All I said is I hear Ethiopians complain about their girls marrying white men, while I hear Somalis complaining about their girls marrying black men.

Libaax, That is not in any document. Just in a position paper we sent to the leadership as part of the concessions we can make to the TPLF once the discussion starts. You see there will be other clauses such as complete cessation of interference in the regional government internal affairs, demilitarisation of the region and bringing all the small number of military in the region under the regional adminstration's command, etc etc that will make TPLF drive ineffective. The ONLF should use the 5-10 years to reach out to the other clans to form a genuine pan-Somali Political party, which will revive the somalinimo in the region. Here, I am sceptic. I fear the ONLF may get the sneeze of post-war SNM cough which will make them feel they won it alone. There will be no progress if the ONLF act like victors and allocate 60-90% of the political power to its members. Resentment will start and the Tigres will exploit it. The ONLF should hold conferences just after the deal is made (if made) and should bring in other somaligalbeed personalities. The O hegemony and 'it is our region' mentality should be confronted by ONLF and changed. This frightens me more than anything else. To be honest with you,I don't think I will personally be supporting the ONLF anymore if this deal is signed. I most likely will be a fierce crtic, this time without suffering the reflexive charge of 'sleeping with the enemy' and being pro-colonialists. There is a lot I don't like about the ONLF.

Libaax, Arinta soo dhax galo oo talo ka bixi boqor dee, ha nagu eegin cadawga iyo Ngonge oo miidhane. The hardcore insist it has to be 5 years but I think 10 is also seen as acceptable, mainly because the TPLF maynot be just yet ready to agree to 5 years. The best-case scenario is 5 years, but the most likely scenario is 10.

We may not get all that we want! We haven't won the war! We look at the situation and accept any deal that satisfies the core issues of our struggle somehow. We cannot dictate the terms of this negotiation, but we also WILL NOT surrender and claim we have got a deal like the Al-ithad (UWSLF) and Engineer Ma'ow did. There is a big difference between surrender and peace deal. We call the current approach a 'PHASED approach to self-determination'. The ten years or so will not only be about development and prosperity but irreversibly educating people about their rights, so that they never again accept oppression. Iley and Meles's servants have no place in this deal. They cannot expect to be part of any political process in the region. The ONLF will insist on a clean elections in the region and that alone is enough to take care of the traitors. We may not be able to arrest them immediately though. But that will come one day.

People calm down! NOTHING HAS STARTED AND NOTHING HAS YET BEEN AGREED. Nor is there any gurantee this thing will succeed. Ngonge, YES we are ready to take a promise and political concessions. The ONLF did not do all things right in 1991 but the fallout was not all their mistake. A firm promise written on a document is enough. Again, there is a risk it will not be kept, but so is the option of restarting the armed struggle, this time around with better preparation and unity.

:D haye thread'kan ka bax dee. It is not for you or Ngonge. Xaaji, over to you!

Polanyi;768547 wrote: btw, this thread is of extremely low intellectual calibre. exits.s.s Agree! But all people in SOL are not intellectuals. We have Xaji Xundjuf, We have Somalia, We have Jacaylbaro, we have General Duke, We have rudy. Different threads for different markets! :D P.s. waryaa anigoo gabay somaliyad heli maxaa Ethiopian ii guurin. :D cilado yar yar bay leeyihiin. They are good as girlfriends, laakin xaasnimo, dee waa hadaad diyaar u tahay inaad communist ka noqoto emotionally (I mean in lagula yeesho).

So much so that this Ethiopian girl is parodying the culture clash with this comic song. Tringo's opening english accent is priceless. Typical Gonder English. "Everybody, this is Tringo! come on! yes! Excellent!" She is saying the guy wants to kiss her everywhere, doesn't bring raw meat she craves, but rather comes with useless flowers. She is saying she misses the old boyfriend from the rural areas, even with his whip and stick! :D http://www.ethiotube.net/video/17125/New-and-funny-Amharic-music-Abrhet-Girum-and-Yared-Gamo--Trngo-ትርንጎ

Every Ethiopian I meet and every Ethiopian website I go to is discussing the issue of increasing number of white men marrying Ethiopians. The male Xabashi's are full of scorn for their girls over this and keep to link the girl's preference to colour. They miss it is about money and opportunity. A long-time friend called me some months back to say she is now with a white-man. Every Somali from the Diaspora is complaining Somali girls there (those who astray I would assume) are marrying Black men (Jamaicans, and the like). Because we know the ingrained racial thinking that puts white over black, does this mean the blacks are going upwards by sleeping with Somalis, and the Ethiopians are going to their higher level by sleeping with whites? Or does it mean the Ethiopian girls are more desireable that the Somali ones? "If this trend continues" an angry Ethiopian lamented, "we will have a sizeable coloure/white Ethiopians in few decades". Given that the Somalis also will get a sizeable Bantu children from their wayward girls, will this lead to a white Ethiopia neighbouring a black (in the real sense of it) Somalia?

