Nur, The last thing I expected you to mention was the story of Abdullah ibn Saba. I respected your arguments until you mentionned his name, because that is the lowest blow by some of our Sunni brothers towards our Shi'a brothers. I remember Dalmar the Somali nationalist coming up with this story one time we were discussing this issue on Somalinet. I sent him a Sh'ia response on the ibn Saba saga where Sunni references are used to refute the fairytale. Please read it through... Shia News.com http://www.shianews.com A Fairytale Refuted by Facts By: Ali Payam Mosbat Author's Note: To the reader, when people write critical and objective articles without identifying themselves, such as the article bellow, it feels like I'm reading and refuting a pamphlet written by the KKK. It's spooky, and detracts greatly from the weight of any comments made. This absurd and anonymous article ABDULLAH IBN SABA; FOUNDER OF SHIISM is another ploy demonstrated by the anti-Shi’ah syndicate in order to mislead, cast confusion and discord among the Shi’ah in particular and Muslims in general. The anti-Shi’ah zealots have attempted to invert every truth about the forthright successor ship of Ali ibn abi Talib (a.s.) to accommodate their predecessor’s fundamental error, i.e. the irrational and fraudulent concept of caliphate, hence, its stepchild the misconception of (shura). A Fairytale of Abdullah Ibn Saba; refuted. "Oh you believe, if a transgressor comes to you with news, try to verify it, lest you inflict damage on people unwittingly; then you may consequently regret your hasty action. (ch. 49, v.6) The enemies of Islam whose singleness of purpose was/is to confuse, mislead, and split the Muslims, in their effort to explain the emergence of Shi’ah, claim that the Shi’ah are a sect originated by Abdullah Ibn Saba, a Jew, who embraced Islam during the reign of Uthman Ibn Affan, the third caliph. Furthermore, they claim that Abdullah Ibn Saba traveled in Muslim cities and towns, from Damascus to Kufa to Egypt; proselytizing to the Muslims that Ali is the Prophet's successor. They also claim that Abdullah Ibn Saba enticed the Muslims to kill Uthman since he believed Uthman had usurped the seat of Imam Ali. Furthermore, they claim that he also made mischief in the armies of Ali and his opponents in the battle of Camel. Some anti Shi’ah zealots, even today, conjecture that he was also responsible for the Shi’ah’s “ false ideologyâ€, as insinuated by this anonymous author. These mercenary writers believe that Abdullah Ibn Saba is the ORIGIN of Shi’ah; and since he himself was a hypocrite and a falsifier of tales, then all the knowledge and beliefs of the Shia are false as well. In fact, Abdullah Ibn Saba is the best scapegoat for all the claims of some Sunnis. This is the only tactic the anti- Shi’ah zealots can muster up; yet, this fictitious story has always failed to pass the giggle test among most common Muslims, let alone the scholars. The fictitious stories attributed to the character of Abdullah Ibn Saba originated from the satanic mind of Sayf Ibn Umar al-Tamimi. He was a storyteller, lived in the second century after Hijrah, and died after the year 170 AH (750 AD), al-Dhahabi said that Sayf died during the rule of Haroon al-Rashid in Baghdad (Iraq). Sayf shaped his stories by some primary facts he found in the documented history of Islam available at that time. Sayf wrote a novel much the same as what Salman Rushdi did in "Satanic Verses" with similar motives, but with the difference that the role of Satan in this case was given to poor Abdullah Ibn Saba. Moreover, he distorted the biographies of the companions of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) to please the government of his time, and to distort the history of Shi’ah and to ridicule Islam. Sayf was a staunch advocate of the Umayads, who were known throughout history to be one of the worst enemies of Ahlul-Bayt, and as such, it was in his best interest to invent such stories to degrade the Shiah. Here is the proof given by the Sunni Ulama: The following leading Sunni scholars confirm that Sayf Ibn Umar was a well known liar and untrustworthy: 1. al-Hakim (d. 405 AH) wrote: "Sayf is accused of being a heretic. His narrations are abandoned." 2. al-Nisa'i (d. 303 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and they should be disregarded because he was unreliable and untrustworthy." 3. Yahya Ibn Mueen (d. 233 AH) wrote: "Sayf's narrations are weak and useless." 4. Abu Hatam (d. 277 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is rejected." 5. Ibn Abi Hatam (d. 327 AH) wrote: "Scholars have abandoned Sayf's narrations." 6. Abu Dawud (d. 316 AH) wrote: "Sayf is nothing. He was a liar. Some of his Hadiths were conveyed and the majority of them are denied." 7. Ibn Habban (d. 354 AH) wrote: "Sayf attributed fabricated traditions to the good reporters. He was accused of being a heretic and a liar." 8. Ibn Abd al-Barr (d. 462 AH) mentined in his writing abut al-Qa'qa: "Sayf reported that al-Qa'qa Said: I attended the death of the Prophet Muhammad." Ibn Adb al-Barr continued: "Ibn Abu Hatam said: Sayf is weak. Thus, what was conveyed of the presence of al-Qa'qa at the death of the Prophet is rejected. We mentioned the Sayf's traditions for knowledge only." 9. al-Darqutini (d. 385 AH) wrote: "Sayf is weak". 10. Firoozabadi (d. 817 AH) in "Towalif" mentioned Sayf and some others by saying: "They are weak." 11. Ibn al-Sakan (d. 353 AH) wrote: "Sayf is weak." 12. Safi al-Din (d. 923 AH) wrote: "Sayf is considered weak." 13. Ibn Udei (d. 365 AH) wrote about Sayf: "He is weak. Some of his narrations are famous yet the majority of his narrations are disgraceful and not followed." 14. al-Suyuti (d. 900 AH) wrote: "Sayf's Hadith is weak." 15. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (d. 852 AH) wrote after mentioning a tradition: "Many reporters of this tradition are weak, and the weakest among them is Sayf." It is interesting to see that although al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH) has quoted from the book of Sayf in his History, he has mentioned in his other book that Sayf as a weak narrator. In "al-Mughni fi al-Dhu'afa'" al-Dhahabi wrote: "Sayf has two books which have been unanimously abandoned by the scholars." (al-Mughni fi al-Dhu'afa', by al-Dhahabi, p292) The result of the investigation into Sayf's life shows that Sayf was an agnostic and an unreliable storyteller. Stories told by him are dubious at best and entirely or partly forged. In his stories, he has used names of cities that never existed in the world. Abdullah Ibn Saba is the star of those stories. He also introduced some 150 imaginary companions for the Prophet to fill out the empty characters of his scenarios, by giving them some strange names that are not found in any other documents. Furthermore, the timing of the events given by Sayf's narrations contradicts the authentic Sunni documents. Sayf has also used imaginary chains of narrators, and reported many miraculous events (like talking cows with human etc...) Bellow, I have produced the anonymous and seething article in full. Although, the evidence, I have provided above, is so conclusive that based just on it the article bellow should be dismissed. Never the less, in fairness I will respond. (inshallah) 'ABDULLAH IBN SABA - FOUNDER OF SHI'ISM? jamiat.org.za states: There have been a growing tendency amongst modern Shi`ah scholars to dismiss the role of `Abdullah ibn Saba (sometimes called ibn Sauda) of San'a, a city of Yemen, in the origin of Shi'ism debate. After the Iranian revolution of 1979, the modern Shi'ah state now wishes to ground its origins on something more concrete, rather than upon the mischief of Jew, in order to gain official recognition as a legitimate Islamic state amongst Muslims. Is this anonymous author implying the absurdity that the Shi’ahs are so ****** and ignorant that after 1400 years, they have never figured out that their belief and faith are based on fabricated traditions and tales going back to Abdullah Ibn Saba? The Shi’ah, if they were indeed so ****** as to believe a fictitious/hypocrite Jew in their theology, philosophy, jurisprudence, history, and interpretations of the Quran, then how have they survived to this day and age? It is more interesting when we see the Imams of the majority of the Sunnis were the students of the Imams of Sh’iha (Imam Muhammad Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq, peace be upon them), then one would say the Sunni schools got the basics of their Fiqh from Sh’iha, which means the Sunnis along with the Shi’ahs were the followers of the very same person, the mysterious Abdullah Ibn Saba! Who is left then? Perhaps, the followers of Muhammad Ibn Abdil Wahhab! jamiat.org.za states: Upto the classical age of Shi'ism, all of the erudite Shi'ite scholars attributed the origin of Shi'ism to this same ibn Saba. `Allamah Majlisi said: "Some scholars have asserted that ibn Saba was a Jew who accepted Islam and started voicing his opinion of the `wilayat' (divine appointment) of `Ali. While a Jew, he propounded the exaggerative notion that Yusha ibn Nun was divinely appointed to succeed Prophet Musa, he thus adopted a similar stance with regard to `Ali in relation to the Holy Prophet. He was the first to subscribe to the belief of Imamate, and he openly vitriolated his enemies (i.e. the first three Caliphs) and branded them as infidels. The origin of Shi'ism is thus based on Judaism." (Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 25, p. 287). Other Shi`ah scholars who have affirmed this was `Allamah Kashi in his Rijal al-Kashi and `Allamah Mamaqani in his Tanqih al-Maqal. Although the above statement is not quite what it reads never the less, all that it goes to show is that Allamah Majlisi was asserting what some scholars had said. ("Some scholars have asserted that ibn Saba was a Jew..