Ace of Spadez;936915 wrote: Then if these talks are not going to go anywhere why bother? Somaliland is strategically playing for the long haul. On their side, they have possession of the territory they claim minus a few hamlets. By paying lip service to these talks to get aid they will get to improve their economy and infrastructure and thereby strengthening Somaliland as a country. So far it has been able to resist the perils of accepting such aid by informing the UK, it will not attend the May 7th conference despite the UK’s repeated requests for Somaliland be present. It will also get the world involved in the Somaliland-Somalia impasse. This is crucial in getting Somaliland to thwart off any diplomatic pressure Somalia may have attempted by putting this conflict out there for all to witness in the international community. Somalia on the other hand doesn’t have the luxury of a strategy. They’re too busy putting out too many fires and need one less problem to deal with. They’d happily defer any serious talks with Somaliland so they can focus on the more imminent issues like Federalism, Jubaland, Al-Shabaab, creating an army, government institutions etc. The way these talks are structured, foreshadow what is to come. Ngonge & Odweyne are spot on to highlight the nuances of how these talks have started and are proceeding. Anyone who doesn’t understand the precedents that are being set with these talks and how the narrative has been changed forever is simply deluding themselves. I don't understand what Somaliland playing for the 'long haul' has to do with eventual acheivement of secession. Possession of territories and peace and development hasn't seemed to matter to the IC for the last 20 years. I don't see how spinning the UK snub - the one country that knows the most about Somaliland and is the best positioned to press the IC for recognition - as somehow positive. There has been no credible case made in this thread that Somaliland goes into these talks with some advantage. Neither side has any inherent advantage to these talks - but the longer this process drags on the more advantageous it will be to the Somali Federal government as it builds it institutions, economy and diplomatic relations.

I always thought the deportations of those poor Oromos in Somaliland was a bad idea

