Plastic face. Plastic brain.

^I don't think this list means much. Presumably you have to do business with or have a relationship with people in Somalia to get the perception that it is corrupt, more corrupt, most corrupt etc. There are a limited number of outsiders doing any interaction with Somalia mostly western NGOs. And i doubt there is any country in Africa more corrupt or wasteful than the Africa based NGOs. PS - I see they have 'Somalians' in there. Somebody should contact them.

Originally posted by Mintid Farayar: Gentlemen, Not to highjack your discussion with Duke, but there's been some misunderstandings regarding my interest in the livestock numbers for the 2 ports. I'm too lazy to retype what I wrote in the other thread so I will just copy and paste it into here: As for you, Xiin, shallow analysis as usual. The reason I found the charts presented by 'The Point' to be so interesting is: Berbera traditional has handled the bulk of livestock for all of the former Somalia from independence on. Everyone with a scintilla of awareness knows that. The reasons for that are logical - it being the only deepwater port in the area besides Djibouti. In addition, the real trade in livestock for Somalis is with the Saudi market where our livestock fetches the highest price vis-a-vis the price for our livestock in other countries. Bossasso, on the other hand, being a shallow water port, cannot handle the larger traditional live animal ships, but rather mostly dhows and lighter, smaller ships with limited capacity. In addition, Bossasso usually exports to the Yemeni market across the waterway where prices are far lower, and if possible the livestock is smuggled into Southern Saudi Arabia (far away from the major Saudi metropolises and the higher prices). In 2001, the Saudi livestock embargo was put into place, effectively shutting down the Berbera livestock trade. The only market then open to most Somalis was the Yemeni market served primarily by Bossasso (where livestock fetches about 20% of what it would fetch in the Saudi market). If you notice in the charts, Bossasso only started surpassing Berbera starting from 2001 (correlating with the embargo). The increased numbers for Bossasso are still far less than the numbers for Berbera in years preceding the embargo. As usual shallow analysis... Now with the embargo lifted, well, I think even you can figure out what's going to happen... Actually - there isn't much depth to this analysis. 1- If as you state the livestock is going to Yemen since the enactment of the ban - then Berbera which is closer to the Yemen coast than Bosaaso should be getting that business. Berbera should also be getting that business since bigger ships can anchor there and using economies of scale can make a profit despite the limited markets. Which means they should be able to offer better prices to nomads and thus lead in the shipment of livestock. With its inherent competitive advantage Berbera should be the leading port in the north livestock ban or not. That it is not says something about the economics of using the port. 2. The fact that Bosaaso doesn't approach the livestock numbers that Berbera had in its heyday is not meaningful. Berbera in its heyday was the only real port in the whole north so one didn't have a choice when shipping livestock. Now there are two ports competing - so the numbers any one port can get are more limited. Even with the ban lifted - Berbera has to up its game given how well Bosaaso is doing despite its many shortcomings. It's not clear at all at this point that Berbera will regain it's role as the leading port of the north as a result of the lifting of the ban.

