Dear Ayoub, I thought those two were the strongest justifications always given by the recognition-seekers. Are you saying 'we have the right for self-determination' is the vogue now? Ok, even there, I have always agreed with your rights. I just don't subscribe to your idea of crafting new roles for the goose, while you want the gander to live with old ones. SSC, Awdal, Salal and Makhiir will not join you. Minus them, determine your future if you so wish.

Xinnfanin, Ayoub is not damiin. Far from it. That I know.But he doesn't have a good cause to defend. It is the strength of your cause that makes your arguments strong. For such a cheap cause, his fightback actually is not bad. You can see Norf has tried as well. If the two could have a cause higher than the Tolka remonstrations, it is clear they could do more than they so far did.

Gheelle.T;746003 wrote: What you're accusing him of is actually what the whole state and the majority of its inhabitants stand for. Federalism, Political fight wit the TFG when feel left out, and etc.. If this is true, and I await Xinnfanin's confirmation, - if the whole of the puntlanders support Faroole's hawkish posturing againt the TFG and his 'we will go it alone' rethoric, then I have to concede Carafaat's accusations against me are valid and legitimate. However, this thread is about Faroole and secession, not about apportioning blame for the collapse of the Somali State. I was of the opinion Punlanders are incurably fixated with taking state power at all costs, but are fully behind the blue flag and Somalia's territorial integrity. When the discussion turns to the latter (who was responsible for the demise of Somalia), it will be hard to find anyone to spare. Indeed, Puntlanders were the first to fire the bullet of treason from Ethiopia, a tactic latter copied by SNM to a devastating finale. But, General Aideed and the horde of anarchists he led take a big share of the instability.The Anarachists in South and Central are the ones who sired the most disgraceful of traitors and killers. Mohamed Dheere, Ali Gheedi, Indhacadde, Abdi Qaybiid, Suudi Yalaxow,Osman Atto are not from Garowe or Hargeysa. Everyone took part in taking the life out of the Somai State, including the dictator who morphed into a clan shell when his power came under threat. Even my Tolkay who always had the role of a footnote in the political goings of Somalia were not outdone in claiming the maimimg of Somalia. Colonel Ahmed Omer Jess and his big-footed militias are responsible for one of the clearest cases of clan cleansing in Kismayo, where they killed the who is who of a clan that has equal rights as they do in the town. This is well before the Azania professor dreamed in broad daylight about a tribal homeland, where he will be a dark king. This is not about that. And we certainly don't get much benefit from seizing ourselves with matters of who killed who in a context no one will look whiter than the other. We, however, should focus on what can unite us and reflect on the potential we have as a nation to come out of the shame we are in. That requires a serious introspection. Let us view ourselves as one sinned nation than focus on who sinned us and who we sinned against. One million has died in Rwanda's genocide and the answer isn't secession. If it doesn't make sense in Rwanda, why in Somalia with no hard-feelings towards one another as is the case in Rwanda.

Gheelle.T;745989 wrote: How is PL a pro-secession or Farole in that matter? When or where? Unless you're going by what Nassir has eluded in other thread. As far as I know, PL's beef with the TFG were always about politics and "give me" the piece of the pie that IC gives in the name of Somalia. isn't PL's whole purpose is to be a model for federalism in Somalia, rightly or not? As for your dislike of the guy, that's all good and dandy. Obviously, you follow the logic of sheep and think where Faroole goes, the herd follows. Where did I say PL is pro-secession? You read what is not written. On the subject, Puntlanders committed a grave crime against the Somali people when they all lined up behind Abdullahi Yusuf's treasonous attack on Mogadishu. Those were the days when all of them felt like Ethiopia will deliver power to them on the altar of Mogadishan's graves. And they have many disconcerting political attributes. But secession is not one of them.

Gheele, this is about Faroole not puntland. Also I didn't see any Puntlander who is pro-secession. I don't have to balance things out, by pleasing or displeasing some people. I reflect my opinions on different issues. And my dislike of Faroole is not news.