â€) I should point out however that there are less than 14 reports available in the collections of Shi’ah and Sunni, which mentions the name of Abdullah Ibn Saba, and are supplied with the chain of authorities, but in their chain of authorities, the name of Sayf does not exist. Al-Kushshi (or al-Keshshi; also abbreviated as Kash) (d. 369) who wrote his book "Rijal" in 340 AH mentioned few traditions in which there exists the name of Abdullah Ibn Saba, from the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt. These traditions give a very different picture than those mentioned by Sayf. However, it has been proven for Shi’ah scholars that the book of al- Kushshi (Kash) has many errors, especially in the names and few errors in quotations. He has reported many weak traditions in his book of al-Rijal, and as a result, his book is not considered a reliable source for Shi’ah. Furthermore, the reports of al-Kushshi (Kash) are not found in any of the major 4-books of tradition of the Shi’ah. (For a critical evaluation of his errors, please see al-Rijal by al-Tusteri as well as al-Askari.) Other Shi’ah scholars, who mentioned Abdullah Ibn Saba, have quoted al-Kushshi or the two historians (i.e., al-A'sh'ari al-Qummi and al-Nawbakhti who did not provide any chain of transmitters or any source for their report). Among those who quoted al-Kushshi (Kash) are: Shaikh al-Tusi(d. 460), Ahmad Ibn Tawoos (d. 673), Allama al-Hilli (d. 726), etc. jamiat.org.za states: Amongst Sunni scholars, `Allamah ibn Taimiyyah had confirmed this in his Minhaj al-Sunnah. He wrote: "More than one Shi`ah scholar have affirmed that that the first one to start disparaging the Sahabah and who introduced the doctrine of wilayah was a hypocrite and a zindiq who intended to corrode Islam from within. He wished to scheme as Baulus had schemed against Christianity. Prophet Jesus was raised to the heavens, and there were a precious few who followed his teachings. His teachings thus weakened the fabric of Christianity and many started adopting his exaggerated notions and many kings were won over to their side. When their scholars tried to oppose them, they were killed, some were exiled, while some were confined to life-long sentences in remote monasteries. On the other hand, this ummah will always have a group of staunch followers who will uphold the truth. No corrupt person will be able to destroy Islam, he will only gain some followers." (Minhaj al-Sunnah, vol. 3, p. 261). `Allamah Shahristani has confirmed this too, saying that when `Ali heard the claim of his divinity directly from the mouth of ibn Saba, he exiled him to Mada'in (Al-Milal wa al-Nihal, vol. 2, p. 11). Among the Sunnis who mentioned the name of Abdullah Ibn Saba in their stories WITHOUT bringing any source for their claims, are: 1. Ali Ibn Isma'il al-Ash'ari (d. 330) in his book "Maqalat al-Islamiyin" (Essays about the People of Islam). 2. Abdul-Qahir Ibn Tahir al-Baghdadi (d. 429) in his book "al-Farq Bain al-Firaq" (Differences of the Sects). 3. Muhammad Ibn Abdil-Karim al-Shahrastani (d. 548) in his book "al-Milal wan Nihal" (Nations and Cultures). The above-mentioned Sunnis do not give any source or any chain of authority for their story about Abdullah Ibn Saba. They have competed with each other to increase the number of sects in Islam with strange names such as al-Kawusiyyah, al-Tayyarah, al Mamturah, al-Ghrabiyyah, al-Ma'lumiyyah !!, al-Majhuliyyah ! In addition, so on WITHOUT giving any source or reference for their claims. Living in medieval times, these authors presumed that writing stranger stories and attributing unrealistic events to different Muslim nations will make them more reputable than the other competitors in this area. Moreover, by that, they caused a tragic damage to the history of Islam and committed a great crime for what they have falsely attributed to the Muslim nations. Some of them have provided silly legends and fairy-tales, whose falsehood are easy to detect nowadays, though it would have been possible for them to succeed in passing off such stories as history in those times. For instance, al-Shahrastani in his book "al-Milal wan Nihal" has mentioned that there was a group of semi-human creatures in the name of "al-Nas-Naas" with only half face, one eye, one hand, and one leg. Muslims could talk to these semi-human creatures and they even exchanged poetry! Some Muslims even used to go hunting these semi-human creatures and they used to eat them! These semi-humans could jump faster than a horse and were ruminant/cud- chewers! Al Shahrastani further mentioned that al-Mutawakkil, the Abbasid Caliph, ordered the scientists of his time to investigate about these creatures! (See al-Milal wan Nihal, by al-Sharastani) People at that time did not have the modern tools that would enable them to discover the falsehood these unrealistic stories and fairy-tales, and perhaps they would have preferred more extensive and more strange collections which may have seemed a guarantee of their accuracy, even though they were provided with no reference. In addition, by chronological study of the lifetime of these authors, we can conclude that ALL of them were long after the era of Sayf Ibn Umar, and even after al-Tabari. Therefore, it is quite possible that they all got the story of Abdullah Ibn Saba from Sayf. This claim becomes stronger when one observes that none of them mentioned the source of their reports, which might be because Sayf Ibn Umar's scandal was known to every body by that time and they did not want to discredit their books by mentioning its source. Moreover there exists NO document available related to Abdullah IbnSaba BEFORE Sayf. The scholars or historians who lived before Sayf Ibn Umar NEVER mentioned the name of Abdullah Ibn Saba in their books. This shows that if Ibn Saba ever existed he was not anything important for the historians before Sayf. This is also another reason to believe that what was propagated around the personality of Abdullah Ibn Saba was initiated by the mass propaganda of Sayf Ibn Umar al-Tamimi. The reports from Sunni scholars, historians, and storytellers of ancient cultures who wrote few lines about Abdullah Ibn Saba but did not supply any evidence for their claims, nor did they provide any chain of supportive authorities (isnad) for their reports to be examined, thus they have been dismissed, here is why: For instance, their reports start with: "some people say so and so..." or "some scholars say so and so..." without mentioning who that scholar was, and where they got it from. It was based on rumors which was propagated by Umayads (AFTER Sayf's work) which had reached them, and some based on the authors' own creativity. This is inferred when we see these authors have reported some legends which are clearly false and rejected by logic. These reports are provided by those who wrote books about "al-Milal wa Nihal" (stories about civilizations and cultures) or "al-Firaq" (divisions/sects). jamiat.org.za states: Hafiz ibn Hajar threw more light on the dialogue between `Ali and ibn Saba on this occasion: "Abul Ijlas says that I heard `Ali telling `Abdullah ibn Saba: "By Allah, I have not hidden any secret from anyone which the Holy Prophet told me. I heard the Holy Prophet saying that there would appear thirty liars before the last day, and you are one of them." Once Suwaid ibn Ghafalah visited `Ali during his reign and told him that he had passed a few people amongst whom was ibn Saba speaking ill of Abu Bakr. They claimed that you also held the same opinion." `Ali retorted: "I have nothing to do with this black filthy creature. I seek refuge from Allah that I hold any opinion other than the best for Abu Bakr and `Umar." He then exiled ibn Saba saying that he could not tolerate to live with him in one city. `Ali then ascended the pulpit, and after relating the story said: "I will lash anyone who prefers me over Abu Bakr and `Umar, the lashing of a slanderer." (Lisan al-Mizan, vol. 3, p. 290). This Sunni tradition is not rated authentic either. The total of these unauthentic tradition by both Shi’ah and Sunni (reported by other than Sayf), do not exceed fourteen at most. They will be even less if you remove repetitions. These few Sunnite and Shi'ite traditions convey that: 1. Abdullah Ibn Saba appeared during the Caliphate of Imam Ali (AS), and not during the rule of Uthman as Sayf alleged. 2. Abdullah Ibn Saba did not say that Ali is the successor of Prophet (PBUH&HF) as Sayf claimed. Rather he said Ali (AS) is God. 3. Imam Ali (AS) burnt him along with all other extremists (al-Ghulat). This is while Sayf does not state such a thing. 4. There is no mention of his existence or his playing a role at the time of Uthman. There is no mention of his agitation against Uthman, which ended up with assassination of Uthman as Sayf attributed to Abdullah Ibn Saba. 5. There is no mention of the role of Abdullah Ibn Saba in the battle of Camel as Sayf attributed to him. 6. These traditions do not indicate that any righteous companions of Prophet followed Abdullah Ibn Saba. This is while Sayf maliciously alleged that some of the most faithful pioneers of Islam such as Abu Darr (RA) and Ammar Yasir (RA) were the students of Abdullah Ibn Saba during the reign of Uthman. Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani provides the very similar information of what al-Kushshi (Kash) provided. Ibn Hajar mentioned: "Abdullah Ibn Saba was one of the extremist (al-Ghulat), dualist/seducee/manichaeist (Zindeeq), and misguided, which is conveyed that Ali burnt him with fire." (Lisan al-Mizan, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v3, p289) Then Ibn Hajar continues: "Ibn Asakir mentioned in his History that `his origin (Abdullah Ibn Saba) was from Yemen and that he was a Jew who adopted Islam and traveled in the cities of Muslims and preached them to disobey their rulers, to induce evil amongst them, then he entered Damascus for that purpose.' Then Ibn Asakir mentioned a LONG STORY from the book of al-Futooh of Sayf Ibn Umar, which does not have correct support/authorities (isnad)." (Lisan al-Mizan, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v3, p289) Then Ibn Hajar gives a tradition among whose chain of authorities two individuals are missing. In footnote he says that its has been dropped.This is the tradition: "Ali ascended the pulpit and said: What is wrong with him? people said: He is denying (or lying upon) Allah and His Messenger." (Lisan al-Mizan, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v3, p289) In another tradition, Ibn Hajar reported: "Ali said to Abdullah Ibn Saba: I have been told that there shall be thirty liars/imposters (who claim prophethood) and your are one of them" (Lisan al-Mizan, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v3, p290) He also wrote: "Ibn Saba and his followers believed in the deity of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, and certainly Ali burnt them by fire during his rule." (Lisan al-Mizan, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v3, p290) Beliefs of Ibn Saba in a nutshell It’s fair to ask, according to whom, the enemies of Islam, or it stepchild the Wahhabis? jamiat.org.za states: `Ali was divinely appointed to be the Holy Prophet's successor, and that `Ali had his this knowledge from the people. It’s no surprise that the vested interests of the enemies of Islam should attribute Hazrat Ali’s forthright successorship of caliphate to a fictitious character, however this wishful thinking is short lived In the light of the following evidence: Imam Ali reported that the Messenger of God is the one who granted him the office of executorship, brotherhood, and successorship. Sayf Ibn Umar reported that the idea of the executorship of Ali had come from a Jew called Abdullah Ibn Saba. We should ask the members of the Wahhabi syndicate (who call everyone who disagree with them unbeliever) the following question: Do you believe in Imam Ali's report or Sayf Ibn Umar's? Sayf was accused by prominent Sunni scholars of weakness, forgery, and heresy. Of course, we should not expect any true Muslim to choose the report of a liar such as Sayf Ibn Umar and to reject the report of the Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib, the Leader of the Faithful, the "brother" of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The Messenger of God used to say to Ali: "Your position to me is like the position of Aaron to Moses, except that there shall be no Prophet after me" Sunni References: 1. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56 and 5.700 2. Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71 3. Sunan Ibn Majah, p12 4. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174 5. al-Khas'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16 6. Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309 The Prophet (PBUH&HF) thereby meant that as Moses had left behind Aaron to look after his people as his Caliph when he went to receive the Commandments, in the same way he was leaving Ali behind as his deputy to look after the affairs of Islam after him. Allah said in Quran: "... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place among my community." (Quran 7:142). Notice that "Ukhlufni" and "Khalifa" (Caliph) are exactly from the same root. Do the mercenary writers who endeavor to spread hostility among Muslims forget that while returning from his farewell pilgrimage, and in the presence of over a hundred thousand pilgrims in Ghadir Khum, the Messenger of God declared: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader, Ali is his leader. O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." Some of Sunni References: 1. Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63 2. Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43 3. Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370, 372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators!!!) 4. Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572 5. al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371 6. Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 4,21 7. Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters) 8. Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50 9. al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19 10. Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173 11. al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208 12. Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308 13. Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144 14. Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26 15. al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319, v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143 16. Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas, Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,... 17. Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290 18. Hilyatul Awliya', by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27 19. al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn" (Ali), v2, p462 20. Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397 21. al-Mirqat, v5, p568 22. al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172 23. Dhaka'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68 24. Fayd al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217 25. Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114 26. Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297 ... And hundreds more... No Muslim would ever doubt that the Messenger of God is the leader of all Muslims for all generations. The Prophet in his statement granted Ali the same position as his, when he said that Ali is the leader of everyone who follows the Prophet. This declaration which was narrated by more than one hundred and ten companions and rated authentic (Sahih) and frequent (Mutawatir) by the leading Sunni scholars, not only indicates that Ali is the executor of Messenger, but also indicates that Ali takes the place of the leadership of all Muslims after the Messenger of Allah. However, these mercenaries still allow themselves to say that the belief that Ali was the executor of the Messenger had come from a Jew who declared his Islam during the days of Uthman!!! jamiat.org.za states: He later called for the divinity of `Ali. Having said so, he proclaimed himself as `Ali's Prophet. Even Shi`ah scholars have gawked at his audacity. He initially did not openly preach these beliefs, but he later abandoned his secret and started a vigorous campaign. (Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 25, p. 286) This anonymous, presumed Wahhabi author is desperately trying to intertwine the unauthentic following conjecture of the Sunni tradition and link it with the shi’ah; nice try. "Ibn Saba and his followers believed in the deity of Ali Ibn Abi Talib, and certainly Ali burnt them by fire during his rule." (Lisan al-Mizan, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v3, p290) jamiat.org.za states: He preferred `Ali over Caliph Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman, saying that they usurped the Caliphate form `Ali. He declared open enmity towards all those who did not subscribe to such a belief and branded them as kuffar. Abdullah Ibn Saba has no base on the disputes immediately after the death of prophet related to his successorship, and all relevant claims of Shi’ah is proven to be on the death of the prophet or even before that, not during the reign of Uthman which is far long after prophet's demise. At the very start and immediately after the death of the prophet (PBUH&HF), the Shi’ah of Ali included those companions who where loyal to Imam Ali, such as Ammar Ibn Yasir, Abu-Dhar al-Ghafari, Miqdad, Salman al-Farsi, Ibn Abbas ...etc., all gathered in the house of Fatimah (AS). Even Talha and Zubair were loyal to Imam Ali at the beginning and joint the others in the house of Fatimah. al-Bukhari narrated: Umar said: "And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr." Sunni Reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English, v8, Tradition #817 His devious scheme jamiat.org.za states: Speaking of the devious scheme which ibn Saba gradually implemented to achieve his aims, Shah `Abd al-`Aziz has written: "Ibn Saba first called the masses to show their love and devotion to the ahl al-Bait (Prophetic Household). He then started claiming that none could excel the ahl al-Bait in status. When he gained some popularity at this, he boldly claimed that `Ali was the most superior person after the Holy Prophet. When he saw that some of his followers had indeed believed him, he confided in them that `Ali was in reality the appointed successor of the Holy Prophet, but the Sahabah had usurped this right from him. He then unleashed a campaign of vilification against all the Sahabah, and the first three Caliphs in particular amongst the army of `Ali. What amazed ibn Saba was that people still believed him! He thus took the opportunity the corrupt the belief pattern of the Muslims. He thus told his staunch supporters that `Ali had powers above those of a normal human being, he was Allah, besides whom there was no other power. This `secret' until it reached the ears of `Ali himself. `Ali threatened to burn all of them, asked them to repent and exiled them to Mada'in. As a result of this propaganda, the army of `Ali was split into four factions: First, The initial and sincere Shi`ahs who are in fact Sunnis. They followed the directives of `Ali, and paid due respect to all the Sahabah, including those who opposed `Ali like Sayyidah `A'ishah and Mu`awiyah. `Ali singled out this group for