Salahh, Originally posted by Salahh: If an individual has a right to be free, and this in itself is a divine right, why wasn't slavery abolished as soon as Islam was introduced? How can two men be equal if one is a slave? What would happen to a slave if he chose not to co-operate? Slavery wasn't abolished immediately probably because it would have had a massive impact on the economy of the society. The conditions were changed immediately though, they were treated more humanely and given more rights and more emphasis was put on the virtues of freeing or marrying a slave. Look at the lives of people like Salman al-Farsi (a Persian) and Bilaal ibn Rabaah (an Abyssinian) to see the role slaves played in Islam. Slavery was eventually eradicated and abolished much faster in Arabia than it was anywhere else in the world.

Salahh, Originally posted by Salahh: People should have the right to worship by choice and religion should never factor into laws made by man. Also, when it comes to Arabism and Islam, I think they are so intertwined that most Muslims are loosing sight of their religion. This remark implies that Islam is not a choice, the Qur'an is clear about this... "Let there be no compulsion in religion: The Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Al-Baqara 2:256) What is Arabism and what makes you think it too intertwined with Islam beyond recognition? Does the Islam of Indonesia (the most populous Muslim country), Malaysia, Pakistan, Nigeria etc support this claim? Originally posted by Salahh: Somalis should have the right to practice their religion but should also keep their culture instead of adapting to the Arabian culture...So, should this mean that we should adapt to their culture too? I think I can be just a good a muslim by abiding to my culture and following the Quran. What Ataturk did for the turks is what we need our leaders to do for us. If we all practised secularism, the world would be a better place. The irony is that people have no problem when Somalis take to western cultures but constantly complain about Arabization of Somalis. Is it because they feel the western culture superior to the Arab culture? In 9/10 Somali weddings, the bride wears a white dress and the groom a suit or a tuxedo and have a multi-storey cake in front of them. Almost Somali all youth have a western dresscode, listen to western music, are up-to-date with the latest Holywood movies. Somali youth also have memorised the latest hip-hop lyrics but can hardly read (or understand) a line of Somali gabay, where are the voices of dissent? Unfortunately this lamenting of Aribisation of the Somalis is often nothing more than a disguised enmity towards Islam. What Ataturk did is opt for a westernisation (instead of modernisation - see Japan for comparison) of a Muslim Turkey. He chose latin alphabets instead of Arabic and thought western culture to be superior to Turkish and Arabic culture. Ataturk would probably be proud of his legacy today; women are not allowed to wear hijab in public institutions of education and Turkey is doing its best to please the Europeans in order to join the EU and be part of the Christian block. Turkey also allows the Israeli army to use its airspace for military exercises, this prepares the Zionists in the destruction of Muslim lives as we see today in Lebanon and Gaza. Iran took an opposite direction after the Revolution and they are today, unlike the Turks, doing their best to help Muslims like they are doing for Hamas and Hezbollah in fighting the oppression of the Israeli war machine. Iran is also being isolated because they refuse to acknowledge the illegal state of Israel. Any Muslim who promotes secularism does not understand Islam for the law of man can not be deemed superior (or more humane) to the Laws of Allah SWT. Plus, secularism is often not a choice in Muslim countries because we have seen how the countries that opt for a thecracy are treated by the west (Algeria and Iran are good examples).

Nothing fishy! They had very little evidence against AC Milan but loads on the other three teams. Especially Juve where Moggi's phone was tapped and a lot of evidence attainned. Moggi even locked up one referee and his assistants in a room and left with the keys because he didn't like how they did their job. AC Milan got 44 point reduction from last seasons run which means they are out of Champions League next season. They also have a -15 point deduction in next years campaign which would make it difficult to qualify for the CL and impossible to win the league. The decision against Juve was very peculiar (Serie B and -30 points), why not just take them to Serie C straight away?

Red Corna clip featuring among others...Brigadier Early ambaye ni Msomali wa Kenya, anajua kuongea na makauzi...