U.S. visitor questions treatment by CBSA, police DART team By Hugh Adami, Ottawa Citizen October 24, 2012 Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/visitor+questions+treatment+CBSA+police+DART+team/7441737/story.html#ixzz2AiOeRxxq A Somali-American who often visits family in Ottawa believes he is the victim of racial profiling by Ottawa police and unjust confinement by the Canada Border Services Agency. Mahad Abdulhamid Islam, 32, was held for nine days at the Ottawa Carleton Detention Centre on Innes Road where, he says, he was roughed up and called many obscene names. Islam arrived at Ottawa airport on Oct. 10. About two hours later, after dropping in on some relatives, his cousin was driving him and another cousin to visit more family when the Ottawa police DART unit pulled them over on Bank Street, near Cahill Drive, in South Keys. He says there was no apparent reason why police stopped them other than, he believes, their colour. Although Islam provided police with his passport as identification, the DART team, which targets gang crime in Ottawa, called in the CBSA. According to a CBSA report, filed by an agent at the scene, police asked for assistance in identifying Islam after he produced a U.S. passport but refused to tell them his name or date of birth when he was asked. CBSA agents arrested Islam after determining he had a criminal conviction in Virginia, and eventually took him to the Ottawa Carleton Detention Centre, where he was held Oct. 10 to 19. He was freed by an immigration judge, who expressed concern over his treatment, but was ordered to leave Canada by Friday. Islam says he drank out of the toilet in his cell on the second day because the water taps of the cell’s sink had been turned off and no one at the jail heeded his calls that he was thirsty. To preserve the water in his toilet, he defecated and urinated on the cell’s floor. He says a group of guards entered his cell on the fourth day he was there, took him to another area, handcuffed his wrists and ankles, and punched and slapped him as he lay face down. He says he was called a “terrorist.” He says he was ordered to take a shower with his wrists still bound. Islam, who suffers from attention deficit disorder, says he was denied his prescription medicine for the ADD until the fifth day of his incarceration. He says he becomes anxious and confused when he doesn’t take the medicine. He says he repeatedly yelled and banged his hands on his cell door for help during the first four days, but was generally ignored. He says the water taps were turned on the same day he was finally given his medicine. Islam says U.S. Embassy staff visited on his fifth day in jail, but offered little support. Ottawa police Sgt. Mark MacMillan, who called the CBSA to say police were holding Islam and needed assistance to determine if he was here legally, did not return calls to The Public Citizen. Meanwhile, an Ottawa police media spokesman said he would check the file but was unsure whether he could comment. The CBSA was looking into the matter before commenting, as was Ontario’s Community Safety and Correctional Services Ministry. A report by CBSA agent Marc Yelle, who with his partner was dispatched to the scene of the traffic stop, says when they asked him for his passport, he “immediately became confrontational and argumentative in provide (sic) his document to us. After arguing with us the passport was provided. “ISLAM had a stamp in his passport indicating he had entered Canada on this day. When we began to ask him about his purpose in Canada, how he would support himself, if had a criminal record, ISLAM was adamant that he had rights and that he did not have to answer my questions.” Islam readily admits he refused to speak to the police or the CBSA without a lawyer being present. Under Canadian law, Islam has that right. After Yelle asked a CBSA office to do a background check on Islam, the misdemeanour conviction came up. Islam was arrested and taken to a CBSA building on St. Laurent Boulevard. His cousins were allowed to leave. Islam says his passport, Virginia driver’s licence, suitcase, jacket, belt, and iPhone were seized. He was taken to the detention centre and placed in a cell with other prisoners before he found himself in solitary confinement. Islam’s relatives were kept in the dark about his whereabouts until Oct. 12. When his brother went to visit him with Farah Aw-Osman, head of Canadian Friends of Somalia, they were told to come back because Islam had been acting strangely. “They told us this was not a good time to visit,” says Aw-Osman. Though the immigration judge agreed to have Islam deported at a hearing last week because of the criminal conviction in the U.S., he was released from custody while he awaits to return home to Range, Virginia, on Friday. The judge determined that Islam should not have been in jail and indicated that he did not pose a flight risk, was not a danger to the public and his identity was known to authorities. The judge didn’t buy Yelle’s claim that Islam “is associating with criminals while in Canada.” Islam’s lawyer, Rezaur Rahman, who was hired by the man’s Ottawa relatives, says police had no reason for alerting the CBSA because Islam’s U.S. passport indicated that he had entered Canada legally and been granted visitor’s status by a CBSA agent at the airport. Rahman says CBSA agents also disregarded that information when they arrested his client. While Canada does generally deny visitors with criminal backgrounds entry unless certain conditions are met, a new policy allows people who have not served jail sentences to enter Canada on a visitor’s permit. Islam was convicted in 2007 of assault and battery, a misdemeanour in Virginia, and fined $1,026. He was not jailed. Islam says the conviction stems from pushing a man during a dispute, and he hardly considers himself a criminal. Islam, who moved from Somalia to the U.S. with his parents in 1996, says he is a frequent visitor to Ottawa where he has many relatives and friends, including a brother. Islam says he plans to complain to the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C., about his ordeal and ask that he be allowed in Canada again. “I have to see my family.” Is something bothering you? Please contact: thepubliccitizen@ottawacitizen.com Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/visitor+questions+treatment+CBSA+police+DART+team/7441737/story.html#ixzz2AiOzzlst

According to the European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF) and Joint Typhoon Warning Centre (JTWC) an area of convection currently located off the north-eastern coasts of Somalia has a high potential to develop into a Tropical Cyclone by 25 October and bring strong winds and heavy rains (up to 150mm over the next three days) to north-eastern Somalia and Yemen’s Socotra Island. Episodes of flash-flooding and landslides could occurr in these areas in the coming days. Constant monitoring of this event will be provided and updates will be issued as more information becomes available. http://www.hewsweb.org/briefs/?INFID=151 ---------------------------------- Hope the authorities have informed the people

Something to the ramblings. You can't satisfy the endless subclans - he needs to show he is a decisive leader from the get go. Otherwise it will be open season for every tom, dick and harry to think they can influence his government.

Could it be Nin that something is about to happen to you? Hope you didn't miss the big showdown if ur still alive for it.

^Yes - logically every woman isn't cut out to be a mother. Or that someone is upfront about that. But I can't understand the women who are saying - I hate being a mother, it is a prison sentence etc in the article. Being a mother has many similarities to being a wife or a sister or a daughter - it's about caring as much as the work involved. I suspect many of these ladies are selfish, narcisistic and self involved. Perhaps they should have adopted a puppy first.