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka: 1-Ah! the simplicity of the novices. That is what I hate. The statment I quoted above is overused to the extent it is nothing more than a cliche nowadays. This is what I always warn against; the ease with which some people utter general truths that are not context-alligned and not specific enough. More importantly, what tells you that what you, a cyber persona who is out of touch of what the reality is on the ground, know will not be known by those who are engaged with the matter full time? What makes you feel you can peddle petty recycled ideas as if there are no capable thinkers among a committed executive committee that is constantly advised by intellectuals? Why do you mention novice - unless you fought with the ONLF on the ground or are a political commander or are a credentialed military historian - then I will cede that point to you willingly. In the absence of those criteria - don't give yourself airs sir. I may be a cyber persona but whether I'm in touch or not is irrelevant. What is clear is that the ONLF has been skirmishing with the Ethiopians for many years to little effect - many Somali people in the Kilinka 5 region do not support the ONLF struggle - Ethiopia has managed to divide the Os themselves with some working for it and others fighting it. To wit - where's the evidence of a clear political strategy? Presumably my 'petty recylcled ideas' have to be countered by 'the capable thinkers of a committed executive that is constantly advised by intellectuals' with an actual strategy. Let's see what they do with the latest victories. 2- You asked, "What's up with this claim of Somalis except Os wilt in the face of the Ethiopians and only Os can defeat them?". The first part of the sentence is sadly true. Let us talk with evidences. Whoelse dared to face the Ethiopians? Is it not the case when their Ural's march from FerFer, Beletwien is vacated!! It is a true statement. The second part of the statement is your deductions. Anyone who is committed can defeat the Ethiopians (who are not by the way a monolithic group as you present it). The Issa community are not afraid of them and have beaten the Tigre's around Afdam and Meiso in 1992. But they are preoccuied with the fight with Afars. Whoelse ever shot at an Ethiopian army? I am talking about the rest of the clans in the region? Even when the dead body of a raped 15 year old girl was displayed in Filtu, Liban zone, no one raised a finger. Forget Jigjiga.So, it is true. I'm not sure whether it is ignorance or deliberate misrepresentation. When attacked by a superior force - you don't stand there and take it. You melt away and attack guerilla style which is what happened when the Ethiopians invaded southern Somalia. And this is exactly how the ONLF wages war. Nobody is wilting. Where the ONLF does possess an advantage over other Somalis is long experience in fighting Ethiopia. That's it. 3- No, you weren't supposed to join the woo-hooing as you said (but actually it is the celebrations of those who enjoyed a limited victory, which you are desperately trying to belittle). You were hoping that when you handover few of the fighters, the whole struggle will end, and you will gleefully chant 'haven't I told you, you fools'! You were bitter and used reproducing old cliches and utterances of novice political scientists to defile the enormously moral-boosting victory of the liberation fighters. I will not be hoodwinked by your clever-by-quarter crocordile tears, saaxiib! I am 'desperately trying to belittle the limited victory' by stating a truism? - you need a political strategy to go with your military strategy. Do I look like Faroole or the Puntland regime to you? Why do you state - 'You were hoping that when you handover few of the fighters, the whole struggle will end, and you will gleefully chant 'haven't I told you, you fools'! Unbo-liv-able! The charges brigade goes on with 'bitter' and 'defile the enormously moral-boosting victory of the liberation fighters'. What exactly is it that I am bitter about and how did I defile your enormous moral-boosting victory? The fact is that any response other than woo-hooing pisses you off. That't it. Saaxib - it seems you only have 2 modes - either foaming at the mouth or as a producer of sexualized skits. You desperately need a third mode - something somewhat rational and logical if you wish to debate with people. PS - I don't think you know what crocodile tears means - I suggest you go look it up.

Originally posted by Abtigiis & Tolka: unevenly matched? do you know anything about the history of gurrilla warfare? Anyone, this is the sentiments of most Somali's across the border. They shudder when they hear the name Ethiopia. Wax wayn bay u haystaan. You will see what will happen in few years time. It is an issue of resolve dear Nogobawi, and The Point et al are not famed for that. For them everything has to be started to qucikly reap something out of it or the course must be changed. Anyway, ignore the crocordile tears and elephant milks. Waxa hadda kolkaad war yar oo guul ah sheegto, talo aan jirin loogu ordi waa quudhi waa!! I was wrong to respond to him. I assume this is more of your balls talking rather than any brains - you've been on a tear like that lately. The two sides are unevenly matched. Guerilla warfare can work but it requires skills. You need a political strategy to consolidate your military gains. You need to talk to your enemy to give him a way to save face. Go and study Vietnam before mouthing off. What's up with this claim of Somalis except Os wilt in the face of the Ethiopians and only Os can defeat them? Are you telling me Os are a superior breed of Somali and not the average geeljire? Walle dad baa caqli oo dhan ka tagay. I guess I was supposed to join the woo-hooing brigade. Carry on chappies.

What is the role of a Somali man? Seems to me this sort of question just results in categorizing people into neat little slots. That's not the reality of life.

For the charts see page 8/9. Charts FSAU Berbera Livestock Exports FSAU Bosaaso Livestock Exports PS - don't call me young lady again.

^Taking all of this at face value(very hard to do with you ) - the $64,000 dollar question is - since you said ur to the rest of Somalia - why the undue interest in how Somalia's jackpot is divied up?

What a load of crap. There has been an epidemic lately of fantasy reporting about Somalia. Just because we're a failed state doesn't mean you can make up anything that titillates your fancy.