This is a chapter in the Qur'an that asks those who deny Allah SWT questions. It challenges them with various things and when listenning to it one is left with no option but to nod in agreement. It asks of the non-believer... 57. It is We Who have created you: why will ye not witness the Truth? 58. Do ye then see?- The (human Seed) that ye throw out,- 59. Is it ye who create it, or are We the Creators? 60. We have decreed Death to be your common lot, and We are not to be frustrated 61. from changing your Forms and creating you (again) in (forms) that ye know not. 62. And ye certainly know already the first form of creation: why then do ye not celebrate His praises? 63. See ye the seed that ye sow in the ground? 64. Is it ye that cause it to grow, or are We the Cause? 65. Were it Our Will, We could crumble it to dry powder, and ye would be left in wonderment, 66. (Saying), "We are indeed left with debts (for nothing): 67. "Indeed are we shut out (of the fruits of our labour)" 68. See ye the water which ye drink? 69. Do ye bring it down (in rain) from the cloud or do We? 70. Were it Our Will, We could make it salt (and unpalatable): then why do ye not give thanks? 71. See ye the Fire which ye kindle? 72. Is it ye who grow the tree which feeds the fire, or do We grow it? 73. We have made it a memorial (of Our handiwork), and an article of comfort and convenience for the denizens of deserts. 74. Then celebrate with praises the name of thy Lord, the Supreme! Then follows a Mighty oath and an admonition to those who declare the Qur'an false... 75. Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,- 76. And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if ye but knew,- 77. That this is indeed a Qur'an Most Honourable, 78. In Book well-guarded, 79. Which none shall touch but those who are clean: 80. A Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. 81. Is it such a Message that ye would hold in light esteem? 82. And have ye made it your livelihood that ye should declare it false? The denier is again challenged about his assumed might and independence from Allah SWT and is asked... 83. Then why do ye not (intervene) when (the soul of the dying man) reaches the throat,- 84. And ye the while (sit) looking on,- 85. But We are nearer to him than ye, and yet see not,- 86. Then why do ye not,- If you are exempt from (future) account,- 87. Call back the soul, if ye are true (in the claim of independence)?

Darqawi, I noticed that the article was written two years ago, things have changed in Palestine and the PLO is no longer in charge. The vast majority of people are for an Islamic state, the obstacles seem to be Israel and the West. Does the author feel the same way regarding Palestine? There are [as the author stated] no cholars who openly sanction suicide bombing, but does this necessarily mean that they have links to the Isma'ili? Interesting read nevertheless.

Originally posted by Socod_badne: Attenuating factors like decent public health system, public awareness and education etc etc. The West is best example. Here is a society where casual sexual encounters with strangers is not too uncommon and yet has warded off the spread of AIDS to alarming levels. All in all, the take away message from this report is this: AIDS doesn't discriminate on religion, race, political idealogy etc... everyone is vulnerable! The bleeding obvious...anyone who believes that AIDS discriminates religion or race needs virology 101. You say that AIDS doesn't spread as much in western countries because of the health system, public awareness and education. Fair enough, I don't see anyone arguing against that. But why is AIDS not as rampant in Muslim countries as it is in other poor nations? Do you have a theory?