If President Faroole’s portrayal of Somaligalbeed people as non-Somalis were insulting, his threat to separate Puntland from Somalia if his draconian dictation is not accepted is disturbing. The President of Puntland has repeatedly issued ultimatums and in some cases blatantly acted against Somalia’s national interest with his federalism antics. Faroole thinks Federalism is about establishing parallel republics. He has shown alarming separatist instincts, and it seems he would have gone for full blown declaration of secession if he was not afraid of the backlash from the ferociously Somali unionist Puntland masses. He is not quite the village i.d.i.o.t who sings wedding songs in a funeral, but he sure is like the dangerous vagrant who disturbs the weeding if the woman he fancies refuses to dance with him. Rather than endure a shrinkage of personal power and previledges in Puntand, he will let Somalia burn. Faroole seems to have one goal in mind, which is preservation of power. Other than that it is hard to see any principles that guide him. It is not helpful to dwell more on his dark past as a bank raider, information whose veracity I cannot establish. Nor do I want to discuss his ill-judgement in nominating his own son as advisor as if the son will confer a different advice in the office than he would give at home at night. For Faroole, acceptance of the central state is contingent on who leads it rather than what it does. That is why Farmaajo is seen with evil eye while Abdiwali is welcome with open hands. Faroole’s aversion to Sheikh Sharif is about anthropology rather than governance. Sure, it is hard to like the sanctimonious sheikh who dons different attire for different occasions. But he is the only game in town, to use the cliché. So, if Sharif is not acceptable, Abdiwali shouldn’t be. The sad thing is Faroole is convinced Federalism will solve the ills of Somalia, solely looking at it from the vantage point of his perch. He also confuses a decentralized government which devolves power and resource to regions with Federalism. Somalia needs the former to foster national cohesion and pride. Movement of labour and skills across regions will flourish in the former case as opposed to a different Federal States which will only lead to proliferation of tribalism. He is an obstacle to the formation of a functioning Somalia state as much as the separatists in the North are. His methods are in fact more sinister and insidious as it is not clear just what to expect of him. He proclaims that the interest of Puntland comes first, but what is puntland without Somalia or Somalia without puntland? Just how he doesn’t see this inseparable duality boggles the mind. It is hard to say he is running a proper State, with all the internal insecurity, piracy, and neglect of a sizeable northern population who are unionist. His authority is challenged by armed groups in the North and recently in the South, and instead of providing sound leadership to calm the situation, all he does is to lament and label everyone who is fed up of his nepotism and corruption a terrorist. Puntland is cursed with bad leaders from Abduallhi Yusuf to Adde Muse to Faroole. If Abduallahi Yusuf was a threat to the stability of Somalia because of his intransigence, Faroole is a threat to the rebirth of Somalia because of his greed. Let us hope this ends soon and people the caliber of Abdrisak Haji Hussien and Prime Minister Abdiwali take the helm once again. The former might be too old, but there is no retirement for the wise in the present day Somalia.

The women has our children who she adopted and we worry she will mistreat them as step-children.

:D loooooooooooooooooooooool@ Baashe's "haku daalin jeedaal". It prettty much sums up the futility of the endless recognition-seeking. In case they are averse to the somali and may heed the Ethiopian adage, Firew Hailu also sang something like: Lam aleyn ba samaay Watataanim Alaay Which translates into "I have a cow in the sky, Whose milk, I never see" :D

N.O.R.F;745928 wrote: What? Anarchy, death and destruction (which you acknowledge) isn’t enough to call for a sececession? How about, erm, let me see, we were not given free school meals? There! Case closed.. Death and destruction not unique to Somaliland. Anarchy, most somalis are impacted and secession didn't come from any other. Political marginalisation? No one was marginalized more than the Bay and Bakool people and we don't hear scession there. That was my argument. By the way, I just found out Xaaji Xundjuf is a close abti of mine. Waan yaabanaa oo ninyahow xageed ka daadinaysaa unbaa lahaa. Abti meel xun laga raac.

