^My goodness - it seems all logic escapes you. The only thing I'm protecting is the right of people to choose whatever culture/style/mode of living they desire. It really is that simple.

^Interesting and educative. I am very surprised that you were not prodded and poked more because of your skin colour and hijab.

Somali militia plans to seize gov't base MOGADISHU, Somalia - The Islamic militiamen holding most of southern Somalia deployed hundreds of fighters outside the base of the U.N.-backed interim government Wednesday and said they planned to seize it. Seizing Baidoa would make the Islamic militia — which the United States has linked to al-Qaida — the uncontested authority over most of the country. The interim government was on high alert and ready to defend itself from an attack, Deputy Information Minister Salad Ali Jelle told The Associated Press. The Islamic militiamen seized the capital, Mogadishu, last month and have installed increasingly strict religious rule that sparked fears of a Taliban-style hard-line regime in this anarchic Horn of Africa nation. The United States has accused the militia of links to al-Qaida that include sheltering suspects in the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Osama bin Laden has called Somalia a front in his global war against the U.S. and its allies. "Nothing will stop us from going into Baidoa," said Sheik Muqtar Robow, deputy defense chief for the Islamic group. He said more than 130 fighters who were loyal to President Abdullahi Yusuf had defected to the Islamists' side. The interim government already was virtually powerless and barely able to control Baidoa, 150 miles northwest of the capital. "It could be the beginning of a full-out war," said Omar Jamal, executive director of the Somali Justice Advocacy Center in St. Paul, Minn. A Cabinet minister in the interim government was reported Tuesday to be recruiting militiamen to bolster the government and the deployment outside Baidoa appeared to be a pre-emptive strike. Relations between the government and the Islamic militiamen already were strained after the government accused the Islamic group of planning to attack Baidoa, receiving help from foreign terrorists and massacring government supporters during recent fighting in Mogadishu. The government had refused to meet the Islamic group in peace talks set for July 15 in neighboring Sudan, although it appeared to reverse course Monday under pressure from foreign governments pushing for a unified Somali administration. The status of the talks was thrown into uncertainty by Wednesday's deployment. Since its seizure of Mogadishu, the Islamic group has cracked down on purportedly non-Islamic activities such as a wedding with live music and a World Cup screening — shooting and killing two people who were watching. It also replaced its moderate main leader with Sheik Hassan Dahir Aweys, whom the U.S. has linked to al-Qaida. Aweys denies the allegations. In their latest hard-line move, Islamic militiamen with assault rifles raided five halls in northern Mogadishu Tuesday and arrested people who had paid to watch videos, residents said. The residents said Islamic fighters arrested about 60 people during the raids. The chairman of a local Islamic court said his fighters detained only 14. A recent recruiting video issued by militia members shows foreign militants fighting alongside the local extremists in Mogadishu, and invites Muslims from around the world to join in their "holy jihad." Sheik Sharif Sheik Ahmed, a leader of the group, claimed the tape was fabricated by the United States. Somalia has had no real government since the overthrow of a dictator in 1991. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_re_af/somalia;_ylt=AmDjTEUIi8rmWkUfXulGAzes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-

Originally posted by Socod_badne: There's no doubt Isreal is exploiting Hezbollah's blunder. How does destroying a country's infrastructure -- bridges, roads, airports, seaports etc -- ensure save return of two kidnapped soldiers? I think Isreal had it's sights on neutralizing Hezbollah for sometime, waiting for a pretext. Yep - but I wonder whether they will in the end be effective at neutralizing Hezbollah. Iran/Syria will still be there to support them when Israel finishes the current round of bombing and the Shiites of South Lebanon will still be around to support Hezbollah and thus they will be part of any Lebanese government for the forseeable future. It seems to me all Hezbollah has to do to claim victory is to remain standing at the end of all this. And what will have the Israelis accomplished if it plays out like this - simply to engender more enmity from Arabs/Muslims.