Socod_badne, Perhaps this would help a bit... 1. Knowledge of God (Taqdeer): Taqdeer is another name for Ilm-e-Ilaahi (Knowledge of God). Now God knows everything before hand, which also includes our future. Suppose God knows that Mary will get good marks in the spot test but Daniel will not. Now God's knowledge cannot be incorrect. Therefore Mary is pre-determined to get good marks and Daniel is pre-determined to get bad marks. Their results are already determined whether they work hard for the test or ignore it. The same can be applied to sin or piety. A person commits a murder because it was already written in God's knowledge; a person helps a poor sick lady because it was already written in his Taqdeer. But this view fails to answer the question that why should a sinful person be punished and a pious person be rewarded on the day of judgment when they were not doing it out of free will? One can go further and say why should a murderer be sentenced to death when it was actually not his doing, but the result of his Taqdeer, and why should Mary get a prize for getting good marks when it was actually her Taqdeer that did it?. It is true that God knows everything. He knew that John will make up his mind to murder his friend. But the question is 'Did John make up his mind to murder his friend because God knew it? or God knew it because John was to independently make up his mind to murder his friend? A couple of illustrations may help us answer the question. Let us imagine that white ants are eating away the wooden pillars of a shed. We can say, "Look ! This roof will fall down." Finally the roof falls down. The question is "Did the roof fall because we said so" or "We said so, because the roof was about to fall due to other factors?" If I drop a glass from the top floor of a high rise building, you would immediately predict that within a few seconds, the glass will crash on the ground. Did it crash because you predicted so? or it it that you said so because you knew it would so happen on the basis of your knowledge about falling bodies? These illustrations are only partially and incompletely analogous to the knowledge of God. Our knowledge, on the basis of which, we predicted that the shed will fall down or the glass will crash on the ground is learned and acquired knowledge. This knowledge was not acquired through any supernatural means. It is based on the study of physical bodies and laws of nature. God's knowledge about future is of a different nature. We have no understanding of God's ways. But one thing is certain. God knows that a certain individual would perform a certain act, but the individual would perform the act out of his will. God only knew it in advance. Therefore, if John murders his friend, he does that with his free will. Although it is correct that God already knew it. John has not murdered his friend because God knew it; rather God knew it because John was to murder his friend out of his free will. Therefore John should be held accountable for his act. 2. Nothing happens without God's will: It is true that God is the only effective force in the world. He has full control over the universe and not a single particle is beyond his command and control. However this does not mean that God is responsible for every evil in this world. Here a distinction between God's 'Sanction' and his 'Liking' must be understood. Everything that happens in the universe follows God's sanction or permission for it. Nothing can happen unless God allows it to happen. However, it does not necessary mean that He also likes whatever He sanctions. This world is a place where all men are being judged. Human actions are being watched and recorded for final judgment on the Day of Judgment. Since this life is a test period, men must have the freedom to choose between evil and good. God would not interfere with human choices, nor would manipulate them, because this would defeat the very purpose of a test. This world is like an examination hall. A supervisor passes by a student and finds that the student is writing down an incorrect reply to the question asked. Should the supervisor ignore this mistake or should he tell the student that he is not attempting the question correctly? Obviously, we think that the correct conduct of the supervisor entails that he should ignore the student's mistake. If the student is checked right during the examination, the very purpose of the examination is defeated. Similarly, God allows us to make moral choices at our will and does not interfere through angels and divine powers when we are pursuing an immoral path. Thus we create evil in the world by reckless behavior and by making wrong moral choices. God is not responsible for this evil. He has only permitted it, but surely, does not like it. 3. If man is free he can do anything Man is free to make up his mind and to build intentions to perform good or bad acts. He is free to wish, intend and plan - but he is not always free to implement his plans. To carry out our intentions, we need the cosmic harmony to go along with us. But the number of forces acting in this world may obstruct our plans and thwart them. Our frustrated designs (whether good or bad) show that the cosmic determinism does not necessarily go along with our intentions. Carrying out our good or bad intentions is often beyond our control. God's superimposed rule over everything fixes boundaries for possibilities open to us in the realm of carrying out actions. Through his power over everything, he plans and designs the universe. His plans clearly and unquestionable overrule ours. Thus, when it comes to human actions we must know that although we are not free to carry out our plans in life, but we are free to make up our mind to do anything . In other words, we are free to have an iraada (intention) but not free to implement it. But the final judgment is to be passed not on our ability to do something but to intend and strive to do it. We shall be punished or rewarded for something that we are free to choose. We would not be punished or rewarded for something that is beyond our control. We are perfectly free to choose and make up our minds to do something. If the intended action is good we would be rewarded, irrespective of the fact whether we are able to carry it out or not. The same is true of evil intentions and efforts also. 4. Environment Among other factors that affect our lives, the environment (family, peers, media, literature, society and state) is the most obvious. Religion does not argue whether the environment has any influence or not, and if it does affect our moral choices, to what extent can we resist or succumb to it. It however establishes a rule that we would only be held responsible to the extent that we were free to choose. The conscious or unconscious influences that might have shaped our choices would be accounted for in the hereafter. One would only be held responsible for his choices that he was perfectly free to make, and to such extent only. Source