I think that Ngonge's analysis is mostly right. I do think that time is running out on Shiekh Sharif and his TFG. There is little to show for all the hype. I also think that the two northern entities are by default moving backward if they're not moving forward. That means elections and a handover of power in Sland and improved security and the return of LA for Pland.

Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar: Labadaan gobol ee 'laan' la baxay, waa Waqooyi Galbeed iyo Waqooyi Bari, dadka difaaco inta ku jiro maxee ugu egyihiin laba naag la isla qabo. Marba kuwa u alalaasaayo the other's perceived misfortune. Dadkaan ayaa Soomaali isla ah lamaba isdhahaayo. Lord. The funny thing is that Somalis in the South had they set up regional states would probably engage in the same sort of yapping. The sad thing is that they haven't managed to reach that stage. It takes a bit of qualifications to engage in the yapping!

^I think the 'casual observer' would have serious doubts about your motives. Thus, I as a 'casual observer' would like to see the articles of the agreement and where they match the points you listed above.

A lot of woo-hooing for very little. Will these gains be consolidated through political dialogue since the warring parties are so unevenly matched? If as is likely the answer is no - then all that this will result in is a further violent military offensive by the Ethiopians.

Only Somalis would agree to an agreement and sign it and then demand changes and/or renege on it and/or demand a re-signing after signing it. A federal system is in place in many countries where the rights and responsibilities of each entity is set out. Why is it so difficult to come to a similar understanding between TFG and Puntland?

Originally posted by Meiji: Second, As Northeastern Somalia concerns, it is no different than the other regions in Somalia and it should not behave opportunistic. Its leaders and elite are corrupted and behaving in a clannish selfish manner that goes against the General Interest of Somalis. In 2004, that corrupt and selfish-clanish elite supported the creation of the Tigre Funded Group (TFG) since the leader of that illegitimate group was one of them. That opportunistic and clannish elite have supported the artificial 4.5 clan formula to become the basis for powersharing. Along with that, they supported the idea of mini-clan states which only weaken the unity and power of Somalia. Anno 2009, when the concepts (4.5, TFG) they supported have been taken over by other men who have outplayed them they have resorted to silly threats of ''seceding'' and ''taking back their support for the TFG''. As Qanyare said: You can not claim your share via the 4.5 and the clan-state. Either the 4.5 or through clan-states. Lastly, The clannish and opportunistic elite of Northeastern Somalia (and all other groups who behave likewise) should know one thing: In the near future, Somalia will have a strong central state that is elected by Somali people and in our own country. The various regions in Somalia can exercise power limited to regional issues and in strategic area's they have to work with the central state. In no scenario will regional chieftains and clans be allowed to erode the unity and power of the nation. This means the central state is above any individual region or clan and as such must not negotiate with any individual clan or region. Central State= The Summ of All Somali Regions and its population. As such that collective insitution can not negotiate with an individual clan/region. If you really believe there will be a return to centralized rule from Mogadishu you are deluded. If you think that centralized rule is the correct way to govern Somalia in the midst of mutual distrust and complete government breakdown - you are living on cloud cuckoo land.

Originally posted by Suldaanka: Bosaso is no match for Berbera. Berbera is able to support bigger ships, is half the distance to the market (Jiddah/Jizan), and the livestock require less time on the sea which means less food and less fuel costs. That means the livestock brokers in Berbera are able to maintain profit margins even when they offer better prices per head of livestock to the nomad - which in turn means for nomads bringing their livestock over to Berbera. Actually the figures don't bear you out for the last several years. As you can see starting in 2001 until the last full year 2007 - Berbera port has been underperforming Bosaaso port sometimes significantly so. Somalis have a habit of insisting they are right without checking facts particularly when it comes to qabiil issues. Don't make it a habit saaxib. These figures were compiled by the Food Security Analysis Unit - Somalia from figures supplied by the Berbera/Bosaaso port authorities.

