Ducaqabe, You smarmy you! Why do you never cease to disappointment heh? Always whipping up plenty of dust and hoopla over extraneous issues, obfuscating, stalling, evading but never actually addressing point-blank questions put to you. I didn't insinuate anything about your family. It was only hypothetical case designed to see if you actually will do what you say you believe. I contend its all posturing and no substance. So I ask you again: hypothetically speaking if your own immediate family members (mother, siblings etc) were 'proven' beyond shadow of a doubt to have commited adultery would you stone them to death as Sharia Law demands? Ibtisaam, Actually I don't have plenty of time. I got 25 page review paper on Gene Therapy due tomorrow and I haven't even got started yet. I just manage my time more efficiently. Ahura, BOOOOOOOOO! Where is the Quranic verse that proscribes different punishments for fornication and adultery? If you can't then will you admit that Allah's strict instructions have been changed? Don't disappoint me Ahura. Viking, Stop pus*yfooting, you haven't substantively addressed any of what I've said. BTW, nice attack but up the wrong hill! I don't reject what prophet (Scw) said or did.

Originally posted by Rahima: and ignore SB (you’ll soon enough realize why). Says the mendacious one. At least keep one face, will ya?

Originally posted by Jimcaale: Now that SB mentioned adultery, the court would have to bring four witnesses who saw the act with their naked eyes. So, Jimcaale, would kill your female family members (mother, aunt, sisters etc) if caught commiting adultery since that is what Allah said (according to you)? No pus*yfooting around, shoot straight from the hip. Yes or no.

Originally posted by Khayr: MashaAllah, Despite all the efforts that the world's leading stooges have put into 'liberalizing' Afghanistanistaan, this still occurs-ALHAMDULILLAH. The majority of afghanis still have respect for the Shariah and unlike some on here, wouldn't DARE to question its authority. So, Kheyr, would you kill your female family members (mother, aunt, sisters, wife etc) if caught commiting adultery since that is what Allah said (according to you)? No pus*yfooting around, shoot straight from the hip. Yes or no. If you leave ISLAM and become a Christian or anything else, you become an Apostate and there is no ambiguity about it. Except no where in the Quran does Allah permit you or anyone to declare who's apostate and who's not. Further, once again, Allah doesn't proscribe death for apostates. Not in the Quran. Islam says when the Quran and Hadihs disagree, Quran always wins.

Originally posted by Viking: Socod_badne, So all 1.2 billion around the globe should find a way to move to the four countries that [claim to] practise Sharia Law or else they are against Sharia Law itself? Is such your reasonning? :eek: Why move? What's stopping Somalis from establishing Sharia law RIGHT NOW? In fact somalis found the will and moral rectitude to replace anti-sharia law government with a mix of anarchy and semi-autonemous regions where Sharia doesn't establish the order of the day. Go figure! Do you think the laws in the Qur'an are only to be applied in homes and not in governments? [/qb] Religion is private matter and I answered this question eons ago. It belongs in the home unless widely agreed on. I'm against imposing one man's believes on another. Allah has forbidden the consuption and sale and of alcohol and IF the society (environment) pressures the govt to allow the establishment of a brewery and permission to sell it in shops then the people will be following their own whims/desires while ignoring Islamic Law. Don't you agree? Muslims disobey Allah and go against his injections in the Quran all the time. For example, calling for the more macabre, bloody punishment for adultery (lapidation) instead of 100 lashes. Isn't that following their own desires too? Got a bit of a conundrum there, don't you think? I'll leave you to figure it out.

Originally posted by Ahura: That sounds absolute. Are you absolutely sure? Yes and here is my reasoning. Lets say there is traffic intersection which sees an average of 2 accidents per month. Then one month the accident rate spikes to 10 per month. To be followed by doubling of accident rate, now its 20 per month. What reasonable conclusion can you draw from such scenario? Wouldn't you think to yourself that something is wrong with this traffic intersection? Same with Sharia Law. If only handfull of countries 'malpractice' it, then we can dismiss them as anamolies. If 6 or so, again we can at least tolerate them. But if EVERY place Sharia law is practiced we deem as less than ideal or downright impalatable than we have strong evidence to believe the problem is with Sharia law. There is only one logical/reasonable conclusion and that is: what you see is what you get or Sharia law as practiced IS Sharia Law. You cannot make comparisons if you don't have the necessary information. It all depends on what you're comparing. LoL. The punishment for proven adultery ( a married person sleeping with someone other than their wife/husband ) is death. The 100 lashes is punishment for proven fornication (an unmarried person engaging in pre-marital sex), NOT adultery. *Duh* Where? Or are you re-writting what Allah enjoined? Are you saying you know better than Allah? There is no distinction between adultery and fornication in the Quran. Same punishment for both is enjoined in the Quran. Again, produce the verse. Here is what Allah said about adultery: 024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. PICKTHAL: The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment. SHAKIR: (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