Godane's netowrk activated in SL too for an impending return of the prodigal son from the South, miyaa?

Polanyi;768257 wrote: When you have people like A@T/Zack.etc . who hypocritically support the invasion of Kenya, worship qabil and insult Islam, then there is no wonder most Somalis do not take the ONLF seriously and they fail..................... Mujaaheed Polanyi, Adeer, I do not support the Kenya invasion for clan reasons. Yes, it seems I do because of clan association. But it is a coincidence. If Bare Hiiraale is leading it, I will support it today. I just want the end of Alshabab. I have never supported Azania, but also I didn't understand the objection to it when all somalia is today is about clan statelets. I don't support the ONLF for clan reasons too. In fact, I despise its name and its strategies. But there is a colonisation going on in that region, a very bad oppression and they are the only group fighting it. I have the option of standing aside and wait for the real thing, but then that would make me a bystander. So, better support them and try to bring change from within. Over the last couple of years, I have talked to hundreds of ONLF supporters (mainly intellectuals) who share my ideas. So, I am optimistic the clan mentality will be changed in the near future. P.s. anigu Islam ma caayin, laakin wadaadada ma jecli. That much is true. Tuug diinta magaceeda ku shaqaysta ayaa u badan.

STOIC;768496 wrote: I don't think Kenya will benefit anything other than supporting a strong community in their government. By virtue of what AT&T has put forward it seems a bit confusing what the original goal of the ONLF was and it seems that everything is in its embryonic stage.I don't know what is far more important than the recognition of the self-rule of the O-people, but if they choose to negotiate what they deem will bring a future referundum then I think we can all hope the best for them.My most dreadful despair is Ethiopia plays a hardball game after ten years down the road and then everyone is back to square one. The deal will be a sort of 'stay of execution' for both sides it ever is reached. For the TPLF, there will be a clause which will state that the government will try to make unity attractive in this period. That the Ethiopian will want to play the hardball in few years time is a CERTAINITY. The TPLF is not a party that is known for honoring its words. Axdi maleh. But in 10 years time, the calculation is the ONLF may be able to bring the somaligalbeed people more closer, hpeful will change its name and composition to give way to a pan-Somaligalbeed political outfit, and then we can bargain from the position of unified migh. The regime will not get any stronger as well. The internal decay is staring to hit Ethiopia. The economy will not be able to sustain the increasing population. The government is not popular. So, something significant may happen along the way, that may bring about a de facto independece. Too many assumptions, but certainly the people in the region will need a break of sort now. But a break that brings relief later. Not a submission.

Two weeks ago, I met a senior diplamt in the Ethiopian Embassy here. His is tigre. Was my dormitory-mate for four years. So, naturally, the day we met we both were really excited. Went for dinner and I said nothing about the politics, not wanting to give away any hints. Lool, his assumption, he talked about the Amhara oppistion, Dr, Birhanu Nega, and finally asked me to buy the bond for the Nile (Abay) Dam the EPRDF is about to build. I have to confess I bought the bond for 500 USD out of our long-time friendship. I, however, could not ask him to get me a new passport (I lost the old one). :D Lool, he is excited he found me and is calling endless embassy people saying he is going to introduce a 'dear' friend. I told him I don't like to go to the embassy because I work in Somalia and I wouldn't like to be a target for Alshabab (because if I am seen there, i will be taken as your spy). :D That saved me. But then, we talked about the instability in east africa and i said it is Ethiopia and Eritrea (Meles and Isais) rivarly that is the cause. I tentatively asked him why don't you negotiate with the ONLF? He said "because they don't want". Yesteray morning he called me shouting and said "did you watch the programme about the Oga.den region on the Ethiopian TV last night". I don't watch ETV, so I said no. "How can they do this? They are useless. They are shooting themselves. The journalist must be fired. They showed lots of children who were admitted to a new boarding school in the region, and the journalist said that these are some of the 5000 children whose parents were killed by the ONLF. What do they give credit to the ONLF? Why do they make them look big?" Waxaan yeelaan garan waayey. So, I took him to another direction. "I watched the Aqal-dama series." Let us talk about that. The Aqal-dama (land of blood) is a recent government propaganda against Ginbot 7, OLF and ONLF.

