HEHE - interesting - not that I know even 1/4 of the names. Castro, I do believe this is the first time someone with that name got freely given votes and quite a few I might add. Your namesake in Havana must be shaking his head with dismay.

Originally posted by Shams-ud-Din: quote: Thepoint: Christmas, at least orginally, is about the celebration of the birth of Jesus etc. For many devoted Christians - that is primarily what it is about. Ok, I’ll try it again: The Christmas festival is originally not about celebrating the birth of Jesus; it has originated from a pre-christian pagan festivals, which was very important in the heathenish days of pagan European culture to welcome the winter season among other things. This pagan festival has evolved in the last two millennia to the present day Christmas, with its Christian and commercial flavour as experienced today. Therefore all of these are crucial ingredients to the forming of Christmas-holidays where if even a single element is taken out or isolated from the picture, no correct understanding of Christmas is possible! Have I helped now? This is about what’s Xaqq and what’s Baatdhill!!! We cannot whish FALSEHOOD, even for others, and we cannot sacrifice the THRUTH, even for a well-meant disingenuous gesture to please other so they can feel good about their bon vivant falsehoods!!! We can neither ever say “merry Christmas†nor “happy new yearâ€!!! P.S. Our Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) told us that: “Every nation has its own separate festivals; the festivals of this Umma are the two Eids†(or similar in meaning). He (peace and blessings be upon him) also told us that: “Whoever imitates other nations (i.e. cultures alien to Islam), is one of them†(or similar in meaning). I don't disagree with most of your conclusions - however, the new year is a secular holiday - do not confuse the two. Just as we (used) to celeberate Somali Independence Day and we are Muslim. That said - what was it that bothered you about my post?

Originally posted by Castro: quote:Originally posted by ThePoint: Mostly true that - but I wouldn't equate Islamic celebrations with non-Islamic celebrations. One is truth and the others not. Hanuakah has nothing to do with diefication etc. so yeah that can be said with no probs. "Truth" is in the eye of the beholder, saaxib. Some one spoke of the Xaqq and the Baatil somewhere and I think that's taking it too far. It is taking too far because if that same person took everything as literally as they do in this case, that person should find it exceedingly difficult to live in a non-muslim country. Oh Boy! The relativity debate again! The concept is straight-forward - If you believe in Islam and the Propeht(SAWS) then you believe it is the complete and ultimate truth. If you are a Muslim and you don't believe that - then you are weak in your faith. That said if Christians or Jews believe their message is the ultimate truth - good for them - that doesn't threaten me or impinge on my beliefs. To each his own. Find it exceedingly difficult to live in a non-Muslim country - don't know what you're talking about saxiib - examples would be necessary. BTW - the Quran/Hadith is to be taken literally - where debate exists is the intrepretation but that's is another matter

Originally posted by Castro: quote:Originally posted by xiinfaniin: If we celebrate and endorse other religious holidays for gaining acceptance for our own holidays and winning mutual respect in kind, as your rational of singing Merry Christmas seems to be, it would be hypocritical and phony stance to take. I reject that argument saaxib. Quid pro quo is the name of the game here. No one is going to switch faiths because they say merry christmas or happy Hanuka. When I am celebrating Eid and my boss sends me an email wishing me a happy Eid, it's a nice gesture of good will. It's not an embrace of Islam. It's an embrace of a muslim who is a co-worker. It's incumbent upon heterogenous societies to be aware of its members celebrations'. Otherwise, we risk isolation and intolerance. As for Jingle Bell Rock, it's a nice song that happens to be a christmas song whose lyrics are benign and tune is melodic. Mostly true that - but I wouldn't equate Islamic celebrations with non-Islamic celebrations. One is truth and the others not. Hanuakah has nothing to do with diefication etc. so yeah that can be said with no probs. The problem with the other - Merry Christmas - has been detailed. That said - nobody is saying be nasty to your boss because he/she celebrates Christ. - the leap from not uttering the words - Merry Christmas - to intolerance and isolation is exceedingly far-fetched

Castro Again: Saying 'Merry Christmas' is not quite an endorsement of the diety of Jesus - what it definitely is a pat on the back or endorsement of those who do beleive in the diety of Jesus. It is a fine point. Simply because non-Christins/Asians celebrate Christmas - that makes it a non-religious holiday? No, that tells you the power of marketing/cultural exports. If you talk to any practising Christian and say what is your biggest religious observance - he/she will likely say Christmas.

Originally posted by sigma: quote:Saying merry christmas is not an endorsement of the deity of Jesus. That line of thought is demented . And for a people who live in an ocean of christianity and wish to be aknowledged and respected for our holidays and celebrations, we're showing an immense amount of intolerance. thats the only way...please lets stop trying to make even ...take the higher ground :cool: Saying 'Merry Christmas' is not quite an endorsement of the diety of Jesus - what it definitely is a pat on the back or endorsement of those who do beleive in the diety of Jesus. It is a fine point. For me, anyone who wished me Merry Christmas, I reply Happy Holidays - I avoid that tag simply because it is, at best questionable, in Islam - if it happens accidentally than that is what it is. Castro, that is a very weak argument. By not wishing ppl Merry Christmas we are showing intolerance? Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether my observances are acknowledged/respected by the larger society because that has no bearing on my religion's basic truth but it definitely is nice and shows an educated and open society.