praising on many occasions, and they did not fall prey to the propaganda machine of ibn Saba. Second, The Preferential (Tafdili) Shi`ahs. They preferred `Ali over the rest of the Sahabah. Third, the Saba'i Shi`ahs or the Tabariyah. They went a step further and regarded all the Sahabah as hypocrites, usurpers, and kuffar. Fourth, the Exaggerationaists (Ghali) Shi`ahs who proclaimed `Ali as Lord. These were the special students of ibn Saba. Thus, the origin of Shi'ism was planted by ibn Saba and since then it continued to spread." (Tuhfah Ithna `Ashariyyah, pp. 3-5) All these accounts prove that ibn Saba was not a product of the figment of anyone's imagination, he was rather a well-known personality who whose notoriety matched that of the devil too. The above conjecture made by the pseudo-scholar Shah Abd al-Aziz is his problem, and it only goes to show his ignorance. He should be concerned that he can’t back up his little fairytale from any Sahih books of tradition. By the way, does Shah Abd al-Aziz believe in the semi-human creatures in the name of "al-Nas-Naas" with only half face, one eye, one hand, and one leg, and such other fairytales too? One of the funniest conjectures made above is Quote: “First, The initial and sincere Shi`ahs who are in fact Sunnis. They followed the directives of `Ali, and paid due respect to all the Sahabah, including those who opposed `Ali like Sayyidah `A'ishah and Mu`awiyahâ€. If in fact, those Sunnis were Shi’ah, then who or what should we name the people that gave allegiance to Mu’awiyah and cursed Ali (a.s.)? The pseudo-scholars have ignored what is well-known in the history of Islam and which was reported by a host of good reporters. The revolution against 'Uthman was a result of the efforts of prominent personalities in Medina, such as 'A'ishah, Talhah, Zubayr, Abdul Rahman Ibn Awf, and Amr Ibn Al-As. Instead of attributing the revolution to real people who rebelled against 'Uthman and brought about the revolution, the dividers of the Muslims refuse to accept the truth or mention it. They attribute the revolution to an imaginary Jew, relying on the report of Sayf Ibn 'Umar Al-Tamimi, a man who was accused by prominent Sunni scholars to be a man of lies and deviations. They chose to accept Sayf's report in order to cover up for the Caliph, 'A'ishah, Talhah, and Zubayr. It is even more amazing that 'A'ishah, Talhah, Zubayr, and Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan fought the Imam in two wars, unprecedented in the history of Islam. They were the most zealous to smear the reputation of Imam Ali and his followers. Yet the opponents of Imam Ali did not accuse his supporters of being students of Ibn Saba. History clearly states that Mu'awiyah commanded all the Imams of the mosques throughout the Muslim World to curse Imam Ali at every Friday prayer. If the imaginary Ibn Saba had any small role in the revolution against 'Uthman, Mu'awiyah would have made it the main topic of his defamation campaign against the Imam and his supporters. He would have publicized throughout the Muslim World that those who killed 'Uthman were students of Ibn Saba and that they were the ones who brought Ali to power. However, neither Mu'awiyah nor 'A'ishah took this route because Ibn Saba's story was invented by Sayf Ibn 'Umar Al-Tamimi who lived in the second Hijra century after their death. jamiat.org.za states: The fact that he is not well known amongst the Traditionists (Muhaddithun) is not prove enough that he was a created and legendary figure. His absence in the books of Rijal (Biographies) is because he did not report any traditions (ahadith), and not because he did not exist. Nay, the fact that he is not known at all among authentic tradition reporters is because he does not exist, never has, never will, although, such anonymous writers, such as yourself, and the rest of your pathetic cohorts may object! Dr. Taha Husain, who has analyzed these stories has rejected them. He wrote in "al-Fitnah al-Kubra" that: In my opinion, those who have tried to emphasize on the story of Abdullah Ibn Saba, have committed a crime in the history and hurt themselves too. The first thing that is observed is that in the important collections the name of Ibn Saba does not appear when they discuss the agitation against Uthman. Ibn Sa'd does not mention the name of Abdullah Ibn Saba when he discusses the Caliphate of Uthman and the revolt against him. Also the book by al-Baladhuri, "Ansab al-Ashraf", which I think the most important and the most detailed book about the revolt against Uthman, the name of Abdullah Ibn Saba has never been mentioned. It appears that al-Tabari was the first who reported the story of Ibn Saba from Sayf, and then other historians quoted al-Tabari in this regard. In his other book "Ali wa Banuh", he also mentioned: The story of Ibn Saba is nothing but myth, and is the invention of some historians, since it contradicts other historical documents. ...The fact is that the friction between Shi’ah and Sunni have had many shapes, and each group was advocating itself and denouncing the other by any means possible. This requires a historian to be much more cautious when analyzing the controversial reports related to seditions and revolts. jamiat.org.za states: In the face of the above evidence, the call of modern Shi`ahs to disclaim their roots has a sinister ring to it. They wish to discredit the claims of sound historiography in doing so, and came up with new explanations which might have some early political legitimism, but has no scientific basis and is not supported by corroborative texts. At most it can be said that though Shi'ism is not entirely based on the teachings of ibn Saba, it has borrowed many Saba'i characteristics which plays an integral in modern Twelver (Ithna `Ashari) Shi'ism. Al-Rasheed Volume3 No.10 Muhammad Jawad Chirri is Lebanese by birth and a graduate of the Islamic Institute of Najaf in Iraq. Before reaching the age of 25, he wrote about Islamic jurisprudence and its basis. The following statement of his really sums it up. In conclusion, such false and malicious campaign started after the birth of the Islamic Republic in Iran. It seems that some of the Arab governments found the birth of this Republic a threatening danger. This Republic reminds Muslims of the period of the righteous caliphate and makes a clear distinction between the words and the deeds of the Arab governments, who claim to be committed to Islam, yet spend the public wealth to satisfy the low desires of the rulers. These governments tried to extinguish the light of the Islamic Republic by war, but they did not succeed. Therefore, they are trying to deceive the Muslim population and turn them against the Iranian Muslims by fabricating accusations in a sectarian campaign, aiming to convince the innocent Muslims that the Shi'ites have deviated from the path of Islam. Should such a campaign succeed, unsuspecting and unsophisticated Muslims may find it religiously legal to combat the Shi'ites and shed the blood of the Iranians, who have sacrificed for Islam more than any other people have. The Shi'ites have tried for many years to meet this campaign with silence, closing their eyes and hoping that it would end, and that there would be no need to refute the malicious accusations. It was also hoped that some of the Sunni scholars would try to refute these accusations. There is no doubt that many Sunni scholars are aware of the Islamic doctrines to which the Shi'ites subscribe. Should they be unaware of the Shi'ite doctrines, it would be very easy to become acquainted with them. There are numerous books written by Shi'ite scholars about those doctrines, and those books are available. It is possible for the Sunni scholars to call for an Islamic conference in which religious differences may be discussed and an appreciation for each other's viewpoint developed. This is what the Qur'an calls for: "O you who believe, if a transgressor brings to you news, verify it, lest you inflict damage on people unwittingly; you may consequently regret your hasty action." (ch. 49, v.6) It is regrettable that the Sunni scholars did not move in this direction and did not try, as far as is known, to refute the untrue accusations, which were publicized by the hypocrite campaigners. Our silence did not stop this campaign. It made it more vehement. Many people thought that our silence is evidence of the truthfulness of the accusations, and that we are unable to answer them. Thus, it has become necessary to clarify the truth and inform all the Muslims who like to know the truth. In this effort, we shall not accuse the Sunni brothers of disbelief, deviation, or transgression, as some of them have accused the Shi'ites. We shall not place ourselves in such a position, which is improper for any Muslim to take. We obey the Almighty in His prohibition: "O you who believe, let not a folk ridicule another folk who may be better than they are; nor should women ridicule other women who may be better than them. Neither defame one another nor insult one another by calling names. That is the name of lewdness after faith and whoso turns not in repentance, such are evildoers." (ch. 49, v.11) It should be pointed out to the reader that those who make these prohibited accusations use a very strange method to indict millions of Muslims whom they do not know, did not see, and with whom they did not speak. They tried and convicted millions of Muslims who lived centuries ago, along with the numerous future Shi'ite generations yet to be born. They have also convicted millions of contemporary Muslims without questioning them and without searching for the truth, which is within easy access to any interested person. This article is archived at: http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000163.php Copyright © 2000-2003 Shia News.com