In Central Manila, Philippiness, in that fiercely catholic but equally corrupt country, stands a big church. It is located in an area where prostitutes push shoulders with priests, and embryos of discarded fetus crowd the sewage. At the highest tip of the church, a black writing on a white board reads "christ is the anwer". Locals passed and nodded to this sacred message until one clod morning, vagrants who drunk too much local beer climbed to the top of the church and in unmistakebly drunken ink put the following next to the word of god: "What is the question?" I am not sure if these rascals were so blasphemously ingenious or if they have watched Bill Rutkoski's critically-acclaimed solo show with the same title. Ayoub may tell us the answer is 'break of the 1960 union", but my question is 'to which question?" To the question of building tolerant and democratic society? To economic prosperity? To clan purity? I await the question more than I long for the answers.

War RED SEA nin quman buu ahaa. Ma Carafaat buu dhalay. Mothers' stomach Zebra. Uur hooyo waa ogor tumaal! :D

AYOUB;745762 wrote: The issue is Pro. Abtigiis is an Ethiopian who is putting words on Somalilanders' mouths. He should've asked why Somalilanders wanted to break the 1960 union with Somalia and we could've a had mature discussion. What we have here is no more the usual guilt-ridden calaacalkii hadhaagii Professor-Toleed Ayoub, Let us start with the basics. Let us assume I did put words into Somalilanders mouths. Let us assume I am a stranger who doesn't understand the rocket science of when and where the break of union with Somalia started. Let us assume all Somalilanders who joined Somalia in 1960(not one clan) want to break that union. Can you now take the podium and give us three or more reasons why? And if you don't come back to either atrocity, cunto-gooni doonimo, or anarchy in South Somalia, I will call this for you. I thought I have addressed each of these reasons in my arguments here. If you explain the break of the union outside this frame, I will hold my hand in mouth with awe! Xinnfanin, Kaftan'ka tir dee, waa la inala joogaa hadde. Sowka Ayoub meesha soo dhexgakay anigoo rabaa inaan is gacal-cuno. :D

Dr. Xinnfanin, miyaan kuu sheegay in Ngonge talafoon igu damiyey laba jeer maanta. Jawaabtaan ka sugaynayna waxay noqotay warbixin dagaal beeleed uu Jacaylbaro ciwaan ku daray.

Madaaxweyne jaadhig ma Sayid'baa? :D As soon as I saw this, I thought walaahi ninkii SayidSomal ahaa wakaa dalacay!

By the way, I am sure Ngonge is more than proud with this response to the Vuvuzela article. :D isagaa arintan ka danbeeya. Shalayna talafoonku iga qaban waayey.

Ingiriiskiibaa ileen idin xukumi jiray, dacwad jeclidiinaa ninyahoow? :D Ma intaas baad ii dacweyn lahayd ? For your information, LST ayaa seedi ii ah oo wax la iga qaadi karo ma jiro. :D

No, I am asking Jacayl. I don't trust you. :D And in any case, you will say I am not one of them. War waan kula kaftamayaaye xaalada daji carafaat. I hope you are not taking the political harangue seriously.

Jacayl, inaabti hoos iigu warano, is this carafaat guy kuwii isu jawaai jiray ee kolba meel sheegan jiray? Magacyadoodii waan ilaaway walaahi sidii loo ban gareeyey? :D

Abdi Iley, the dangerous vagrant, who the Tigres have imposed as a ruler on the people of Somaligalbeed, has surpassed all of his trademark follies by instructing all Somali region civil servants to present three e-mails they own and the passwords. And they have to do this in a meeting hall within few minutes!! Anyone who said he doesn’t own an e-mail or who refused to give password was immediately arrested. What is worse is if your e-mail doesn’t contain information for more than three months, it is because you have been deleting your communication and therefore, you are a big suspect. This level of paranoia shows he is under some threat, whatever that is and wherever it is from. This comedy is what you get when you put a lunatic mother-beater at the top. He had a job as electric pole porter few years ago. At least, he ate the fruits of his sweat then.

It is an unfortunate perennial clan confict over land and pasture. May the dead go to heaven and the killers to the hell. The dead one is mine and the killer is mine. I have the feeling of a father whose son killed the daughter. By the way, if the killers are ONLF simply because of their lineage, why can't the dead be SNM? That way, it would be ONLF killing SNM. Still unfortunate.