Raamsade, 1. What the state proclaims doesn't matter much (witness DRC or NK). Sharia is a comprehensive way of governance - it cannot be reduced to Xuduud or no-interest. Saudi Arabia and Iran have their own rules on hijab but as I said before it only takes one entity(national government or not) that proclaims it practices Sharia and doesn't force women to wear the hijab to blow your argument out of the water. Witness Hamas(despite your dither above) or Hezbollah. 2. 'Modern, moral sensibilities', 'modern values', 'just, fair and humane' etc - do you believe that a certain people, geographic region, religion or culture have a monopoly on decent values and sensibilities? I don't know what modern means in this context. It's just a word certain people culturized in the west throw out. Basically what they mean is that if you don't look like me, act like me, order yourself the way I do - you are primitive. It's a very convenient tactic. 3. 'For example, a Muslim in the West can't avoid being confronted with various believes/practices that contradict his religion. By the same token, the devout Muslim can't divorce from his religion for fear he'll earn eternal damnation. The devout Muslim in the West is often required to make difficult trade-offs between demands of the West (religious pluralism, gender equality etc) and observing his religious duties. Thus, you got the classic condition of cognitive dissonance.' For someone who I presume is not a Muslim - I'm not sure how you KNOW that Muslims have to make difficult trade-offs or are experiencing cognitive dissonance. I urge you to ask the practicing Muslims on SOL whether they are experiencing cognitive dissonance. Had you bothered to actually find out rather than concoting theories that fit your preconceived bias/prejudice - you would learn that most Muslims are able to conduct their lives according to Islam and are able to leave off or avoid that which doesn't in the west. There are difficulties but there is little if any cognitive dissonance. 4. 'Hypocrites and cowardly', 'equivocation and denial'. You like to throw out the words don't you? How about this definition for a hypocrite - one who is born a Muslim, leaves the religion and then uses every conceivable tactic to slander, malign, demonize the religion he was born into with little understanding of it in the first place. Let me break it down for you. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Al-Qaeda or Al-Shabaab do not encapsulate the religion of Islam - no matter how many times you insist they do. Neither does what you say is Islam actually make it Islam. I haven't denied any policies of Saudi Arabia or Iran - what I have denied is that they are practicing proper Sharia in its complete form. That's it. 5. Neither Saudi Arabia nor Iran embarass me as a Muslim. They might disappoint me or disgust me. As for your pity, save it for those who buy your feeble arguments. 6. Neither of your documents shows that Hamas has officially prescribed hijab for all women and that not wearing one will result in punishment for breaking the law. Isolated incidents are not going to cut the mustard here. 7. You went from demanding 'proportionate outrage' to measuring and ranking priorities/preferences via survey? What a climbdown. I take it you realize the folly of your demand. You don't need to take surveys to rank Muslim's priorities or preferences. Most Muslims in the developing world are concerned about putting food on the table, the health and education of their children, being able to lead a happy and fulfilling life etc. Why do you keep the refrain of 'deafening silence' and 'remain silent'? You don't have a way to guage this just as you don't have of guaging 'proportionate outrage'. All you have is your bias which only lets you register a 'deafening silence'. Stick to 'easily' measuring the Muslim priorities in SOL first and tell us the results you get. Otherwise you've got diddly squat on this argument. 8. As I said France's ban on religious symbols unduly affects Muslims' ability to follow the tenets of their religion. You can hardly compare that to not allowing a large cross or a yarmulke in class. To do so would show a large logical defieincy indeed. France doesn't lash or imprison people for their dress but they get kicked out of tax payer funded public schools. Hardly praise-worthy. 9. Non-Muslims are second class citizens in your biased view of Sharia. It's so odd that those second class citizens chose to stay in 'Muslim lands' for centuries and were active participants in the vibrant intellectual and social life thereof. But this is off-topic really. 10. I am glad you recognize there is a continuum for the tenets of democracy. There is also a continuum for Shariah and SA and Iran are at the low end of that continuum. That's why pointing to them and insisting that is Shariah or Islam in action is mistaken. I've told you and illustrated to you several times in the course of this thread that very point. Any further insistence on that point shows willful ignorance and bias.

Faroole as Pharaoh - ok got it. Paragon as Moses - not really seeing it. Maybe the inarticulacy part. Yeah - that's it. OGs and their reps on SOL as Jews - don't really think so. Wait - only that A&T character - he fits all the negative stereotypes especially as as a walking fitna wade. The question is who plays Aaron?

It's a combination of craven money grubbing and pointless controversey seeking. People need to go and read. Even 3 year olds know how to do it. And I fully support any and all peacful boycotts, protests, effigy burnings and the like which this may or may not generate.