The Zack, Ok. Hadaad iga diiday, we shall see. Few more sunrises and it will all become clear whether talks have started or not. As much as I know, the negotation team isn't yet formed. Markaa ku noqodo dadka xogtaa ku siiyey. What I am telling you is not a hearsay, it is from the horse's mouth if you know what I mean. Che, The Kenyans are asked by Ethiopia. A formal letter to Kibaki arrived and they couldn't refuse. Now, they are trying to include the Brits and others. Jachper, By our best estimates, any self-determination (referndum) will take place minimum after 10 years. By then we hope the Somalia situation will be clearer. Self-determination isn't all about joining Somalia (my wish) or setting up a new republic. The people can even choose to be with Ethiopia if such a union is rewarding. The last outcome is very unlikely though. What matters is for even one day in our lives, we live like a free people. So far we live like ccupied people, who have no voice, no vote, no right in their our lands. I mean in the middle of Dhagaxbur, I want to say something and I have to look around if any xabshi or xabashi informer is next to me!!! That cannot continue! No more Colonel Tesfaye said this, or Ato Alemu said that. It has to be xaaji Ahmed doesn't like this, or Mustafa thinks we should sleep.

Barry Malone is a young scottish who was first employed by a project our office used to fund - Pastoralist Communications Initiative (PCI). I remember he left after disagreeing with the managers (wife and husband), and soon I saw his name on the media. He knows very little about Ethiopia, Somalia or the horn. So, intan uu soo loox jiitay buu war ka dhigaya. He also reports what the Foriegn Ministry approves only.

Where I will viciosuly confront the ONLF and will probably be killed like General George Athol of the SPLA (who was killed by the same comrades he fought side-by-side with months after independence) is the day ONLF tried to carve-out an independent State. We are in this for the cause of joining SOMALIA, and only such a vision can unite all the Somalilgalbeed people. With all of the non-O somalis on my side and at least half of the O's (sensible enough to know the SNM way of looking for a clan state is wise) will side by my side. :D Mr. Somalia, You are a smart guy. Laakin wax kasta ciyaar baad ka daydaa. Arimaha gobolkan aad ka hadlaysid xog fiican kama haysid. Abduallhi Yususf iyo Faroole oo Ethiopia waa dawlad weyn oon daris nahay leh umbaad ka maqashay. Ama ha waynaato ama ha yaraato, I tell you, the liberation struggle can slow down, hibernate, etc etc but the Ethiopian military have failed to crush the ONLF militarily for two decades now. And they have tried everything: - Arming clans against clans - Sealing the border and starving the population - Liyu Police -Mobilising more than 100,000 professional army to root out the ONLF

We feel obliged to correct some of the misfiring our dear comrade The Zack has done here. 1) The talks HAVEN"T begun! 2) All that happened is that Ethiopia for the first time agreed to talk in the presence of a thrid-party and unconditionally (that is without saying ONLF has to accept the Ethiopian Constitution etc etc) 3) A delegation of the Kenyan Government with the offical letter of request from Ethiopia met the ONLF leaders in London 4) The ONLF agreed to the negotiations 5) The Kenyan delegation will inform the ONLF decision to Ethiopian Authorities this week 6) A timeline will be agreed (if the Ethiopians agree to the ONLF conditions of third-party presence beyond Kenya -the British are showing interest in getting involved On the otherhand, the success or failure of the proposed negotations will depend on the assumptions that two sides are making about each other. The Ethiopian Government may feel they have exterted enormous pressure on the ONLF through the Liyu Police and the Diaspora missions and may think the ONLF is edging towards a exit strategy from its struggle. As such, they may be thinking of offering small political concessions such as political power in the region and giving out some ministries in the Federal, diplomats etc etc. That is the offer Meles made fewe years ago when he sent the elders delegation. Because that offer was rejected, he may be prepared to offer something slightly better. But then he maynot. From the ONLF side, there is absoultely NO RISK that they will agree to a deal that will not include self-determination (referendum in 5-10 years) from now. As I write this, we have submitted a POSITION PAPER to the ONLF leadrship and we hear it is fully endorsed. We have urged all efforts be made to hamme out a compromise, but the issue of writing the referendum in the agreement MUST be the red-line that cannot be crossed. In a way, Meles may accpet this time-bound referendum as it doesn't contradict the Ethiopian Constitution: Article 39 has a provision for this. He may think of agreeing to it now, with the calculation that in 10 years time things will change drastically and he will devise a scheme. We don't mind that. In fact, informally, the ONLF can agree to a verbal committment not to invoke the secession agenda as long as the TPLF is in power.If that calms him down, then the ONLF will provide political support to the TPLF and Meles has to worry about the internal rebellion he fears will come from Amhara and Ormos. He will also be happy that he had scored a goal against Isais but bringing ONLF home. In return, all ONLF soldiers will be absored by the regional government, ONLF will agree to the Ethiopian Constitution much the same way the SPLM did for the CPA. And when the time is right, the regional parliament will invoke the referndum agreement and will involve the gurantors. The very fact such a deal is agreed to by the TPLF is a massive victory, regardless of whether it is achieved in 10 years or not. It means there will be a legal and historical refernce point from which future generations can the independence drive forward. Burahaadeer, I can tell you the issue of Diredhabe is included in the list of the items for negotiations. And also the lands taken by the Oromos from other Somalis. I thought that was asking too much at tis stage, but the ONLF leadership insist they will have to be included. On a lighter note, there are suggestions I am included in the negotiation team and if that happens you may soon see the man himself lynching the TPLF goons verbally in the negotiation table. We have suggested at least 4-5 people fluent in Amharic or Tigrinya should accompany the ONLF team at the negotiations. We understand the non-verbal gestures of the highlanders better.