Referees can be annoying at times, but I wouldn't want to cross this crazy ref's path... ------------------------------------------------- Referee shoots dead football coach who queried his decision Rory Carroll in Johannesburg Monday July 26, 2004 The Guardian A South African referee dispelled any doubt that football is more important than life and death over the weekend when he shot dead a coach and wounded two players who challenged a decision. A yellow card awarded to a player during a match between two local teams in Kenton-on-Sea in Eastern Cape province prompted protests from the coach and team. That is a common enough occurence at matches but in this case the argument turned into a fight which the referee settled with a bullet. The coach of Marcelle club was hit in the chest and died on the pitch and two players were hit in their hands by the same bullet, according to the South African Press Association. "There was an altercation and the referee became threatened when the other team approached him because they were angry," said Inspector Mali Govender of Grahamstown police. "So he pulled out a gun and killed the coach of the visiting team." The unnamed referee fled the scene but police were confident he would be soon caught and face one charge of murder and two cases of attempted murder. The dead man's name would be released after relatives were notified. Since winning the right to host the 2010 World Cup South African football has been plagued by a match fixing scandal in which a cartel of crooked referees are accused of taking bribes. It was an English football legend, Bill Shankly, who joked about football's importance transcending mortality - but it has become a truism. Across the world referees have been set upon by furious fans and in Latin America two nations went to war over a football match. But usually referees are the attacked, not the attackers. South Africa's widespread gun ownership has changed that.