MMA and Che on a mission to save Somali women from the clutches of the evil psuedo reverts and cadaaaans!

LOL @ 24 hrs to leave Mogadishu. Are we back to the early 90s? The mild mannered professor is jekyll and hyde? Interesting. If he is indeed behind this rather than surrogates - he has more cojones than I thought.

I posted it because I thought it was an interesting article worthy of discussion. Not because it reflects my personal feelings. Juxa/Blue, This author cites the abandonment of children as a direct consequence of society's adulation of motherhood and the expectations that motherhood is the natural role all women should play. And that many woman actually are not cut out for it.

The popular narrative about the Sayid is full of adulation. If we get something critical - shouldn't be a big deal. What was the author's conclusion anyway?

Federalism waa muqadas. It's time to bury anti-federalists and their moronic mindset starting with cimamad boy.

AUN - I'm sensing an inexperienced driver. I feel much less annoyed that my mother did the same thing - only it was a garage door she tried to kill.

Why the ingrained expectation that women should desire to become parents is unhealthy In 2008, Nebraska decriminalized child abandonment. The move was part of a "safe haven" law designed to address increased rates of infanticide in the state. Like other safe haven laws, parents in Nebraska who felt unprepared to care for their babies could drop them off at a designated location without fear of arrest and prosecution. But legislators made a major logistical error: They failed to implement an age limitation for dropped-off children. Within just weeks of the law passing, parents started dropping off their kids. But here's the rub: None of them were infants. A couple of months in, 36 children had been left in state hospitals and police stations. Twenty-two of the children were over 13 years old. A 51-year-old grandmother dropped off a 12-year-old boy. One father dropped off his entire family -- nine children from ages one to 17. Others drove from neighboring states to drop off their children once they heard that they could abandon them without repercussion. The Nebraska state government, realizing the tremendous mistake it had made, held a special session of the legislature to rewrite the law in order to add an age limitation. Governor Dave Heineman said the change would "put the focus back on the original intent of these laws, which is saving newborn babies and exempting a parent from prosecution for child abandonment. It should also prevent those outside the state from bringing their children to Nebraska in an attempt to secure services." On November 21, 2008, the last day that the safe haven law was in effect for children of all ages, a mother from Yolo County, California, drove over 1,200 miles to the Kimball County Hospital in Nebraska where she left her 14-year-old son. What happened in Nebraska raises the question: If there were no consequences, how many of us would give up our kids? After all, child abandonment is nothing new and it's certainly not rare in the United States. Over 400,000 children are in the foster care system waiting to be placed in homes, thousands of parents relinquish their children every year. One woman even sent her adopted child back to his home country with an apology letter pinned like a grocery list to his chest. Whether it's because of hardship or not, many Americans are giving up on parenthood. In February 2009, someone calling herself Ann logged onto the website Secret Confessions and wrote three sentences: "I am depressed. I hate being a mom. I also hate being a stay at home mom too!" Over three years later, the thread of comments is still going strong with thousands of responses -- the site usually garners only 10 or so comments for every "confession." Our anonymous Ann had hit a nerve. One woman who got pregnant at 42 wrote, "I hate being a mother too. Every day is the same. And to think I won't be free of it until I am like 60 and then my life will be over." Another, identifying herself only as k'smom, said, "I feel so trapped, anxious, and overwhelmed. I love my daughter and she's well taken care of but this is not the path I would have taken given a second chance." Gianna wrote, "I love my son, but I hate being a mother. It has been a thankless, monotonous, exhausting, irritating and oppressive job. Motherhood feels like a prison sentence. I can't wait until I am paroled when my son turns 18 and hopefully goes far away to college." One D.C.-based mom even said that although she was against abortion before having her son, now she would "run to the abortion clinic" if she got pregnant again. The responses -- largely from women who identify themselves as financially stable -- spell out something less explicit than well-worn reasons for parental unhappiness such as poverty and a lack of support. These women simply don't feel that motherhood is all it's cracked up to be, and if given a second chance, they wouldn't do it again. ............. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/not-wanting-kids-is-entirely-normal/262367/

^How did Hassan manage to come out of the 25+ candidates is the question and secure significant support in the 1st round? Good old Ngonge. Hope your amazement re konfurian governance continues.

