who chose to massacre people because he was, umm, 'bullied' and he should be mourned by the public at large?

Originally posted by Mj. bada Cas: lol@ Awdal is pro Somali< what the heck does that mean? Hargeysa is pro Arab then.. You don't know what that means? Pro = For, in support of. Somali = an ethnic group living in the Horn of Africa. I would assume every city inhabited by Somalis is pro-Somali. But not necessarily pro-Somalia or pro-Somaliland.

^LOL - he'll send you a DNA sample.

^Guys ease up. Paragon likes to raise eyebrows and make noise. That's all.

^I love it - an immaculate conception is my favourite type of explanation. Odd - I thought the SYL and its remnants disappeared in '69 but I guess almost all of those folks emigrated well before that of course with a handful only managing to 'grab something here and there' and not successfully at that.

^Duke - is there a reason to celebrate the promotion of another warlord

^Certainly not from me. You'd better ask Paragon why he introduced Bosaaso into this though. I'd love to know.

^Odd how this somehow turned to Bosaaso. I thought your folks were to be found in Bosaaso too. Presumably - a few were on the road you speak of. As to fishing, yes - I've heard those folks are real rer baadiye but I'm sure some found their way to Mogadishu in some fashion and established ties to our dearly departed leader.

^A Latin American strongman taking over the whole economy. Hmmm. Well better than an African one.

^Your abysmally faulty logic has led to my insolence. It's like me trying to tell you the TFG is full of people of character - it would be laughable if one didn't actually believe it . My arguments, less the insolence, stand.

^Sometimes one can't help generalizing even though it's wrong - this above is a prime reason why I don't care for Turks. I've never seen any 'Muslim' society with their degree of self-loathing. Helluva brainwash by good ole Ataturk.

^I don't think this highlights anything about Muslims in general. It does highlight something about certain cultures - namely Arab ones. What I take away from this is the pervasive expectation from females and generally only females to remain chaste in the broader Muslim ethos. The guys are generally given a free pass even when known to be a philanderer. That has to change.

^GD and company = Devil incarnate and I and company = Angels and light. With that type of thinking - I see the Somalia mess getting resolved in no time. Hoohaa! :eek:

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: ^^Brother Duke’s night talks aside, don’t you think, yaa ThePoint , the acts of tfg and Ethiopian forces are criminal in quality? Good intent is a poor defense here, mind you, when you tally the devastation brought upon the city and its residents. It’s clear what happened in Mogadishu is historic in its magnitude and feeble words intended to mask its enormity is just that---feeble! Firing mortars and shells in civilian areas is criminal. For that this TFG will have to answer. But I'm not sure how you fight criminals who started the shelling and killing as opposed to negotiating and who chose to conduct their fight from an urban envirnoment. To argue that your options are not limited in that situation is the feeble position Xiin.