Originally posted by me: Viking, I understand your arguments although I think you are wrong in perceiving Arabic influence as benign and in some cases desirable ; I understand where you are coming from and that Islam is your main justification. But our religion recognizes the different nations of the world and their customs. Yes there are universal Islamic rules that all believers should follow. I agree with that 100%. We should not have customs that are contradictory with our Islamic faith. However there are many customs that we Somalis have that that are not against Islam and I am suggesting that we keep those customs. Instead of throwing everything that is Somali away and replacing them with Arabic ones or western. I am not against Islam; I am against Arabism and the Arabization of our people, language and culture. I am also not in favour of these western values. 1- Whether one perceives Arabic influence as benign and desirable is a personal matter; there is really no way it can be 'wrong'. Just wearing a yellow fedora is not a 'wrong' way of dressing. Please don't browbeat people into accepting your position. 2- No one has suggested abandoning Somali customs that are not contradictory with Islam. 3- It's perfectly fine to be against Arabism and Arabization but recognize that is your individual choice. People who choose Arabism and Arabization have that legitimate right also. Forced Arabization is something everyone recognizes is wrong. Same goes for forced Somalization for a 'westernized' Somali It's a free country and I personally don't care what people do with regard to culture - however, Islam should be the defining basis for any culture especially that in Somalia.

^Whether hijab or jalaabiib is compulsory or part of Islam is a debate for another thread. I think there was one anti-Islamic reference in the original post - that referring to 'ninjas' etc. That should be deleted and correctly so. The rest was fine.

^lol

Originally posted by me: quote:Originally posted by ThePoint: I wish them well and inshallah I hope they will reunite willingly with the rest of the country.?! The point who is this 'they'? I as a Northerner have a say in this and in my opinion the secession is wrong, are you saying that my opinion does not count? And why should I or the likes of me wish the secessionists well, while they are clearly thinking about their interest alone, should I not think of my interest as well? The issue is not up to the secessionists alone. It is up to all the stakeholders in the matter. So that would mean all of us Northerners in the first place, then all Somalis, then the region. Thinking that only one group has a say in this and that that group are the secessionists would be faulty and very dangerous for us all. 'They' are the people of Somaliland, northwest Somalia whatever you wanna call it. The point is you can disagree with secession and wish Somalis well. The other point is - debate that keeps coming back to the same hangups becomes futile and the wise person would agree to disagree :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Katrina: Excuse me but if Americans are to be embarrassed to exist then Somalis should all be embarrassed period. Lets not attack the average Americans for the comments of their goverment otherwise we Somali's should be embarrassed based on Siad Barre and the infamous successors that followed his footsteps. None of those Somali 'leaders' was elected. But half of the electorate voted whole-heartedly for Bush

^Nice pictures - but "'Nam" though? Are you a punk American GI or something? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by me: The point- on the issue of the million examples. It was a reply to Vikings comment on the adoption of Western culture by Somalis, There are million examples of cultural traits there where originally associated with Arabs that are now being introduced or are fully accepted as Somali customs. You don’t have to look far for it and if you can not see it then it means that you have accepted those customs as your own and no longer see them as ‘alien’. I don't understand this mindset at all. Throughout history various cultures have adopted both good and bad from other cultures. That is natural as long as it is by choice. If people have chosen to accept 'Arabic customs' as you put it - then this their choice - why decry that? Do you see the Italians lamenting the 'Chinese-ness' of pasta and noodles? No - they own it now - it's become part of Italian culture. PS - I asked you for specific examples which you have failed to provide

^Hasn't this sort of debate gone on too long on SOL? Doesn't there come a time where one says - I don't agree with secession but I wish them well and inshallah I hope they will reunite willingly with the rest of the country.?!

^LOL - doesn't he always seem to be caught off guard in the way he expresses himself? It almost seems he's in wonderment at how he became the President of the US. No minimum IQ needed

^or you can PM me with your thoughs:-!

^I hope this is not the extent of your coastal Somalia photo collection - that would be camera stingy indeed Otherwise - please keep them coming.

Originally posted by me: Viking your arguments on Somali culture are valid, however we can find another million examples of the Arabization of our culture. It is not a secret that there are forces that would like to see the Somali culture and language disappeared and replaced with an Arabized one. One of those groups is the group whose link I have posted in the previous post. Somali Youths opting for western culture are doing this by ‘choice’ and not because the West is interfering with out culture like the Arabs are under the disguise of Islam. I would love to see a few of the million examples of Arabization of Somalia by outsiders. And please don't posit any examples where groups or individuals have chosen to adopt aspects of Arab culture.