Congrats to him - may he be a good president. The internal politicking is something I'd like to know more about - how a complete unknown managed this - or was this stage managed by others for him.

This woman had a choice before deciding to behead this guy - why go through 8 months of rape - she could have moved her kids to safety. It doesn't make sense. But no doubt this guy deserved it if the rapes happened. I just question her judgement.

After the first rape why didn't she go to the police? Or leave the area? Or do anything else short of waiting around to be raped for 8 months instead of beheading the guy? It doesn't make much sense to me.

They are truly qashin. In fact that term goes easy on them.

I agree with Blackflash. If you look at the sizes of Somali cities on Google - many don't support the population estimates claimed for them. Population densities would have to be multiples of the most densely populated places on earth. Chimera - Blackflash's point is a data check - ie does this make sense not a definitive estimate on population.

Garnaqsi;862552 wrote: Is it really that hard to admit that your claim that what I've said can be negated by finding a countering example is wrong? Not only have you now implied that logic might hold for one issue and not the other, but you have also put the weight of your emphasis on there not being many re-appropriated verses provided on my part. Fair enough, you can say that large number of verses where that is the cases should exist for my claim that this is routinely done to hold, but don't make excuses that don't make sense for a claim that's blatantly wrong. As for the second issue, the similarity and detail you demand has been done to death. See this page for a non-Islamic perspective and this for an Islamic perspective. As you can see the similarity is so eerie that whether there had been plagiarisation is a subject of debate (with the defensive position mainly being that it isn't because he couldn't have known about it, and not because the explanation never existed). I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, but it sounds bit too cynical. I see what you're saying now - negate is not quite the word but it was only to show that if they 'routinely re-interpret verses' - why wouldn't they have done so in this case? That they haven't done so doesn't by itself disqualify your claim outright - but it does poke a hole at an assertion you yourself admit you haven't proven. Bit too cynical - wouldn't that be right up your alley?

^Rogue - moi? NGONGE;862512 wrote: El Punto, I gave you everything you need if you were receptive to a proper debate but you chose to ignore it and dismiss the comparisons with Iraq or Afghanistan. You say Karazi & Maliki are clinging to power but where did these two men come from? Were they not the result of the end of transition in both those countries? Do Iraq and Afghanistan not have various groups that are fighting for power? Did the West not impose Karazi & Maliki on them as one of the steps for an eventual withdrawal? What is there that you can’t compare to Somalia, saaxib? As for your wondering about my emotional acceptance of change in the south, that’s just you running out of things to say and playing the man instead of the ball (my blue flag is gathering dust under the bed). ? I didn't dismiss the comparisons out of hand - I tried to show how they didn't apply to Somalia's situation at present. To my mind - 2 issues matter here - politics and security. Karzai and Maliki are clinging to power - this is not the case in Somalia's TFG. From A/Y to Gheedi, Sh Sharif and Nur Caade and many others etc. And we may well have new faces this time around. For me - unlike Xiin the transition itself is not the real turning point - it's that we've got a broad based and well accepted political process to sort out issues of governance - all players recognize it and are familiar with it given this is the second iteration. Practice in this case strengthens the peaceful and partcipatory framework for governance. There are indeed various groups fighting in Iraq - disgruntled Sunnis and secessionist Kurds vs Maliki and the Shias and in Afghanistan - the Taliban vs Karzai and his buddies. Apart from a waning Al-Shabaab - there are no real constituencies that feel disgruntled or are being sidelined in governance in Somalia and are thus taking up arms against the state - everyone gets represented by virtue of 4.5. There are issues to be worked re federalism but I don't see that causing political disarray or deadlock. So on the whole I don't see the similarity between Iraq/Afghanistan on the politcal side. There is a similarity with Al-Shabaab and various insurgent groups in Af/Iraq - but the strength and vitality is markedly different - hundreds are killed per month many in spectacular suicide attacks against the most well armed professional forces around. Al Shabaab seems to have fled from many parts from a few hundred African troops. They may strengthen later but at this point I don't see a security comparison to Iraq/Afgh. It would help if you clearly laid out - what similarities you see and how that may bode ill for Somalia - but it seems you're insistent without doing much analysis yourself. Rather your position is more it didn't go well before in Somalia and it went poorly in these 2 other countries - prove why it will better this time. Well - ok - but it would be a more fruitful debate if yourself rather than just raising questions fleshed out your position more. I said what I said not because I lack in verbosity or in the ability to make my point - it's that I think you set the bar too high for sustainable change in Somalia. And this may not let you see when things have indeed turned the corner. PS - i have not engaged in crazy ululations or shilled for the 'transition' - in fact - this is about the only commentary I've done about my position regarding it. Take that yaa Carab.

