^stinking natives??? You're a guest in their country buddy. My worst job was delivering the local Sunday buy and sell rag called the PennySaver here in Ottawa back when I was 12. It was slave labour although admittedly not as bad as many of the rest of the jobs posted. You had to insert a gazillion flyers into every newspaper and then deliver them to about 300 households. For this I got paid $25 for the whole month. And that was the gross before paying my employees - my younger sisters and a nieghbour. At the end of the month I was left with $10 and an aching shoulder. I quit after 2 months.

Originally posted by Castro: ^ LOL. That's on topic. But seriously, sudden is, by definition, without warning. Check it out . So having warnings and being sudden are a contradiction in terms. But this may not necessarily be applicable to the day of judgement. Just knowing that it is coming is an implicit warning. People are often said to have died "suddenly" (in Arabic, "mowt-al-qhafla") when it has been known from the begining of time that life can only lead to death. So it's the sudden in that context, perhaps, that the Quran tells us about the day of judgement. You know it's coming but when it does, it is sudden. I agree and I disagree. Yes to the latter point - everyone knows that at some point each of them will die but even those engaged in high risk activities(ie. being a soldier in Iraq) apparently die suddenly as perceived by their loved ones(this admittedly gleaned from the media accounts). I disagree in this sense: What if you missed the warnings? Is the consequent action sudden then to you? Of course it is even though there were warnings. At the end of the day - the suddenness of an event rests on your perspective and your ability to pick up on any warning signs. For a good illustration of the latter I am reminded of the great early 20th century investor Bernard Baruch. As the market was rocketing up in 1929 - Baruch received a stock tip from his shoeshine boy and to him that was the warning sign of a peak and he sold out his stock positions near the top just before the Great Crash of October, 1929. To many others that crash was sudden but to Bernard Baruch there were ample warning signs.

Originally posted by naden: The ‘signs’ in the Quran seem to speak of the actual moments, whatever their lengths maybe, of the collapse of the earth as we know it. Judgment day and the eternal life cannot begin before this one ends. The collapse of the earth, the arrival of Ya’JuJ and Ma’JuJ, the smoke, the horn, and so on are signs of the end of this world. As a believer, they make sense to me; even metaphorically as I cannot imagine them, they do. What doesn’t make sense is a ‘sign’ that is really nothing more than an odious staple of human interaction that's stubbornly lingered for centuries. I am not sure why it doesn't make sense to you as stated in that last sentence. The word 'signs' is used here in more than one context. Actual moments as you described above and signs that are indicative of the human condition as the end times approach. That a slave mother gives birth to a child who might grow to be her master does not fit in with the nature and type of the immediate ‘signs’ of the hour in the Quran. What's interesting is that the ‘signs’ of the hour outside the Quran are similar to those imagined and believed by cultures and groups foreign to Islam and other monotheistic religions. That they are central to people’s interactions with morality, mortality and reflections of a higher power is evident. Yes - the slave mother hadeeth isn't the same type of sign - the word is used in multiple contexts. The rest, i gather, is more of a personal opinion than anything else. I find that others who also believe in their signs are not altogether that interesting since I give these other world views less credence than I do to Islam. You speak of a ‘foreshadow’. Just how does this ongoing human interaction foreshadow the end? Could humans reach a point of tyranny, poverty and collapse of social justice that slavery is the norm and most women’s wombs bring forth young masters? Could be. Would this mean the end of the world? Maybe. However, a few more countries gaining nuclear weapons and serious fights over oil and water are more ominous and could bring about a speedier end to humanity. It is not the ongoing human interaction that foreshadows the end times but the quality of that human interaction. In Islam we are told that as the end times approach the human condition regresses until at the very end it is at its lowest possible level and the whole entity is done away with. The signs that were posted in another thread are the guideposts along that path of regression and should serve as a foreshadowing of the end times approaching to those who take heed. In my belief, even in the worst scenarios that we humans, with our limitations imagine, the end as spelled out in the Quran is only knowledgeable to God and will happen at his whim as shown by these few verses among many others I wholeheartedly agree. No one is picking and choosing anything. You've never even heard of these ahadeeth and yet you find it 'pathetic' that they are discussed? Matters of significance, relations and reference are important when something is vague. I may have been mistaken but implicit in your original post was a dismissal of those signs in Hadeeth as opposed to those in the Quran. That is the picking and choosing I was talking about. But of course I may be mistaken in that conclusion. NO! I don't find the discussion of ahadeeth pathetic in any way - as I said I find the buffet style Islam puzzling and pathetic. By all means let's get a discussion and elucidation going about those hadeeths but you will have to admit that wasn't the tone and content of your peice. The tone and content was of one vapidly waving away the relevance of these hadeeths. I choose to discuss a list that claims one of the signs of the hour is that “Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business†(Ahmad) (#60) and you can choose to abstain. By all means let's discuss it - but a discussion necessarily involves some call for other's input - your piece struck me more as a high handed editorial. I don't quite get your point with regard to the hadeeth referenced above. For me there is one course of action: 1- Is the hadeeth sound and authentic, 2- Accept it as the implicit truth of Allah if sound and authentic, 3- Find out its meaning as fully as possible in order to gain a better understanding of the religion.

Originally posted by J B: Naden, Self-reflection and balanced positive questioning of what one believes are fair and a badly needed quality, especially in contrast to the prevailing belief system on SOL where principles such as self-criticizing or critical thinking are all but unheard of. I wish the swinging buttocks would knock some people out.