Duufaan, That is not our assessment of the power balance in Ethiopia, and we think we know the insides of Ethiopia better. The problem with people like Dufaan is that they see an 80 million monolithic Ethiopia. The reality is far from that. The inability of the ONLF to make substantial gains is more to do with internal disorganisation and division than Ethiopian might. If as expected in the coming few years, the Amhara and the Oromo resistance grows (and it will -you have read it here first), the weakening Ethiopia will suit our goals. All we need to do is make sure we are not annihilated for few more years. Things will change soon. Ngonge, few elders made to sing with the SNM at gunpoint literally do not represent the aspirations of Awdal and SSC. They saved their clans at the time from SNM vengence. Now, they are stating their inner feelings and desire. Mr. Somalia, you will see the South Sudan model accepted by Ethiopia in the not-so-distant future. The mentality of exaggerating Ethiopia's might and forgetting its gigantic vulnerabilities is a common thing we see on the Somalis in the Somalia proper. Literally, they urinate on their pants on hearing the name Ethiopia. They should go and see the fear in the eyes of Ethiopian army in Qabridahar and Dhagaxbuur. Only a year ago, whole brigades were wiped out on a broad daylight in Dagahmadow and Galaalshe. Most somalis in Somalia proper would simply thing this could not take place. We often joke about it among ourseleves, those of us who speak Amharic and lived in the Somaligalbeed region. Even answering an Ethiopian in tough language is taken as sucidal by those who fear them. But we have done it day in day out. Edit:- by the way, the official census says 62% of Ethiopians are christian, 32 muslims and the rest animist and different traditional faiths such as the waqa-fatta of some Oromos. This is the official. Having travelled through out Ethiopia (and I know this census could be politcised), I tend to think the muslims at maximum can not go beyond 40%. Apart from the Oromos, the largest muslim population is the Somalis. While 90% of the Amharas ( 25 million), 50% of the Oromos (18 million) add up to 43 million. Add about 7 million of the Southern nations ( out of the 13 total poulation, about 6 are muslims -gurage, silte, Alaba etc). You already have 50 million. And the rest of the small nationalities cancel each one out. So, I believe the christians are 60%. Dufaan's figures are hearsay!

Somalia;768185 wrote: I haven't been to the moon neither and I know what it looks If you know more about the moon than those who landed on it, then you are for sure a genius.

Guulo, cut this crap about same sex nonesense! SOL'ers represent a tiny fraction of the somali population. And even here you have people disgusted by this kind of stories. It depends on your audience. If it is for non-somali audience (rather non-African I would say) go ahead, and try your luck. If it is for Somali or African audience, it won't fly at all. And I see lots of more potent and relevant themes that would interest somalis. Just because the west talk about the same sex things doesn't mean we should mimic and follow suit. Nin-Yaaban, Mr. Somalia ka hadh. He is right. I am also a bit tolerant about women-to-women thing than male-to-male. I don't have the same revulsion when I hear about the two.