What is happening is three senior ONLF commanders and political leaders were murdered inside Kenya (Nairobi and refugee camps) in the last three months. Ethiopian security operatives working with UWSLF collaborators are behind this. Last night there was an attempt on the life of a young girl named Deeqa who has escaped Jigjiga jail. She is known for being one of the girls Cabdi Iley personally tortured. She needs medical attention on one of her breasts. She escaped only because the men who strangled her thought she was dead. It is this sort of terrorist government that calls others terrorist. These are the facts. And now we have this twist to it from passerby.

NASSIR;745476 wrote: However, as you repeatedly emphasized, most other Somali victims have shown a disproportionate willingness to forgive and mend fences with their brethrens. Judicious observation, son of the somali soil! The reason is, while most Somalis see the the civil war as a family feud where a brother was killing a brother, the secessionists consider it as invasion by aliens. It has much to do with how they define their identity, and the more they see themselves as distinct race, the more they get bitter at the mistreatment they received from 'invading clans'. And by the way, why the sharpest of tongues in this forum, the Somaliland contingent, chose to pass this weighty matter with either a shrug, a jibe or a diversionary 'we won' discourse, is because they do not have any sensible answers to the important question of why the atrocities committed against Somalilanders must be seen with a different microscope than the rest of the mayhem that occured elsewhere. The post-independence generation in Somaliland, for most part, has committed a flial treason to the patriotic idealism of their fathers. In fact, Timacadde would have composed a cursing poem to SNM if he is told the 'Qabyaalad' he so instensly warned against rules the roost in Hargeisa in the 21st Century. What is even most regrettable is that the SNM considers the union epsiode as a mistake and has falsified history by claiming that Somalilanders were hijacked into getting this marriage by the political elites of the time, forgetting that there was no difference between a Somalilander and a Somali in those days. The secesion agenda is a one clan motto, and anyone who tries to defend it is a clanist by default. No wonder why there is a water-tight correlation between proponents of this wicked idea and the geography they hail from. It is a Burco-Hargeisa-Berbera affliction and anyone who says otherwise is a certified liar. Chinua Achebe has once said that “it is far much easier for a blind man to describe an elephant”. He meant that the blind man can say whatever he thinks of the giant animal and could be forgiven if he is wrong. But the man in full sights should render a correct description or should live with the insult of being called a liar. He will not be forgiven for failing to correctly describe what is before his eyes. In trying to analyze the raison detere of the endless victim-mentality of the secessionsts, I have tried to accurately describe the source of their ailment. I hope I got it right. It is richly sardonic that Oodweyne, even with all his incomprehensible logic and turgid prose, could actually have offered a measure of what one could call a rebuttal. He has an annual malady whose anti-dote is to go and get a camel milk in the rural areas of Togdheer, a fetish he calls Dacar-bax, and he is unlikely to be here for a timely reaction. :D

In the absence of any substantive rebuttal to the allegation that Somalilanders' analysis of the Somali civil war is myopic, and that they are possessed by a demon of separation, it is wise to end this session. I, therefore, declare the matter concluded and send the file to the archives. It is sad the motives and identity of the poster become the focus of the discussion rather than the core issues. With their legendary siege mentality and aversion to critical appraisal of their sacred cow, it was fairly predictable it would end in this way.

Xaaji Xunjuf;745397 wrote: Abtigis iyo tolkis sultan faisal cali waraabe ba kugu sugaya hargeysa airportkeeda hangool ba dhagta lagaga qabanaya intanu jacaylbaro baa filekaga gudbin waliga ba dhe ina cumar jees banu habro wadaag ahayn wanu kula socona ciidanki adan gabyow baad ahayd :D :D :D war ileen ibtilo. war nimankan maxaa ii geeyey? SayidSomal has posted some good quotations in the other thread. "Illusory correlation" explains the landers belief that the Vuvuzela article was about General Tuke. Why not lynch this Tuke dude by the way. I couldn't care less, I don't know him. I was just pointing out a general affliction of the recognition-seekers.

Safe journey, Professor Ace. We will thoroughly miss your anthropological wisdom and impartiality.