Originally posted by Socod_badne: Take for instance a job interviewee who accepts 10 resumes from applicants and tells them to show up for formal interviews. Assuring them getting hired depends solely on how well their perform in the interview. However, before the interviews he vets the resumes and decides to cull half of the applicants. So prior to the interviews, he knows who he'll hire. The interviews still take place as scheduled, the outcome however remains immutable -- that which the interviewee already decided on. Idem Omniscient Creator. Before he creates anyone, he knows their ultimate fate. Sure, His creation have free will while they live their lifes but that free will can not change their ultimate fate privy to Allah prior to their creation. I can't be any more perspicuous. If you still disagree, lets agree to disagree. It's not about agreeing to disagree but about you refusing to understand or learn what Islam says about this matter. What this boils down to is how man is and how The Creator is, His Attributes. We only know what is in the past and see what is hapenning in the present but have no idea about what will happen in the future. Human beings are limited by the concept of time; Allah SWT is NOT like His creation and is therefore NOT limited by time like we are. For Him, there is NO PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE, all is apparent to Him. Therefore what you will do in 10 years is apparent to Him because he is not bound by physical laws (hence me telling you that He knows what YOU will do and doesn't mean chose it for you). Now take this into consideration and apply it to your analogy. Like I said a few times before, learn about the Attributes of Allah and try to understand the concept of free-will from an Islamic point of view. This will facilitate your understanding of this issue. Take a look at the following verses and ponder on what is said... Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another; That man can have nothing but what he strives for; That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight (Al-Najm 53:38-40) Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). (Al-Ra'd 13:11) Say: "With God is the argument that reaches home: if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all." (Al-An'am 6:149) Originally posted by Salafi_Online: The fact that Allah the almighty knows your ultimate end does not interfer with your choices. you are ultimately left to decide what to do, what to eat.etc. Allah's keeps tract of your decisions before you decide. This is what I've been trying to tell you all this time. If you understood the teachings of Islam then what is said would be very apparent.

Zizou is definately up there with the likes of Maradona and Pele but I think Canavarro, Pirlo or Gatusso desreved the golden ball more than Zizou.

The Point, I understand what you mean sxb. Some of what I wrote must have been lost before I pressed the send button. I initially wrote about the difference prophylaxis and retrovirals has made to the lives if AIDS victims living in the wealthier west as compared to Muslim countries and sub-Saharan Africa.

It's unfair to remember Zizou for only headbutting Materazzi; he did more than that...in 2000 when he was at Juve, he also headbutted a Hamburg player and got a five-match ban. You can take the maestro out the Marseille ghetto but you can't take the ghetto out of him