With all due respect to the opinions of some people here, the timing of the struggle is something more mature heads discussed and agreed on. It is not for juvenile online persons who have yet to see an accacia tree let alone know about the region to judge whether liberation struggle should start after roads are built or not. Refugees are a byproduct of any struggle. It is to be expected and it is to be tolerated. You cannot defer struggle against arbitrary arrest, rape and extrajudicial killings. These injustices have to be faced right at the time they take place. Duufaan also seems to live in another planet. The ONLF did not sign a peace agreement with Ethiopia. Individuals went ther and got some lands, no political concessions whatsoever. The struggle is not about roads etc. It is about self-determination, a higher ideal.It is about refusing to be told who to be, who to elect and how to live by marauding Tigres. Ironically, many people believe the 'development concessions' the region is getting is because of the ONLF struggle. Burahadeer, the O clan is between 50-55% of the population in the region for your information. That is from authoritative source like me. if you ask some others, they will tell you it is 65-70%.

Passerby, Just because we stand on the opposite sides of the fence doesn't mean we should sell false propaganda as real news. What I am telling you is the reality. The kids took money, spent it without the knowledge of their colleagues in the Oga.den student forum (OSF). Some had even stayed in expensive hotels in US and done some nasty things which it is not necessary to talk about. Then, Admiral intervened. His opinion was they be forgiven and they handover whatever they had to the OSF. He didn't like the idea of discipling them. He feared they will do what they later did, which is to cross over. But it became untenable because the rest of the group refused to accpet anything less than immeditate firing of these kids. There was general anger against what they did while supposedly working for a noble idea of exposing Tigre's genocide in the region. They were young and they couldn't handle the consequences of their indiscretion. In hindsight, the harsh treatment against them by the general pro-ONLF people was never good. I was one of those who thought they should just be pardoned and left alone. But I can tell you those who lived close to them didn't want to see them at all. Apart from the money, one reason was because several elderly people didn't like the way these kids were dealing with girls and thought this is shaming the OSF. That is the truth if you want it. If you are hellbent on heaping lampoon on the ONLF for political purposes, then follow the story you posted. Criminal, terrorist blah blah are just labels. Mandela was a terrorist too at a time. And your TPLF had a uniquely harsh name during their struggle. I think you remember "ye inaat tuut nakaash" (biters of their own mothers breast), asgantaay, wonbade etc etc. Isn't it surprising your guys are doing the same after two decades?

These kids collected some money in the name of the displaced refugees and refused to be accountable. They colleagues disciplined them and they crossed over. They are turncoats. Not that they matter. Their debauchery even when they were singing for ONLF was a constant annoyance to many. One of them have even impregnated two girls and refused to own up. A week's propaganda for the woyannes but there is no damage they can do. These things happen in a struggle. Remember Abraham Yayeh and Gebremedhin, passerby? They were not kids but central committee members of the TPLF. Yet, the guy who used to pay them from Mengistu's office was in Zimbabwe (working for an NGO). I met him and learned that it was hard currency that did the job of turning them against TPLF two years before the TPLF took Addis Ababa. The guy was a cashier in the PM's office then - his name is Ato Zewdu.

This is a very weak argument that we face. First, if the Front cannot convince its grassroots and rank and file the virtues of embracing the bigger ideal, it can be accused of following the mass and not leading. Second, there is no evidence that the O will leave the organisation just because the name is changed. Already the cadres telling the fighters that they are fighitng for Somalinimo in a land called 'Oga.denia'. All it takes is to tell them a name change is necessiated because of the present challenges. Third, even now, while the Front has a clan name, there are some from the same clan who abandoned it. So, few more people leaving will not be a new thing. I don't share Abokor's assessment. And while returning the favour for my attack on SNM is fair, what he wrote there is trash. The ONLF, even with its weaknesses, is a bona fide liberation movement with genuine aspirations of freedom for all Somalis in the land they call by the wrong name. If it is about O hegemony, there is no need for the gun. They could just have joined Iley's crew.

The issue is not about if or whether others can join the struggle or whether they feel sufficiently oppressed to support the liberation struggle. The issue is who does the ONLF want to liberate? If it is the O clan, then the current approach is right. If the ONLF wants to claim the whole map of Somaligalbeed, then they cannot rely on just one clan. If the silence of the non-O clans mean they want to be part of Ethiopia, then the ONLF can do nothing, but it then must not claim their areas. I strongly feel the ONLF must stop all the excuses put forth for maintaining a divisive name, and must start changing before it asks others to change. Afterall, as the leading liberation front of the region, the onus is on it to bring the others onboard. I lost three hours of my sleeping time last night debating this matter with some senior leaders and the depth of dogmatism on their part is astounding. They must change this name FIRST, and we shall talk about the rest of the issues afterwards. As we stand, those who do not want the liberation fight use the name as scapegoat for their inaction, while ONLF keeps on using the inaction of others to promote a divisive clan name.