Originally posted by The Flipmode: Anyone who doesn't accept what Allah has revealed whether it was meant for 6th Century or the 21st century , is Not a muslim.It is either you are a muslim or a non-muslim.Fullstop So, Flipmode, would kill your female family members (mother, aunt, sisters etc) if caught commiting adultery since that is what Allah said (according to you)? No pus*yfooting around, shoot straight from the hip. Yes or no.

Originally posted by codetalker: However, do not miss the gravity with which the Noble Qur'an deals with evil act of zina' itself. In the translation of the ayah , Allah SWT says: “(And the servants of the Beneficent) are those who do not invoke another god with Allah, and who do not…commit fornication/adultery , for whoever does that shall receive the penalty; for him shall the torment be doubled on the day of resurrection, and therein he shall abide forever, disgraced, save him who repents and believes and does good works; those, Allah shall change their misdeeds into good works. And Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate.†(Al-Furqan: 68-70) So far so good and I'm still right. No where did Allah enjoin death for adultery in the Quran. “Adultery in Islam is one of the most heinous and deadliest of sins. Its enormity can be gauged from the fact that it has often been conjoined in the Qur’an with the gravest of all sins: shirk or associating partners with Allah." Still no stoning to death for adultery. While you're here concerning yourself with the "death by stoning" punishment on Earth, you seem to miss the eternal punishment for zina' in the Hereafter (when it REALLY matters). One, because I live on earth and people are losing or in threat of losing their for this unjust punishment that Allah himself disagrees with. Second, stop introducing ad hoc arguements into the discussion. The after world is completely inconsequetial to this discussion. I know you're grasping for any straw man you can lay your hand on but this is pathetic. I ask you: What earthly punishment could surmount to an eternal double punishment in the Hereafter? None! None! None! I don't know. But answer me this: what's the punishment for editing the Quran like as in the case with the punishment of adultery. Allah said 100 lashes, muslims replaced it with death by stoning.

Originally posted by MC Xamar: wasn't Somalia plunged into CIVIL WAR and most of it's displaced citizens didn't really have a choice in which country they would take asylum? Good thing you mentioned that... what was the civil about that initially forced out so many somalis? It certainly wasn't about establishing the Sharia Law! The Sharia law was never a priority for Somalis. Hope it stays that way. And aren't some of us (including myself) born in non-Muslim countries and can't just pack up and move to Muslim countries whenever we want? Who is stopping you from leaving for Sharia Law country? Tell me what law or force is physically contraining you? You say you can't leave and that is because you don't want to give up what the West gives for what Sharia has for you. The trade off in life style, living standards, health, education, employment, justice, peace, equality etc is not worth it. That is the reality, like it or hate it. But since the reality of your predicament is too painful to swallow you perform absurd mental calisthenics like above among others to delude yourself so as to feel reassured that your hypocracy is palatable. You're welcome to it. Beware though some of us have firmer grip on reality and aren't shy in letting you know about it. Your argument that I have rejected Sharia Law based upon where I live is baseless and actually quite st^upid. I couldn't give a toss of what you think of my arguement. It's what you do that earns you what you're called. You are what you do NOT what you think. If you're convinced of Sharia Law's divinity then stop living under system that consigns it inferior status!

Originally posted by HornAfrique: Are you retarded (not insulting here, merely using the medical condition of mental retardation)? I don't know but I've been told my IQ is in the low 20s. What's yours? There is so much inconsistency in that statement, it's amazing people have the stomach to respond and keep up a debate with you. No matter what your colleagues, Makalajabti, JB, and Castro, say or do to legitimaze your nac-nac, you will never be taken seriously. There is no discrepancy in what I've said because if it was you would've leapt on it and tore it apart like pitbull. Instead you grouch appearing like enraged bull charging through China shop. Pity you! Is Shariah Law not the Law of Allah as recieved from his being in the Qur'an? No. There is nothing Godly about beheading disbelievers (or others for that matter) or lapidation. Maybe you think there is, good for you. I disagree. One question for you: why do you subordinate Allah's laws embodied in Sharia Law as you claim to Western laws by LIVING under them? And what was you said about 'inconsistancies?' I can hear ya, speak up! Since, you asserted, that to be a Muslim you have to believe in Allah, isn't one aspect of believing in Allah believing his words and verdicts? I'll help you just this one time although I suspect it'll go over your head. I assert the Sharia Law is not divinely ordained. To "prove" that I just have to cite just ONE Sharia punishment that is contradicted by what Allah ordained in Quran. There are several but the most notable is the punishment of adultery. Sharia law proscribes stoning to death. While Allah delineated in the Quran only 100 lashes. Since in Islam the Quran trumps everything else, we can conclude that the Sharia is not Allah's laws. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION!