Originally posted by Northerner: ^^Just left blighty (couldnt stand the place) bought the book at Heathrow and got straight into it much to the annoyance of the passenger next to me when i kept the light on during the flight The title of the book, only half of me which he goes into at the start of the book is so true. Its like we live double lives. When at work and when out of work we lead different lives. I hardly ever discussed my ethnicity with people at work and i certainly didnt lead their lifestyle to discuss on a monday morning. Are Somalis double agents? Double agents? I'm not so sure about that phrase - it's more like a different private life given religion and culture. I guess it also depends on the individuals you work with. If you're working with evangelical Christians - the differential in one's private life is smaller than if you're working with a group of swingers. And there is a difference with regard to Somali/Muslim male and his female counterpart. As a male - ppl see you as another 'black guy' whereas a female with a hijab is a distinctly different entity and thus her private life is naturally different from that of her co-workers. I'll pick up the book on this side of the Atlantic when it comes out in the library. I do wonder though - for a non-practising Muslim like the author - how much of his writing on Muslim perceptions is really authentic? Perhaps I'm just being a bstard

^I can't figure out whether he did this to save his own skin or if he is sincere. Questions will always remain

Originally posted by me: Atleast he made modern Turkey what it is. The army in Turkey protects teh country according to Ataturks doctrine. All the people in Turkey have the same rights. He has modernized Turkey, built a strong army, regained terretories lost by the incompetant sultans (Cyprus). He has fought the Arabization of Turkey and made the Turkish language the main language in Turkey. He also opted for the latin script instead of the arabized script. He dealt with the Armenian sepratists. He industralized Turkey. Without Ataturk, Turkey would have disintegrated, they would havebeen colonized and the Turks would not be who they are. You will not find one Turk today who hates Ataturk. Modern Turkey is not simply the product of Ataturk. The Turks were a bunch of nomads before they embraced Islam and Islam allowed them to build the groundwork for the rather sophisticated Ottoman empire. This in turn established the foundation of the modern Turkish state which Ataturk used as a foundation to introduce his reforms. Not sure about the arabization business since the Ottoman empire controlled Arab lands till the end of the 1st World War. As to an arabized script - I don't think that makes one Arabic. Similarly we can hardly say that Somalia's latin script makes it westernized etc. As to no Turk having a bad thing to say re Ataturk - I'm not sure. There must be some practicing Muslims in that country - and the man who banned the hijab can hardly be the hero that you claim he is.

^Ataturk is a poor role model. He was a Muslim hating drunkard who had little self-respect.

^Well we know she has one ugly mind

Originally posted by Viking: The spread of AIDS and other VD's is in relation to the level of promiscuity in a society. Sub-Saharan counties are suffering the most because promiscuity is very much prevalent and even encouraged in their "macho-culture". In most sub-Saharan countries, it is frowned upon to use a condom because it is seen to rob men of their pleasure. In many cases, there is also another factor, alcohol. Alcohol impairs a human's judgement and after leaving the pub, club, bar etc late at night with a stranger they met, most are drunk and don't remember or bother to protect themselves. Interesting analysis Viking - but I couldn't disagree more with the statement in this quote that Sub-saharan Africans are more 'promiscous' etc. That is total rubbish. These Africans are no more promiscous than Europeans or Americans or what have you. What is different is the abject lack of education and health infrastructure. That is what has led to the present infection rates.

^I mean Pham

^Who is this dog who tries to masquerade as someone even remotely cognizant of the Somali scene? :mad:

Originally posted by Socod_badne: quote:Originally posted by Nur: Socod Badane You write: " Now, is it your position that the prevelance of AIDS is direct result of promiscuousness? I can prove to you otherwise" Please do, I am eagerly waiting. Here is a study which flies in the face of conventional wisdom. Among it's eye-catching findings include: equal rate of infection between muslim majority nations and Western Europe. If it's your conviction that AIDS infection rates reflect the promiscuousness of a society then you got your work cut out explaining away why traditionally conservative Islamic societies seem to have same infection rates as their European counterparts. AIDS and STDs do come as a result of the level of promisciousness of a society. However, if you have the awareness and the health infrastructure you can readily prevent the natural consequences(AIDS and STDs) of your promisciousness. It is amazing that HIV rates are as low as they are in Muslim countries given the huge gap in awareness/education and health infrastructure vis-a-vis Europe. It is one of the few positive aspects of the Islamic world of late.