Nur, I understand what you are getting at but some conditions have to be met before hadd is imposed. A future islamic govt in Somalia has to put in place a social welfare system, a working healthcare and education system before cutting off limbs. Naden has a point when she says you have to drain the dirty water to get rid of the mosquitoes. The US has people of ethnic minority and from poor backgrounds populating their prisons. If their system was more socialist than capitalist, perhaps the situation would have been different. Many forget too that the prison system in USA is a business just like any other in the country. Just wondering, hypothetically, let's say Somalia perhaps 50 years down the line, is an Islamic state using hadd and has managed to achieve a relatively high level of technological advancement. If the thief's hand is amputated, can he be allowed to take it with him in a pack of ice to the nearest surgeon for re-attachment? It sounds funny but what if there's a loophole and no consensus among the scholars? Socod_badne, If Shari'a Law is applied well, you probably wouldn't have any problem with it. The problem is that the examples that come to mind are Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria et al. Shari'a Law is there to protect the people not to harm them and if the procedures are dealt with fairly then it would be welcomed by the population. I know you think it sounds idealistic, with all right, remember that the Occidentals do their utmost best to thwart any upcoming Islamic state and leave the sorry ones as examples they can point to to win brownie points. The spread of AIDS and other VD's is in relation to the level of promiscuity in a society. Sub-Saharan counties are suffering the most because promiscuity is very much prevalent and even encouraged in their "macho-culture". In most sub-Saharan countries, it is frowned upon to use a condom because it is seen to rob men of their pleasure. In many cases, there is also another factor, alcohol. Alcohol impairs a human's judgement and after leaving the pub, club, bar etc late at night with a stranger they met, most are drunk and don't remember or bother to protect themselves. The link you gave doesn't say much and contains no statistics. They refer to other pages and the important ones require membership to access. If the level of AIDS can be the same in the west as it is in Muslim countries (very low as compared to East Asia and sub-Saharan Africa) the levels must be quite good keeping in mind the fact that most Muslim countries are very poor and do not have the as is the case in wealthier western countries. Imagine how well they would have done if they had the health budget of the USA, France, Germany or Switzerland. Plus, putting some Muslim countries in their statistcs might be a bit unfair since they have a sizeable non-Muslim population, countries like... -Syria has almost 20% non-Muslim -Nigeria has 50% non-Muslim -Ethiopia has almost 50% non-Muslim -Sudan has 30% non-Muslim -Albania has 30% non-Muslim -Lebanon has 40% non-Muslim etc etc. So the kind of statistics employed can not be completely fair to the Muslims countries. Look at this map of Africa and if you know your geography well then you'll notice a distinct difference between Muslim and non-Muslim countries when it comes to HIV prvalence. I'm not telling you Muslims are immune to AIDS but they are less affected by the disease because promiscuity levels are lower mainly because of Islam. Their awareness (or education levels) are not any higher than other poor countries so it must be their faith that helps them.

There are some lectures on this site. http://www.muslimaccess.com/audio/index.asp Some of the sites out there are a bit dodgy and with a keen eye you can tell. There was a very popular militant website, www.jihadunspun.com Turns our it was run by the CIA (the word spread and they have changed it to www.jusonenews.com and their slogan reminds one of FOX News). There are also those which have innocent looking names like www.thequran.com or www.islameyat.com and when you open them you realise that it is actually promoting Christianity.

All that matters is how much you are ready to compromise. If you are going to argue about movies, clothes, tv-shows etc then your effort should be directed in learning about what is important in life. Liking the same things (careers or subjects) is not important; if you are a scientist and he is an interior designer, the contrast is healthy as you have a good chance of learning about each others trade. As long as you are flexible and respectful, then it wouldn't matter what your [difference of] interests in life are. Key things - compromise, flexibilty, patience and respect.

Socod_badne, He writes his deeds, time of his death, means of his livelihood, and whether he will be wretched or blessed (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into his body. This Hadith says the same thing as I was saying and nowhere does it say "man has no control over his destiny". The Hadith shows you Allah's Omniscience and the actions that are being written are what YOU ARE GOING TO DO (because Allah has Knowledge of everything) and not WHAT YOU ARE PROGRAMMED TO DO. He's writting down what you will choose and not what He has chosen for you, it is important to know the difference. Remember the definition of 'predestine' is to IMPOSE a direction or tendency on beforehand. Your actions are not imposed on you but are bourne but out of free-will. It feels we are running in circles here, you saying the same thing over and over and I am giving the same answers. All this would digestable if you went back to basics and understand the Islamic view on this issue.

The list is crap. He has Javier Saviola for Argentina but not Roman Riquelme, Redondo or Pablo Aimar who are better players. He also had El Hadji Diouf for Africa but not Sameul Eto'o (3 times African Player of the year), Kanu (APY '96 and '99), Kalusha Bwalya (APY 1988) or Thomas Nkono (APY '79 and '82).

