^^^^ He got you there NG. The "official announcements" were afterthoughts and PR damage control. That you choose to go with them is a little disturbing. And I thought this was the point you're trying to make: The idea that Ethiopia has come to Somalia of its own free will and only for its own interests is a myth spread by those opposing that country And the point you make on the resistance being strictly in Xamar or the south, well that is a well made point. Except it misses the larger point namely Puntland and Somaliland and how comfortable they are in Ethiopian pockets. The "South" is the last remaining land with "free" Somalis. Take that awoowe.

Originally posted by Ebyan: I spoke too soon. It seems like the pseudo-intellectuals on this forum have freed themselves from the mental shackles of qabil. My comments still ring true for the average Somali. No list, eh? I thought so.

^^^ Yeah and here's one of his other most famous quotes: "I kill a [TFG stooge] for fun, but for a green card, I gonna carve him up real nice."

^^^^ He was Cubano, like me.

Originally posted by Northerner: What is in Peru i wonder? Machu Picchu is in Peru. I'd kill Ngonge and his entire subclan for that ambassadorship.

Originally posted by Ebyan: What has Somalia done for you? Personally, I can't think of any thing. You and 10 million other people. Originally posted by Ebyan: My clan, on the other hand, has done a lot for me and for that I am ever grateful. There's nothing wrong with loving your tribe. Dictionary.com defines "a lot" as "very many, a large number." I won't embarrass you anymore than you've already done to yourself in this thread but kindly share with us a few of those things your tribe has done for you. Write up a list of, say, 5-10 distinct and non trivial items. Items that can easily be associated to something a tribe normally does for its members. For example, if you ever went to a tribe's school or after-school tutoring program, that would count as an item. If you've ever been to a homeless shelter run strictly by and for your tribesmen, that too would count as an item. A medical clinic run by your tribe's doctors for the benefit of your sick tribesmen. Got a loan from your tribe's bank or credit union that specializes in making small business loans and home mortgages to members of your tribe. You get the idea. Going to a wedding where all your tribesman show up and hitching a ride home later that night doesn't count. Mommy calling up her nephews to help you move from Dixon to Mississauga doesn't count. Attending a clan meeting and getting that irrational warm and fuzzy feeling that you share much DNA with everyone in the room (though they may as well be chimps for you share 98% of your DNA with those), doesn't count. And the list goes on. Get to it. And don't come back before you have that list.

Originally posted by chubacka: An in a school u cnt take other holidays other dan the ones dey give u... Neway I quickly saw my mum at lunch, sed quick goodbye, she prob on da plane now. What school do you attend where they teach this peculiar style of writing?

^^^^ You really didn't have to do this. Originally posted by NGONGE: Still, this is not about MY position on this affair. This is about simple logic. If you BELIEVE in Somaliland and consider it to be a sovereign, independent nation then you really should not bother engaging on arguments justifying the existence of that nation. To do so is to give such arguments substance and confirm that there is room for negotiation. What if an argument defies "simple logic"? Should it still be entertained? These are rhetorical questions awoowe.

^^^^ I figured he was on the subway heading home with no access to the internet. He'll show up soon enough. And the nick is Castro, woman!

^^^ In addition to being a master of the pen, Ngonge is too smart for any would-be McCarthy impersonator. He knows what time it is. He also knows where he stands and he needs no one's affirmation. I spoke on his behalf out of my own volition.

^^^^ Since the debate is not going on where it matters most, in Somaliland, you're right, it doesn't matter what we say on this forum. Originally posted by Baruud: Secondly, what does it tell you, when a large group of people welcome the an idea, like seccesion without a hesitation. The people are/were in full support of seccesion, else it wouldn't have been so popular without them. I hate to use the neocon-Iraq example again but it fits very well in this case. You must know that the support for the war in the US, well after many of the reasons given for it were discredited, remained very high. In other words, populations are easily manipulated in the short term for the detriment of their own well being. Somalilanders, the people, are no different. All you need is to have a boogey man to scare them with and they follow you like sheep. It works every time and everywhere.

Originally posted by Baruud: You may not find it on a paper written before 1991 that Somaliland was going to succeed, it has always been a secret between the SNM ranks. That being said, as Suldaanka said the disafication about the union from Somalilanders was clear from the get go, when the South took both posts, the Presidency and PM spot, when the deal was, that the south should have taken the Presidency and Somaliland, the Prime minister spot. It didn't happen, disafications started from that point on. And many somalilanders wanted to get out of the union. Keeping something a secret only to hijack the agenda later reeks of a conspiracy led by a few elitist individuals (not unlike the neocon agenda for Iraq) and is hardly a defense for the legitimacy of Somaliland. Be careful what you write on here. And I think you mean 'secede' not succeed. The latter, no one is disputing. Somaliland, sans the secession, is a shining example for all Somalis everywhere.