Originally posted by Viking: First of all, how am I rejecting Shari'a Law? By choosing to live in the West over Sharia Law run countries. Secondly, given the right to vote democratically, almost all countries with a large Muslim population will vote for a theocracy. Who cares what they'd vote for? Democracies, almost all of them, weren't voted in but violently or coercively imposed, often accompanied by revolutions, social upheavels, civil wars, conquests etc. What's stopping muslims from rising up and overthrowing their current governments? Nothing. The only logical reading of that is establishing Sharia Law is not a priority. Are you saying that the Divine Laws in the Qur'an are there just for our amusement? No but then that is not what I was commenting on, was it? You asked me to show what DOESN'T exist -- irrevocable dependence between Sharia Law and being a muslim. In fact Islam be it the Quran or even the Sunnah says nothing about Sharia Law militating faith. To be a muslim you have to believe Allah and profess the Shahada. So you asked me to provide evidence/show what doesn't exist, I can't. What do you think Law should be based upon? Our whims, what we deem permissible or fobidden? FYI, laws are NEVER based on our whims. Even for nonbelievers. Rather they're imposed on us by our environment and mitigating circumstances.

Originally posted by Viking: Socod_badne and makalajabti, Are you against Sharia Law? Yes I'm against Sharia Law. Can one call him-/herself a Muslim and still support secular law over Sharia Law? If most muslims call themselves muslims while simultaneously rejecting sharia law (that includes YOU as well), then I don't see why not. If you say so, can you show how Islam supports this? No because there's no dependence between being a muslim and Sharia Law. The link is purely fictitious, plucked from thin air. One can't provide 'evidence' to support a conceptual mirage.

Originally posted by Cara: quote:Originally posted by The Flipmode: Now let us switch the topic to the circumcision on Boys It is another FGM... Do you know what the "F" in "FGM" stands for? Of course he does, you're not giving due credit here. F stands for: Flipmode.

Originally posted by Najib_TheGtreat: Now I remember reading in another forum that think this woman is very clever and articulate well she isn’t she is dump who is out of her depth. She is bright and articulate... you know that to be true. What's more much of what she said has strong ring of truth to it. So spare me (and us) the charade, will ya? Welcome to SOL.

Originally posted by Ahura: Not really. It may only point to the malpractice of Sharia Law in Muslim countries, rather than the practice of it. If that makes sense. It doesn't make any sense and I tell you why? The only Sharia Law is the one practiced by Afghanistan, S. Arabia among others. Conversely, the REAL Sharia Law the one you and others exalt so much... the perfect one, benchmark for judging how Sharia should be practiced is pure fantasy. Name me ONE country where Sharia Law is being practiced as really intended in your view? If you can't, then it doesn't exist. And Sharia Law is what is practiced by several countries around the world.

Originally posted by ibtisam: ^^which one dear, i have so many? one cat out of the bag at a time... the last one was too overwhelming, still reeling from it.

Originally posted by codetalker: ^Yo, you need to separate Sharia Law (as ordained upon mankind by Almighty Allah SWT) and the Sharia Law being practiced in a country under the military occupation of non-Muslims! That's just dumb suggestion. Its like saying Karl Marx & Engel's Communist manifesto should be judeged separate from what communists did in its name. Sharia Law is what is practiced. We can NEVER trully judge anything if not by what it engenders when practiced by HUMANS. The Sharia Law you talk about, the one that is divorced from the actions of muslims who practice it, is pure fantasy. It doesn't exist. And your legality arguement is pure quibble. Don't worry about where I live or why I choose to live here. Where you choose to live matters in this particular case because by living in the West you ARE saying something is WRONG with Sharia Law. It shows contradiction as well a gaping gulf between what you say and what you do. Hence, completely partinent. Stick to the topic or save your nacnac for those who give a f*&^ as to what crap you type up next. Like a true coward, cut and run.