Originally posted by Socod_badne: But that hardly is comparable to omniscient creator . I think you're completely overlooking the latter part in bold. It's not the pre-knowledge of future events that questions human free will but that omniscient creator at question is the selfsame creator that CREATES the subjects supposedly possessing free will -- ie Humans. Can you not see that for omniscient creator, foresight and creating our destiny are the same thing? When Allah creates us, he also creates our destiny. And that destiny is immutable. You seem stuck on the same points that I keep explaining, perhaps we are being held back by semantics. omniscient - having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight - possessed of universal or complete knowledge destiny 1 : a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency predetermine - to IMPOSE a direction or tendency on beforehand predestine - [in this context] settle beforehand You are a Muslim so you obviously believe in The Day of Reckonning. What would this Day serve if all our actions are predetermined (imposed and not out of free-will)? Why create humans only to punish them for deeds they couldn't avoid doing? As a Muslim you have to believe that you will be held responsible for your actions; are you then telling me that we are just following patterns set long before we were born 9meaning we are NOT masters of our destiny and that our deeds are predetermined) or are you questionning Allah's Omniscience [His infinite Knowledge])? Which one is it? It is important that you answer this otherwise further discussion will be futile. Originally posted by Socod_badne: Other things render Allah unjust like him being merciful. But is that mean he is unjust? I think not. If you think God is merciful, you too would be saying he's unjust. Are you? How could a Muslim ask whether God is merciful? These are the kind of remarks that make your position look all too shifty. Originally posted by Socod_badne: I can't but at least I admit that much. The rest is work in progress. If you can't reconcile your current position with your faith then I would recommend for you to start from the basics. The thorough understanding of the Kalimah, the pillars of Imaan and Ihsan. Originally posted by Socod_badne: Refer to above. For an omniscient creator, pre-knowledge of our future actions and creating our destiny mean the same thing. Again, if you start from basics you would understand what is being said here. JB, Tack vännen for ditt bemödande. Jag har under hela tiden förstått vad Socod_badne har sagt men problemet ligger i att hans kunskap i Islam är bristande. Därför har han haft svårighet att begripa vad jag sagt under diskussionen. Om jag hade denna diskussion med en icke-Muslim så själklart skulle jag anpassa infallsvinkeln till hans livsåskådning. (Translation: Thank you for your efforts pal. I have always understood what Socod_badne has been saying but the problem lies in his [lack of] knowledge in Islam. This is the reason why he has had difficulty understanding what I have said during thid discussion. If I had this discussion with a non-Muslim, then naturally I would tailor the discussion towards his outlook on life.) Nu ska jag driva lite med din PC översättning från ovan lol, hoppas det inte gör något... Some of what you really were saying seem to have been lost in translation. You said and translated... "10de juli 2006 Kl: 21:30 jag ska tafsa på en Amelia som är 8 år yngre än mig och får det på käften," (July 10th 2006 at 21:30 , i'm gonna handle an Amelia who is younger than me 8 years clumsily and get beaten) The real translation should be... ...on July 10th at 21:30 I'm going to grope Amelia who is 8 years younger than me and get smacked MVH