^Nogob ah? Is it in Ogade-nia? I think you guys have proven inaa rabsha miren tiheen. You are officially excluded from the song. And if you're unhappy about it go suck a lemon. And should you decide to launch another scorched earth campaign on the pages of SOL - I will....Yeah you really don't wanna know what I will do

This land is my land This land is your land From Saylac to Kaambooni From the Calmadow forests to the Jubba river . . . . . This land was made for you and me Seriously - let's just move on from this sort of crap.

^Only IF Riyaale goes. Quite literally I think his a$$ is superglued on to the President's kursi. Tug and try as they might - his opponents can not budge the master. He laughs in the face of feebleness

^Nuune - the teeth pulling has been verified - don't go all overboard on this.

1. Two states out of how many in the Muslim world? Not too sure what it is you're crowing about proving. Hamas does not have any laws that mandate hijab nor do they enforce the wearing of hijab on anyone Muslim or not. Unless you can provide proof - this statement is simply a lie. 2. Hamas, Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood don't advocate for hijab for all women. The idea that all Islamists are the same on this issue is false. 3. Proportionate outrage? This sort of demand is the bastion of prejudiced bigots. Tell me how does one measure 'proportionate outrage' - what measuring stick or scale do you use? Even if you had such a thing - where do you go to quantify this outrage - websites, newspapers, tv - where exactly? This impossible demand speaks to your biased mindset and has no basis in logic. 4. Saudi Arabia is a closed, extremely traditional culture. They do not proclaim themselves as an example to the world. They do not trumpet a three word national motto. They do not extoll the virtues of their republic. They do not proclaim freedom of religion as a core right. Saudi Arabia is not putting itself out there as a bastion of enlightenment. That's why France bears more criticism. It's the only western country to ban hijab in certain places. Thus France and Saudi Arabia share the rare distinction of restricting women's dress on the basis of religion. Is France then not worthy of more criticism? This is not a complicated argument. 5."Non-Muslims can't build places of worship in Saudi Arabia and many other Islamic countries or face extreme restrictions BECAUSE of Islamic law and nothing else." Three questions. What other country besides Saudi Arabia can non-Muslims not build places of worship? Which are the 'many' countries where non-Muslims face 'extreme restrictions' and what specifically are the 'extreme restrictions'? If they face 'extreme restrictions' - how did you determine that was as a result of Islamic law rather than prejudice, ignorance, zoning, noise issues etc etc? 6. Sharia has different sets of laws because some issues of Islamic morality are not applicable to non-Muslims. Did you want Sharia to force non-Muslims into accepting all aspects of Islamic morality? I think that would be an unfair burden. 7. The rights that are being infringed upon in France are those of freedom of religion. A hijab according to most scholars is a mandatory part of Islamic worship and not something of a frivolous nature. France is interfering with that right. In the interests of appearing to be fair France has chosen to ban other 'conspicous religious items' such as yarmulkes and large crosses. But neither of those items has the wieght of hijab or is an integral part of Jewish/Christian worship according to my knowledge. 8. Most knowledgeable people will tell you that Saudi Arabia is not living upto the Quran, the Shariah and the Sunnah. I'm not sure where you get off saying that it is? If you want to go into detail why it is not - you can engage with our resident scholar Nur. 9. It's funny that you mention communism and North Korea. It's official name is the Democatic People's Republic of North Korea. You also have the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Now having seen these countries in isolation - any half-wit would quickly come to the conclusion that democracy is a horrible and brutal system of government since these two countries that claim to be democratic are nightmarish places to live. I assume you can guess what the problem here is my friend. You have the same problem. If you really want to see the Quran, Shariah and the Sunnah in action you need to study the times of the Prophet and the four rightly guided caliphs. Pointing at Saudi Arabia and insisting that is Islam in action will only score you points with the ignorant and the prejudiced. Overall - I think you need to stop the hyperbole, the distortions and the flat out untruths if you want to engage in debate and discussion. If you have legitimate criticisms state them without bias and they will be judged on their merits. But attacks for the sake of attacks is pointless, tiresome and ultimately reveals a deep-seated sickness for which there is no cure.

War ninkaan Abdi Shiek yaa naga qabta?