Seven of Nine, What is the issue? Muslims treat their women unjustly?

Nur, This thread has taken a weird twist; you initiated it but you are now chosing who to adress and who to ignore. There's a Chinese saying by K'ung Futzu that states... A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. There are no scholars here, so you have to take what you are getting from the others, even though it might not be the "structured" discussion you were bracing yourself for. Be more humble instead of throwing remarks like... "Brother, Come back to Sunnah Way", making your opponent look like some lost soul in limbo that you are trying to retract. If that is your intention, do it in a less patronising manner, maybe then the person will be willing to listen to you. As for my beliefs, I see my self as a Muslim who is looking critically at the different tenets. PS: I'm still waiting for your response to the issue of 'Abasa.

LayZieGirl, Muslims don't tell Jews how to construct their synagogues, do they? The author is a Zionist working for a Zionist newspaper, writing about how women are treated unfairly in Islam. C'mon, you don't have to be a genius to figure their intentions. Our Noble Prophet PBUH said; Kullu 'amalu bi niyaat... "Actions are but by intentions and every man will have but that which he intended." The owner of New York Times is an enemy of Islam and his intentions are NOT good.

Rahima, What do you call it when someone goes to the graves (considering that there seems to be so many) of say Shaykh Cabdulqadir Jaylaani and asks for health or wealth? Is this not a form of worship? I believe that is what is ususally referred to as intercession (shifa'ah). There are Sunnis and Shi'a who practise intercession and followers of the teachings of Muhammad AbdulWahhab have been trying to stamp it out for centuries now by referring to it as 'worship', thus making it shirk. Shifa'ah is only the right of Allah SWT, but He (whenever he wishes) extends it to certain people in his creation. There are numerous verses in the Holy Qur'an that talk about intercession and here are just a few; "None shall have the power of intercession except such a one as has received permission or a promise from Allah the Most Gracious." (Qur'an 19:87) "No intercessor can plead with Him except after His permission." (Qur'an 10:3) "On that Day, no intercession shall avail, except the one from whom Allah the Most Gracious has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him." (Qur'an 20:109) "And they cannot intercede, except for him with whom He is pleased." (Qur'an 21:28) This is the difference between the defenders of Islam (i.e. the scholars) and lay men/women like ourselves. It is for this reason that these noble human beings who are the inheritors of the prophets should be safe from our tongues even more so than the average Muslim. IT IS for this reason that we MUST revere them even if we disagree with some of their rulings. You can disagree with someone and still hold them in the highest regard- this should be our position as Muslims I understand what you are saying, but where do we draw the line? When Napoleon invaded and took over Cairo, he even had influence on the revered scholars of Al-Azhar. It is said that he even made them release a fatwa claiming he was the long awaited Mahdi. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, the saudi Ulama made the decision to invite Americans on to our holy lands and fight a fellow Muslim. The Saud monarchy uses the scholars to reach their means and that has been demonstrated since the days of Muhammad AbdulWahhab till today. The scholars have tolerated alcoholics, gamlbers and utterly immoral characters rule the Holy Land. They issued a fatwa some years back that makes the Hajj only a spiritual journey (killing off the social role the hajj has always had throughout histoy). I am not calling them names or anything, but please don't tell me that they are beyond critisism becasue it doesn't take a nano-tech scientist to see what is going on.

Rahima, I was reacting to this comment... If it's shi'a mosque, I wouldn't be serprised.... Garab Tuujiye, It sounded like you are saying that Shi'as are more likely to disrespect the mosque than Sunnis. My reaction has nothing to do with Abu Bakr, Umar or Aisha (may Allah SWT have mercy on their souls).

Very sad indeed that those people lost respect for the masjid. Garab Tuujiye, It's that kind of mentality that drives a wedge between a people.