Originally posted by Socod_badne: How so? Could you give examples or maybe expand on what you mean? You see, I'm saying omniscient creator like Allah who creates us out of his own free will does choose our destiny. For our destiny can never ever be different from what Allah knew BEFORE he chose to create us. I gave the a simple analogy earlier when I said... Allah's SWT knowledge of future events does not necessarily mean that [His Knowledge] causes it to happen. If you [for example] know that the children of the school near you go to lunch at noon, that doesn't mean that your knowledge (or expectation) makes them go for lunch at noon. Allah SWT knows what YOU will do out of YOUR OWN FREE-WILL. How about you answer a few questions for a change sxb. You said that ALlah "does choose our destiny"; this would be saying that He is unjust because we are not responsible for our actions because, as you said, He "chose our destiny". Now, how do you reconcile this line of thinking with your faith? You obviously aren't asking to find out but arguing a position and it would be interesting to know how you reconcile this stand with Islam. Am not a philosopher so I hope you aren't disappoined by the way I approach your syllogism... 1. Allah is omnisceint (all-knowing), is free to create who ever he likes and can not make mistakes. - True 2. Because he is omniscient, before he creates us he knows our ultimate fate: hell or heaven. - True! But this is where you seem to get lost. His knowledge of what choices we will make in our lives doesn't mean that He has chosen the paths we will take. 3. His creation can not alter their ultimate fate that Allah was already privy to as that would negate his omniscience. -True. But we don't know what is in the future so grinding over this issue is futile (Prophets are usually given some access to this domain and sometimes the average person can get a glimpse of future events through dreams or visions). We are created with an intellect and ability to decide our destiny; so as far as we are concerned, we are the masters of our destiny and Allah's knowledge about it does in no way shape our choices. Our belief in the fact that Allah is Omniscient gives us a certain level of peace in our hearts because he has access to our inner beings, access to matters we don't make manifest. This helps the human being to try and excel in virtues because no matter, however minute can escape the Knowledge of the Omniscient. Originally posted by Socod_badne: But I haven't said any of that neither did I anthropomorphize Allah -- a strange accusation. All I said was free will (in it's conventional undertanding) obviates some of Allah's attributes like omniscience. Do you disagree? If so, please tell us why. It is indeed a strange accusation, apologies sxb, I got things a bit mixed up. I do disagree because you seem to think that we could ONLY have free-will if Allah is unaware of the choices we are going to make. Subxanallah! As a Muslim, you believe that Allah is Omniscient, so your choices are a result of your decision and not His Knowledge, somehow you seem to have a difficulty understanding this. Think of Allah's attributes for a while, remember that He is the Creator and our brains would explode from trying to figure Him out (excuse the hyperbole). We are not equipped for such a task and therefore we can make deductions from what we have at our disposal. When you think of "knowledge", don't think of Allah's Knowledge to be similar to ours, I know this sounds bloody obvious but reflect on it. And also, think about Allah's attributes regarding Justice and it might help in elucidating the matter. If you accept Allah as Al-'Adl (The Just) and Al-'Alim (The Knowledgabe), then it would be absurd to claim that He has sealed our fate. Think about His 99 Atributes, He is also Al-Jabar, Al-Halim, etc etc. I don't know whether you believe in predestination or free-will, you seem to mix them freely (as I have understood it) yet they are on either ends of the paradigm. As a Muslim, you obviously should believe you are free to make your own choices, otherwise what would be the purpose of Heaven and Hell? As Nur conscisely said..."So Qadar in other words is Allahs knowledge of our choices. Allah also interferes at times, we call them Miracles." Qadr is not predestination in the literal sense of the word. It has to do with Allah's Knowledge, not a path he has decided for us.

I laughed my head off when I saw the name Derek Trotter and his brother Rodney Trotter.

Socod_badne, You are the MASTER OF YOUR OWN DESTINY, if you are righteous and treat others kindly then you will get your reward. Allah SWT knowing about your destiny doesn't mean that He has chosen it for you. What you are doing here in your deduction is that you are anthropomorphizing Allah. He doesn't change His mind, make mistakes or act unjustly, these are human characteristics. Perhaps a paradigm shift would enable you ro understand this issue. Originally posted by Socod_badne: Obviously I'm saying otherwise. Humans have genetic predisposition to substance abuse; not all humans but majority. From the outset not everyone is at level playing field. SOme are more disadvanteged than others due to how they're wired ; more prone to fall through the cracks so to speak. Some physiological factors does put certain people in "disadvantage". If the three previous generations that preceeded you were alcoholics perhaps you have genetic predesposition to alcoholism. This doesn't mean that you are born with a bottle of lager in your hand or a syringe filled with heroin; you still have to consume these substances for you to become an addict (obviously of free-will). Equally, those who have for generations not consumed alcohol (like Arabs and Somalis, who have been Muslim for over 1400 years) can have difficulty with alcohol because their liver can not break down the alcohol with ease (unlike their western counterparts) and therefore get drunk faster and can easily become alcoholics. This by no means relinquishes you from your responsibilties or choices and therefore become a substance abuser by choice. Now, most people avoid succumbing to their innate urgings. Needless to say not all for variegated reasons. Do they bear full responsibility for being drug addicts? Every sane person bears responsibilty for their actions. Obese people nowadays would like to free themselves from any blame and point the finger at their genes (they blame the malfunction of the protein Sar1b). Fifty years ago, most westerners were not as obese as today, it is their diet that has put their health in risk. People in Asia and Africa probably have this "gene malfunction" that makes you store lipids, but since they are'nt over consuming food, the gene doesn't seem to be an issue.