Originally posted by Shams-ud-Din: quote: I don't know about you but I've engaged in hoopla and consumerism at times, especially when I have cash in my pocket. Exactly my point, Thepoint Ones you divorce consumerism from “deitification of Jesus†then there’s no Christmas! Have I helped? Salaams No. Because you are wrong. Christmas, at least orginally, is about the celebration of the birth of Jesus etc. For many devoted Christians - that is primarily what it is about. However, for the majority - the celebration is infused by consumerism. Still, you can separate the two. That is my point. So, I still don't get your point?

Wow - talking in circles and talking for the sake of simply talking is a major strength of Somalis as exemplified by this thread. Hopefully, at some point, we can use that as a strength.

Originally posted by McPharax: quote:. So in that event, if they don't wish to hook up with a less than stellar Farax - can't really blame them. And I find it sad as a Farax myself Go Shoot yourself then. I have never been a fan of such topics I will - ONLY if I can take you with me though!

I've heard the whole thing is a fraud - not quite sure - as Somalis are full of gossip and innuendo. Puntland generally a free trade zone - to my knowledge there is nothing you can't import or export through the small ports and on which you will get taxed on. If they did make a deal - I hope they extracted a sufficiently reasonable price - but then it probably will go to the pockets of crooks. SIGH! Oh, for a decent and responsible leadership!

How can you so hopelessly miss the point here? If we take the "deification of Jesus" and separate from the "hoopla and consumerism" then there's no Christmas! For Christmas to exist, both are part of one and the same equation: If you can miraculously divorce the variables from each other and keep the same outcome intact, then please demonstrate. Otherwise, no one here is advocating aggression and violence. [/QB] I never said anyone is advocating agression or violence. I added that phrase to differentiate between hostility and agression/violence. Hoopla and consumerism is part of Valentine's Day/Mother's Day/Father's Day etc. It is not something unique to Christmas. I'm not You certainly can divorce deification of Jesus from hoopla and consumerism - I don't know about you but I've engaged in hoopla and consumerism at times, especially when I have cash in my pocket. All that said, what is YOUR point? What am I hopelessly missing?

As an aside, I detest self-loathing. I dislike those Somalis who bash our culture and country - as some have done on this thread. Somali culture has a number of bad points - namely xenophobia and clannishness. But the culture has an excellent base - namely Islam and close families. And the country and people are tough and resilient and has so many other good things going for it - if we can get our act together.

Just a few thoughts on this already well-discussed thread: 1- Somali culture is generally racist and xenophobic - witness what they do to 'adoon' in their country 2- Somalis are not running away from their colour or have an inferiority complex as some suggested - they wouldn't be the racists they generally are if that were the case - IMHO, Somalis have a superiority complex where they consider all to be beneath them except sometimes the whites - even them they refer to as 'gaalki xumaa' 3- People marry for a variety of reasons - so to say Somali women marry solely to get away from their skin colour or for inferiority complex is dumb 3- I don't know that Somali women have an increased predilection for white men - certainly haven't seen it. In fact, it would seem to me that it would be somewhat unlikely given that the culture is strict with regard to women and their sexuality etc. That said, even if it were true, I feel some sympathy to those Somali women who do marry whites etc. From my experience here in Canada at least, Somali women take more advantages of opportunities available and you see them more likely to be better educated and have better jobs. So in that event, if they don't wish to hook up with a less than stellar Farax - can't really blame them. And I find it sad as a Farax myself.

What an absolutely useless original post!!! Are there any Muslims going around protesting against Christmas or knocking down Christmas trees?? Is there destruction of Manger scenes by Muslims that I'm not aware of? By definition, because we're a minority, we tend to respect their holidays and observances. By stressing toleration and respect - the original poster is implying a lack thereof - which is quite frankly bullshit. Personally speaking, I am hostile to the deification of Jesus and not to the hoopla and consumerism surrounding Christmas. If individuals Muslims wish to be hostile to those false beliefs fine but they shouldn't be agressive or violent about it. Given the large number of immigrants - it's ****** to assume everyone celebrates Christmas and so to wish them Merry Christmas - personally I don't find that offensive as much as annoying and presumptious and I don't like it. I wish these individuals would open thier eyes.

Couldn't agree more - those continental European countries are garbage in terms of immigrants. Thank God we were lucky enough to immigrate to Canada. All of those continental European countries pride themselves on a false 'liberalism' - you can parade down Amsterdams's streets as gay/transgender/trans-freak but if you are Muslim or your skin colour is different - WHOA!! - you're a real freak!

The issue of lost youth definitely is a serious problem but I thought the original post was a massive generalization - there are thousands of decent and upstanding Somalis in North America and hundreds of individuals who have gone on to post-secondary education and have made successful lives for themselves and their families.

Oh Man! The movie was a let down big time. I love international political thrillers but this one was so disjointed as it jumped through the individual narratives. The premise and the basic plot outline was smart, maybe too smart for a lot of the audience at least where I went to see it, but the execution was horrible.

Good for their success - but the place is too much. To measure your progress simply by the amount of conspicous consumption you can acheive is quite sad. 'We've never had a crash.." Hehe, just when you don't expect it, it happens.