I read the initial piece and I was left with one thought - pointless. And I didn't expect this from an intelligent and thoughtful poster. Some of the comments struck me as belabored and stretching. Sudden doesn't preclude that signs(for those who know and believe) will appear. That the time of the Hour is known only to Allah doesn't preclude that His signs will appear to foreshadow that time. Quite frankly I hadn't heard of the two concluding hadiths - and I don't fully understand them as presented by Naden. And I look forward to others explaining them in detail. But if they are authentic and sound hadiths - then I take them as full part of my religion, Islam. The religion is belief in God, the Quran, the hadiths etc etc. I find the recent phenemonon of picking and choosing with regard to Islam(as if it was some sort of cheesy smorgasbord) puzzling and pathetic.

^Relax - it was a joke - you I will remember to be careful about next time

Originally posted by Valenteenah: quote:Originally posted by askme: I have a question Is using that rubber permitted in the religion or not brothers? Tell me only if you have knowledge about this topic and ONLY if you have got dhaliil ( evidence). Is there a reason why your question is aimed at only the 'brothers'? Are they naturally born with Islamic knowledge? Or is it an unintentional faux-pas on your part? Rather obvious, no? - the very first sister who posted couldn't answer the question - and only gave another question in response. The poster knows what he/she is doing

Originally posted by Bishitta: quote:Originally posted by Castro: ^ So, how ya doin? Is your day going well so far? Wanna play mommy and daddy with me? LOL. I'll play with you any day. Why don't you slip into something more comfortable..like a coma. LOL

^And what are you gonna do - sit on your azz? My friend you are not helping the cause of the delinquent Farah with that statement

^Fair enough old wise one

^but come on, we're talking about your dream place - Toronto? I can understand the charms of big cities like TO or London etc but my dream place to live - confused.

Originally posted by Didi Kong: Hamburg/Frankfurt/Berlin, Germany. Definitely puzzled by this choice! Was just reading an article where prominent Germans were warning the 'dark-skinned' people about possible hostile reception at the World Cup.

^interesting. I still continue to be flabbergasted by people who think others are freaks/aliens because of how they look and what they are. I simply cannot understand this world outlook. With all of the technology and inter-connectedness of the planet - it is truly shocking that world views like that are still around. :mad: :confused:

^Perhaps it was tongue-in-cheek Stoic!

^the reason is the trauma suffered. Traumatic experiences stress the stongest of people and weaken their ability to undertake tasks they would be capable of doing reasnably well. Loud and clear?

Originally posted by sheherazade: ^Not that multi-purpose excuse again. I said 'in some defense of' and it is no excuse- it's called understanding. Understanding for someone whose world has turned upside down and who is dependant on their child to get by in the new society. Surely some allowance can reasonably be expected here. Perhaps - as with your namesake - you simply like to talk but not listen.

^I agree with you in general but what makes me especially outraged is that they proclaim themselves the vanguard/leadership of Muslims and the ummah and they engage in this. The heights of hypocrisy reached by the Saudis and other rich Gulf Arabs are seldom seen anywhere else.

^Far too hard - but somewhere in black Africa for sure - perhaps a ranch in the East African highlands and a place on the coast too - too many permutations to think about

Originally posted by Nur: JB What is really interesting to know is your motivation in Islamic discussions in general and particularly in issues that have caused rift between Muslims, or potentially can in the present. Let me ask you for the record, as a person who has no belief in Allah, or any other form of faith , what gives you the motivation or drive to dedicate your time so much to discredit everything Islamic or devine? I am sure that you can live more meaningful life without the trouble Spot on Nur - I've been wondering about this since shortly after I joined this forum :rolleyes:

^Well in some defense of today's crappy Somali parents - I will say this - the enormous dislocation from their previous life/culture and the trauma they have been through as the result of the civil war has serious negative consequences for their role as parents.

^Yes Baashi - read that report on the Israeli lobby a while back - the uproar and the fuss created by it made me interested and so I read it in full. It is truly fascinating. And the authors couldn't be dismissed as anti-semitic hacks! Cannot STAND Krauthammer. I read the WashPo religiously but his columns irritate the hell out me.

^Wow - forget about the flirting eh? You just want the action - hmmmm - my kind of girl

Originally posted by Dabshid: Very sad indeed, UAE law requires both couples to be tested 4 HIV, before the Meher,engagement, and i reckon it is a great law, and this greatly reduced many pple getting infected. How many of you are in favour of going under the test before getting married? Many of our community would see this as insult. I remember once a couple could not wait for the results, and went to another Sheik , unofficial to prepare the Meher. I certainly would feel insulted if my bride to be said - unh, unh - not unless you get tested. It really depends. You have to know who it is you are getting married to. But in certain in high risk areas - ie. much of Africa - I would make it mandatory.

Originally posted by LaVie: FB my remark was not intended to disparage Somali women au contraire the majority are honest halal working people. I am simply trying to shed light that all is not so rosy in UAE. I'm not sure that life is so rosy for anyone anywhere.

Originally posted by naden: Sobering. This had me a little worried: quote: If developing countries can't run trials, lifesaving breakthroughs will sit in laboratories waiting to be tested. By some estimates, 100,000 people will be needed for HIV-prevention studies over the coming decade. Despite my strong belief that new therapies hold the future for lifting this misery, I am always weary of ethical standards being applied differentially in 'developing' countires. In many, people are largely poor and desperate and don't speak the language of the researchers. What does informed consent mean when someone is illiterate, has no recourse for lawsuits and can't seek second opinions? I agree in general. I wonder though - with the new cocktail drugs you have - HIV/AIDS is becoming a managed disease thus reducing the likelihood of people wanting to participate in clinical trials as it is not(so much) a death sentence.