Sareeda, Thank you for directing brother Nur. Nur, The thread has been spread on two different places and that makes the discussion much more difficult. I don't know how the admin plans to correct this. Anyways, that is beyond my control. Back to the topic...You at times take things VERY literally and that is often pretty scary. Those traits are most evident with our brothers who follow the doctrines of Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab. Your ideas sound 'Wahhabi' just as much as mine sound 'Shia'. Allah SWT knows where the truth lies. - He is with everything but not in the sense of [physical] nearness. He is different from every thing but not in physical separation. PS: The ending of the last sentence was wrong and I have corrected it now. It is to read "physical seperation" and not "in sense of seperation" as earlier. What is your problem with this statement? Do you know that you limit Allah SWT by saying he PHYSICALLY close to this or that? He is with everything: aware of everything that goes on in the mind of the Hindu in Mumbai and also knows what goes on in the head of the Fulani man working in a fields in West Africa. For that, Allah SWT does not need physical proximity. And to God belong the East and the West; whither so ever you turn, there is the Face of God... (The Holy Qur'an 2:115) And He is God in the heavens and the earth; He knows your secrets, and what you publish ... (The Holy Qur'an 6:3) He is the First and the Last, the Outward and the Inward; He has knowledge of everything. (The Holy Qur'an 57:3) These sifaat or qualities in the Sunnah school of though are left as they are, we say, The quality is linguistically known, How it is that way, is none of our business as servants, indulging in such philosophical discourse is innovation, innovation in technology is good, but in faith it is bad and forbidden. Bro Nur, just the other day, you were telling me that ... "in Islam we have the phyisical with al its four dimensions, 3+ time, as a single dimension, then there is another Ghaib, dimension, which is where heaven and hell lie, and all others like angels and Jinn." Where did you get these 3+time dimensions that you claim was from Islam? You used your own scientific knowledge and made it an Islamic fact.If that isn't BID'A, then am not sure what innovation really is. Nur said... Answer: Allah SWT says in Suurah Saafaat" Inna ilaahakum la WAAXID" meaning, your ilaah, God, is BUT ONE" Allah SWT is ONE in everey sense, never a multiple in any way, because the word (LA) in Arabic connotes ( XASR) exclusivity, no other possibilities of multiples of dieties. Allah SWT's Divine Unity is NOT a numerical concept but an ontological one. The Oneness Allah SWT talks about means that there is NO OTHER LIKE IT. If you look at it from a numerical point of view, then we inevitably assume that two is more than one, which basically qualifies us as mushriks. Nur said... Answer: Allah SWT says: "Laa tudrikuhul absaar, wa huwa yudrikul absaar" meaning, that sight does not catch up with Him, instead He reaches sights" Allah counted Himself in NUMBER He said about Himself " Your God is But ONE" Again...think ontologically, NOT numerically. Nur said... Meaning the East and the West belong to Allah alone, so no matter wherever you face, ther is the face of Allah SWT" So by pointing or facing we are not limiting Allah or numbering Him, we are just seeking Him the way He instructed us, we only do things He ordered us to do, the WAY He taught us through His Messenger" Everything belongs to Allah SWT. If I ask you where Allah SWT is, can you point to yourself? Nur said... By saying Allah is ONE, we are not limiting Him, we mean He is the Eternal, because if you want to play the numbers game in this logic, counting backwards, before 4 there is 3, and before three , there is 2, and before 2, there is (1), and before one there is (ZERO), no one is before UNITY of Allah Subxaanahu wa tacaalaa culuwan katheeraa' Again, just like all the other times; THINK ONTOLOGICALLY, not numerically. Divine Unity is not numerical but ontologial.

Devil's Advocate, Now that that's cleared up, in your post, you are pretty much downplaying a woman's right to go to the mosque or rather that it is a man's mosque and women are just welcome to come. That is a sad mistake brother, as the mosque is the house of God, where everyone is equal in his eyes. WoW, it's amazing how someone can be misunderstood. Where did I say (or even imply) "it is a man's mosque and women are just welcome"? As NGONGE said, women don't frequent mosques that much. The reason for taht I have listed above, they are NOT obliged. Now, if the sisters are so strong in faith that they attend the mosque in as large numbers as men without even being compelled to, then, Alhamdulillah! How did you see the women's side of the mosque? Did you go when it was populated, or when no one was there. Would it matter? As for sources, I found nothing wrong with the article, but I can see why muslim men and some women would be pissed to see a non-muslim speaking on something that so few muslims can bring up. Muslims know who has their best interest at heart and Zionists aren't the first that spring into one's mind. It would be like saying that Americans' had Iraqis' best interest at heart when they invaded their country. Even though a woman is experiencing menstruation, she can go to the mosque and listen to the lecture. Unless you are planning to totally disobey Allah SWT and the teachings of Our Noble Propet PBUH, women are NOT allowed to enter the mosque, recite Qur'an or pray while the yare menstruating. Our Noble Prophet PBUH said... "I do not make the mosque permissible for menstruating women and those in a state of ritual impurity." Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur'an... "… Approach not As-Salaah (the prayer)… when you are in a state of Janaabah (i.e., when you are in a state of sexual impurity and have not yet taken a bath) except when travelling on the road (without enough water, or when passing through a mosque)…" [al-Nisa’ 4:43] And viking over there is using our ability to bleed every month to justify lack space and general comfortability one should feel at the mosque. The main reason why women's section wasn't in proper condition in many mosques was because they were not obliged to attend. Your ability to bleed every month means that the numbers aren't always as high on the women's side.

I am not downplaying the importance of the issue, but just explaining to Devil's Advocate about the source of her news. There are a few reasons which I think might have led to the current situation... -Women, unlike men, are not obliged to offer their daily prayers in congregation. -Friday prayers are mandatory for men and optional for women. -Women are not allowed to pray during menstruation. So for about a week a month, she cannot attend congregational prayers. -The link between the Imam and the congregation should not be broken. This rule does not incule women. I have been to the women's side of the mosque and the condition in the mosques that I have seen from Nairobi to Stockholm have been quite satisfactory. This issue is not new, I have heard complaints from women who want to attend the congregational prayers. In India, there was even a group of women who after complaining of their situation, decided to start their own mosque, a women's mosque.

I hope Tehran develops nuclear arms in the near future. That will help restore some sort of balance in that region.

Nur, The other half of this thread is on.. http://somaliaonlinecom.siteprotect.net/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi? What to do?

Will Drogba stand up to the pressure at Stamford Bridge? I think he's the biggest transfer this summer.

Devil's Advocate, Sis, don't let media like the New York Times be your source of information. It is owned by the mogul Zionist Rupert Murdoch who is also owner of the misinformation network known as Fox News. For God's sake, even the author of the article is Jewish. Since when did Zionists have anything positive to say about Islam?