Originally posted by codetalker: ^ Nacnac-badane. Or so the Legend goes. Nope, just penchant for the truth. If you read the entire thing, I asked a question. this is what you said: Nothing wrong with Sharia Law. Something wrong with how its used by "some" folks, sometimes. That sounds unreserved endorsement of Sharia law by YOU. If nothing is wrong with Sharia law, why don't YOU live in Sharia law run country. There are plenty of them to choose from. Be a man and own up! Stop squirming. I don't think Sharia Law can be applied, legally , in a country under non-Muslim occupation. What the hell is that suppose to mean? Sharia Law IS the law in Afghanistan. Under aegis of Sharia Law, the Afghan government will be put to death a man for leaving Islam. And you dwell on legality! Again, a leisure at your call and beck all thanks to living in a non-Sharia law country. Your life is not on the line, your welfare is not at risk.

Originally posted by Biixi: No concrete evidence has emerged to support it or render as forgery. How can there be support for what doesn't exist -- the Protocols of Zion? Can you provide support for the claim of flying pigs? It's not possible! The only support that is possible about the existance of something is for the affirmative claim. In this case: the Protocols of Zion are true (excluding forged documents). The proponents of this sly and defamatory claim should be able to provide just SOME support. So far none have turned up, therefore the Protocols of Zion are fake. Natural state of things is nonexistance until proven/shown otherwise.

Originally posted by codetalker: Nothing wrong with Sharia Law. Something wrong with how its used by "some" folks, sometimes. Nothing wrong with Sharia law? Says the man who made the volitional decision to live in a non-Sharia country. FYI, to the man who will be killed, there's plenty wrong with Sharia law. But we won't hear from him. That is because he's to be silenced soon. Ibtisaam, There is no confusion over this issue. In fact it is black and white and making a decision is straigh forward affair for those with clear conscience. A man is to be excuted for disbelieve not for any crime he commited or any harm he brought to society. It's clear violation of his human rights and affront to Allah who placed the life of man at the pinnacle of his creation. How can faith be strengthened if you kill the very same people you want to join in? Killing him or making disbelieve a crime in Sharia Law run state nullifies the faith of all its inhabitants. As people will be believers only because of fear of death or other punishments. The great news is that no one wants to live under sharia law. Give an afghan or any muslim a choice between freedom, peace, democracy, justice, human rights and Sharia law, the former will be opted for most of the times without hesitation.

Originally posted by The Flipmode: When Equating ISLAM with terrorism, do this people ever Read what the Quraan says about Terrorism They don't have to and honestly can ill afford to. They must ACT and make decisions in the nick of time. What the Quran contains is meaningless if not affably acted upon. But when the Bin Laden group flies planes into buildings full of innocent civilians in the name of Islam and the Quran, you kinda leave them with no room to maneuver. Their reaction is predictable and very human. Unlike you and I who have the luxury of speculating reasons and culprits, those in places of power and under attack (real or percieved) must act upon the available evidence and ephemeral conditions.

Originally posted by ibtisam: really, i beg to differ, and i have evidence. well well, the secret is finally out of the bag. busted!!!

Originally posted by Katrina: Men are infalliable. You prolly meant to say fallible (right?) but some people on these boards wouldn't disagree with that; ie being reproach like Islamic prelates.

Originally posted by bilan: it is really amazing that some muslims are arguing the right to excute murtad, No arguement here. Do you agree apostates/converters should be killed? Yes or no will do. do not all developed western nations reserve the right to execute their citizens who turn against them,how many people are executed during WWII for treason Treason is a political crime, murtad is an act of conscience. Remember there is no compulsion in religion! You can't force people; when you do those believers are only believers out of fear.

Originally posted by ThePoint: Utter bullshid. Swedish and Dutch 'liberalism' and 'tolerance' was and is a fake one. This liberalism only applies to those who think and act like them - but if you refuse to do that - you're a damn foreigner! Ok, now back that up with evidence. I'm not aware of any laws in Sweden or Holand that discriminate against immigrant. Since you claim you do, please back it up. Murders and death threats occur all the time in US and Canada - but you don't see them blaming an entire community. No they don't. Van Goh was killed in Holland, not in America. A. Hirsi is in hiding in Holland, not American. The firebrand Imaams of Britian who preach ineffable inflammatory sermons/speechs are in Britian not America. Europe in general failed to assimilate its muslim population and now its paying the price. And this bastion of 'liberalism' produced Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh - both nasty, anti-Muslim racists - one of which got elected to Parliament. Next I assume you will tell me that Austria's Jorg Haider is a cuddly puppy. Let me understand this: you're suggesting it is OK to kill anyone you disagree with? If there is a truly admirable liberalism towards immigrants - it is that practiced in Canada and the US. Agreed.