NGONGE;862248 wrote: ^^ElPunto, did governance not "return" when Abdullahi Yusuf came to Somali's capital? The argument then was that Villa Somalia was finally in Somali hands and that everything was nice and rosy. What happened next? Trusting your fate to a creaky system in the hands of men we all already know about is foolish, saaxib. You need to be asking the questions about the end of this transition and what it entails. In the past few weeks, I've gone on about the Afghanistan and Iraq examples and kept on reminding you of how their end of transition didn't end the troubles or problems in those countries. How in the world do you expect Somalia to do any better when the "intellectuals" of that country (as A&T calls them) are clutching crystal balls? Naga daaya dee. No - governance didn't return with A/Y - it was more like an implanted thing that was rejected by the host. Hence the aftermath. What we have this time is broad based acceptance of and participation in the governance project. The infant is beginning to crawl and with practice will soon stand up. 'Trusting our fate to a creaky system in the hands of men we already know'- creaky? I think that is being worked out as we speak and with significant international pressure. As to the men in the system - you yourself acknowledge your reservations about Silaanyo - and citizens have reservations about many leaders in the developing world - it doesn't mean the machinery of government even with those folks at the helm isn't vital to moving a coutnry forward. What about the transition and what it may entail seems most pressing to you? The Iraq/Afghanistan examples don't seem relevant to me apart from all 3 countries being places where there was vacuum of governance. In Iraq/Afghanistan you have a static political process with Maliki and Karzai clinging to power at all costs and important constituencies sidelined or marginalized. And the security problems are reinforcing that political disarray. For all its faults the political process in Somalia isn't static - we have new faces and ways of doing things - and there seems to be an understanding by all the players that no one man or constituency can dictate to the others. The process also includes all constituencies through the hated 4.5 system. Where there will be an issue is implementing a federal system and the division of powers. The other key thing apart from the politics is security. It actually seems to be improving in Somalia and with more confidence an participation in governance - it should get better. Iraq/Afg aren't in the same place. You haven't given me specific points here that make you feel pessimistic - apart from generic statments about the problematic transition in Iraq/Afg. I'm not sure there is anything else. I do wonder whether given your viewpoint you are emotionally ready to accept that the south has turned the corner even when presented with the evidence.

A government cannot sign away people's livelihoods for tax money to fill its coffers. Fisherman who fish to feed their family cannot compete with foreign trawlers unless the govt will give them the money directly to compensate them for fish being lost.

Garnaqsi;862187 wrote: Any one case where that hasn't happened doesn't negate the routine because my assertion allows these cases. If I say that there are many integers between 1 and 100 that are divisible by 4, citing 15 does not negate my statement. On the second case, your objection is completely unnecessary and off the mark -- the explanation was there before the Koran, you either accept that or you don't (whether it was postulated/known or even scientific at all doesn't really matter -- why should it, really?). If you do, then the fact of the matter is this cannot be sufficiently considered to be a miracle of any sorts in fact. If you actually don't, then please say so. Your similtude doesn't fit. Integers divisible by 4 is a black and white thing. To show that a verse has been re-interpreted is gray. To claim it's routinely done - you would have to show a large proportion of verses are re-interpreted. You haven't done that. I don't understand how you keep thinking you have. This is the crux of my objection. What explanation was there before the Quran? Is it like the Quran one - in similarity and detail? Doesn't it warrant an actual analysis and proof before asserting the explanation was there before the Quran? This is a moot point since whatever it may be you cannot accept a miracle - you will necessarily ascribe it to something else.