Salafi Online, I think it was really sad the way the Saudi Sheikhs you revere so much have used their powers to help sustain the immoral monarchy of Saudi Arabia for centuries. They make fatwas that have had negative impacts on the Ummah. They allowed American troops to be deployed in Saudi Arabia, thus helping the kufaar have a stronghold on Islamic soil. They have also killed of any other dimension of hajj, making it a purely spiritual journey. These sheikhs' symbiotic relationship with the (often immoral) Saudi royals have been very harmful to our Ummah and Deen because of the amount of leverage the monarchs have on them. you find that it contains enormous kufr, stories like graveworshiping, seeking shafa'a(intersection) through others.... I have never heard of any Muslims who worship graves instead of Allah SWT. If you know of any such group, please feel free to share that information. Unfortunately, some Islamic sects have deemed Tawassul to be unlawful, which has led to a lot disareement amongst Muslims. Muhammad al-Baghdadi saw Tawassul as a means of attaining nearness Allah SWT. Imam Malik ibn Anas was once asked by Mansur al-Dawaniqi whether he should turn towards the tomb of the Prophet PBUH for supplication and the Imam answered; Why do you want to turn away from the Prophet (s) when he (Prophet Muhammad (s)) is the wasilah (means) for you and for your father Adam, towards Allah on the Day of Resurrection. Turn to him (the Prophet) and seek his intercession (shafa'at). Al-Ghazzali writes in his book "The Revival of the Religions Sciences" regarding this subject... The Prophet should be made the means (wasilah) and the intercessor (shafi'), and with face turned towards the tomb, the pilgrim should implore Allah for the sake and position of the Prophet with the words: "O Allah, indeed You have said, Had they, who had wronged themselves, come to you and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Apostle had asked forgiveness for them, they would have certainly found Allah Most-Propitious, Most-Merciful (Holy Qur'an 4:64);

Admin, There are numerous posts missing, could you please tell us what hapenned to them? I tried posting on the Islam forum and could not. All I keep getting is... Sorry, UBB has encountered an unexpected, fatal error. This error is extremely abnormal. Please contact the board administration. The error text is: Can't open 'NonCGIPath/Forum3/001408.cgi'. Permission was denied - please ask the administrator to check the permissions on that file/directory. The exact error returned by the operating system is: Permission denied

I HATE HIM! Shouted the eccentric Somaliman with the large tooth. I was flicking through the channels one day and saw him praying. It was live on E4 (?) and was quite suprised becasue they never show clips of him praying. They show clips of people picking their noses, but a praying Muslim would be too much for the english public. Ahmed is iirational but entertaining to watch, unfortunately they put him in the same room with airheads who are only concerned about looks and that seems to frustrate him. I think the public will evict him this time, unless BB rigs the results.

Ocean restaurant in north London does indeed have good food. I hope they don't bring in satelite TV like the people of IMAN did. You have Al-Jazeera blasting in the evenings and it's now more a joint for akhbar and shah; like every other Somali joint.

Salafi_Online, Again, you are doing the annoying act of quoting only part of what I said. By doing that, you disregard what I was trying to convey and therein lose the context. Allah (SWT) does tell us to reflect; reflection is a form of 'ibada. Now take a deep breath and read what I said... When I think about the purpose of life, the bounties of Allah (SWT), our duties and obligations, The Holy Qura'n and everything else within our universe, it is difficult not to think about the Divine Essence of Allah (SWT). Does it say that I am refusing to worship Allah (SWT) by reflecting on Creation and the Creator? Allah (SWT) has created us to worship him, I am not disputing that. But He is not in need of human worship. If not a single human worshipped Him, it wouldn't reduce his Glory even with a jot!

" He is the One, but not in a numerical sense." We learned that Allah is THE ONE AND ONLY, in every sense, He is singular, unity May I ask, what other sennse is there to make him plural, are you suggesting that the Imaams are also Devine because they are Macsuum, thus, part of Allah SWT? No one is attempting to make Him plural. He is One, but NOT the first when counting. Not ONE in the sense that there is two and three. One, one and only, AHAD. - "He who points to Him, admits for Him limitations; and he who admits limitations for Him has numbered Him." Your respone to this statement is quite urrelevant sxb. What has it got to do with the Shi'a beliefs about the Qura'n and Hadith? That statement is ONLY about Allah (SWT) showing that He has no limitations. - Answer: You are mixing a true statement with a false one, Allah says : " The Christians say Allah is the third of a threesome," " He corrected them in more than one place : " That Allah is One", mystifying and complicating the simplicity of Tawheed by saying the oneness of allah SWT is a puzzle, has one spinoff, justifying Shirk, that although the Christians worship three, in essence they are worshipping one God. Allah SWT is ONE in everysense, never a plural entity and anyone who believes that Allah SWT could be plural is no aa Muslim at all. This statement confirms what you have just said. Allah (SWT) is not counted by numbers, you can NOT say he is one in a numerical sense. Allah (SWT's) Oneness has no singularity nor plurality. "He is not confined by limits nor counted by numbers." What part of this statement do you have a problem with? Answer: We Only describe Allah exactly how He decribes himself in the Quraan, in the contexct He meant, never say something He never say about Himself... That is the whole point with the statement. One cannot describe Allah (SWT) because that will be limiting Him. And if you limit Him, you number Him, and if you number Him has rejected his eternity. Allah is not associated with unity, His creatures are, Allah is One, and his unity is inseparable quality from His essnece, removing the unity quality from Allah makes him a plural, another loophoe to make shirk. Everything associated with unity is deficient except Him. This sentence is very deep. Divine Unity is not a numerical notion here sxb. His Unity lies in His Greatness and Infinity, not comparable to anything. Everything except the Divine Essence is limited if it is one. You even used the word Unity describing Allah (SWT) when you said... We learned that Allah is THE ONE AND ONLY, in every sense, He is singular, unity

I remember learning chess at the age of 13. It was quite a challenge to play; until a hierarchy was formed in the neighbourhood. Everyone knew who they could beat and who they couldn't beat in chess. Things just got boring from that point on...until someone brought scrabble. Khodâfez

InshaAllah! You've got my attention bro, can't wait to read the rest.

Salafi_Online, Sxb, why don't you quote what I said fully? This is what I said, "We might not be able to comprehend Allah (SWT) fully, but I think that we should not be discouraged from using the little capacity of comprehension we have." I might be wrong in trying to comprehend the Creator, but it is difficult to avoid that kind of reflection. When I think about the purpose of life, the bounties of Allah (SWT), our duties and obligations, The Holy Qura'n and everything else within our universe, it is difficult not to think about the Divine Essence of Allah (SWT). this book: Nahj al-balaghah It does not ring a bell, please enlighten me Viking, Could it be a Shia book? It is a compilation of sermons of Imam Ali bin Abu Talib (RA). There's a hadith of our Noble Prophet (PBUH) that says... "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate". So sxb, please don't limit yourself to Salafi books only. Actually bro Nur recommended Nahj al-balaghah a couple of years ago when we were discussing the issue of madhabs at Somalinet.

Sophiest, A source of knowledge using reason as the fundamental criteria for solving problems. It is an epistemological criterion used to evaluate claims by the use of reason to interpret experience. Skeptisism, a priori. Cardinal principals? I don't know... ehmm of mathematical nature? You've got to help me here.