Click on the link below (Source) to watch an interview of the woman with Foreign Accent Syndrome. -------------------------------------------------- Source! A Geordie woman has apparently developed foreign accents after waking up following a stroke. Linda Walker awoke in hospital to find her distinctive Newcastle accent had been transformed into a mixture of Jamaican, Canadian and Slovakian. The 60-year-old may have Foreign Accent Syndrome, where patients speak differently after a brain injury. The former university administrator says she hates what has happened to her and now feels like a different person. Mrs Walker said: "My sister-in-law said that I sounded Italian, then my brother said I sounded Slovakian and someone else said I sounded French Canadian. "But the latest is that I sound Jamaican, I just don't know how to explain it. "Everybody is obviously hearing me differently. "I didn't realise what I sounded like, but then my speech therapist played a tape of me talking. I was just devastated." Researchers at Oxford University have found that patients with Foreign Accent Syndrome have suffered damage to tiny areas of the brain that affect speech. The result is often a drawing out or clipping of the vowels that mimic the accent of a particular country, such as Spain or France, even though the sufferer has limited exposure to that accent. The syndrome was first identified during World War II, when a Norwegian woman suffered shrapnel damage to her brain. She developed a strong German accent, which led to her being ostracised by her community. Different sounds Dr Nick Miller, a senior lecturer in speech language science at Newcastle University, said the condition could occur in patients who had suffered a stroke or other brain injury. He said: "The stroke has affected the coordination between different muscle groups like the lips, tongue and vocal chords. "The balance has been changed and certain sounds get distorted so vowels and consonants take on different sounds. "Intonation is also affected so sometimes it will fall at the end of a sentence and sometimes it will rise." Mrs Walker added: "I've lost my identity, because I never talked like this before. I'm a very different person and it's strange and I don't like it. "It's very hard and I get very upset in my head, but I'm getting better."

Click on the link and then on "Watch the Latest Programme", it contains a report from Somalia. It will be there for the next 24 hrs. If it's not there when you click, try "Past Programmes" and then select Monday 3rd. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/default.stm

I haven't declared any Muslim to be non-Muslim, what I did is point out that one cannot be a Muslim and at the same time be against the principles of Islam. Part and parcel of being a Muslim is accepting that the Laws of the Almighty are superior to those of man. You openly stated that you reject the ahadith, is this the reason why you are fighting Keynaan22's battles? Are you trying to rationalise your rejection of the Sunna? I seriously don't know how you pray or do all the other Islamic rituals if you totally reject the ahadith. How do you do it? Please do enlighten us.

Socod_badne, That was a response to Tyjwania after she said "but what if the choice I make in free will is the choice I am supposed to make anyway?" There is nothing one is 'supposed' to do as man does things out of free-will. I was telling her that what she is 'supposed' to do is that which is of benefit to her (as stated in the Qur'an and Sunnah and by all previous Prophets and Messengers) in this world and the hereafter. The issue of predestination/free-will is clear; is it predetermined meaning the choices have been made for you? No! Allah SWT is JUST and that means that everyone will be judged according to their deeds. A clinically insane person will not be held accountable, even he commits genocide, becuase he is lacking the ability to tell right from weong. This shows you the Mercy Allah has, then why would he predetermine people to be sinners and some to be pious? That would defeat the who idea of reward and punishment according to your deeds. It would make seeking [or aiming at] perfection futile. Just because Allah SWT knows what you will do throughout your life doesn't necessarily mean that He makes you do those things. I don't know what you mean by predetermined but we're genetically pre-wired to substance abuse. Ditto to spirituality (read The God Gene ). What are you really saying here? I said that those who become drug addicts and alcoholics abuse substances and were not made into this by The Almighty. Are you claiming otherwise? 'Spiritual awareness' is present in all humans and that is stated in the Qur'an, all souls were created and made a covenant with the Al-Mighty. What has innate spirtualism got to do with drugs and alcohol abuse? Before he created you, right? His knowledge is not limited by time. Do you believe that Allah SWT is All-Knowing?