^^^^ It may be too late but that little story of yours is hardly applicable here and may be a distortion of the issue. Somaliland is indeed here and I reckon, to stay. But it would be entirely foolhardy of us to engage in a legitimacy discussion when the basis of this legitimacy is quite flimsy and out right bordering on fraud. Let each of us decide for him or herself how they see this and move on. I thought I had Somaliland settled in my mind until the recent invasion of Somalia and now I'm beginning to see it for what it really is: another external tool to divide Somalis. Nomadique, I've read about the said SNM founder who thought secession was a mistake and I can't see how anyone could prove him wrong on this. Ma calayna.

Still working on it Suldaanow. Do you dispute anything I said up there or did it just bring a smile to your face? 1991 might have been the year that Somaliland's independence was declared How long was it in the pipeline then Suldaanow? In other words, was the declaration a spontaneous knee-jerk reaction to some event or series of events? Why had no one ever heard the word secession prior to 1991? Clearly a resistance movement was heard of but one that had no stated goals of secession. And if secession was the first item on the SNM's manifesto, why did it keep it a secret until the famous "declaration of independence"? It seems the more I dig, the less justification for secession I find atheer. What I am finding is the fervor and zeal some Somalilanders exhibit towards secession seems a bit irrational. In other words, this level of support cannot be explained by the reasons brought forward for secession. I'll keep digging though, for my own sake of course. And if you ask nicely, I might tell you what I find.

Posted on May 8, 2007 By Amy Goodman On Saturday, May 5, Anthony Mitchell died in the crash of Kenyan Airways Flight 507, which killed all 114 people on board. Based in Nairobi, he was an Associated Press reporter who had recently broken a story on secret prisons in Ethiopia and the U.S. involvement in the detention and interrogation of prisoners there. The world has lost another journalist, one who was taking the necessary risks to get at the heart of the complex and often ignored story of Africa. Most Americans know of Somalia as the setting for the feature film “Black Hawk Down.” This film depicted the failed 1993 U.S. military assault on Mogadishu. Eighteen U.S. soldiers died. Less well known is that more than 1,000 Somalis also were killed. Somalia, which had been mostly ignored by the U.S. media, was briefly in the news as the U.S.-backed Ethiopian military overthrew the Islamic Courts Union, which had been controlling most of Somalia. Mitchell’s exposé detailed the fate of some of the hundreds of thousands of refugees. They were fleeing war, but to the United States they were possible al-Qaida operatives who had found a safe haven in Somalia. According to Mitchell, dozens of refugees were “transferred secretly and illegally in recent months from Kenya and Somalia to Ethiopia, where they are kept without charge or access to lawyers and families.” In his groundbreaking report, Mitchell wrote, “CIA and FBI agents hunting for al-Qaida militants in the Horn of Africa have been interrogating terrorism suspects from 19 countries held at secret prisons in Ethiopia, which is notorious for torture and abuse.” The U.S. State Department documented Ethiopia’s use of torture, and the FBI admitted to Mitchell that it was interrogating prisoners there. Several prisoners have since been released, including 17-year-old Safia Benaouda, a Swedish citizen. She was the first to report that uniformed U.S. military personnel arrested her and directed the Kenyan soldiers who took her captive. Amir Mohamed Meshal is also being held there. The 24-year-old U.S. citizen is from Tinton Falls, N.J. His family’s lawyer, Jonathan Hafetz of the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law, told me: “The U.S. admits that the FBI has interrogated him. The Red Cross and family have been denied access. We can’t get a lawyer to see him because we don’t know where he’s being held. It has been over two months, with no charge. We are calling for congressional hearings.” Salim Lone, a columnist with the Daily Nation in Kenya, knows about terrorism. He was the U.N. spokesman in Iraq when the U.N. compound there was bombed in 2003. After the U.S. launched airstrikes against Somalia last January, Lone told me, “The world does want to help the U.S. end terror, but the way the U.S. repeatedly is doing it, from Iraq and Afghanistan to now in Somalia, this will increase the amount of terrorism that exists in the world.” Make no mistake about it, the Horn of Africa is in the cross hairs of the United States. There is oil in Sudan, Somalia and Ethiopia. The New York Times reported that after the U.S.-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia, the U.S. allowed Ethiopia to buy arms from North Korea even though the U.S. had just won tough U.N. sanctions against North Korea. The Pentagon recently announced the formation of Africom, the “new unified, combatant command” for Africa. Columnist Salim Lone’s response? “It’s the last thing Africa needs. ... It’s going to militarize Africa; it’s going to inflame conflict. There is so much anger against the United States, especially if it’s in the Horn of Africa, which is primarily Muslim.” Marc Lacey covered Africa for The New York Times from 2001 to 2006: “Africa correspondents spend a lot of time in the air, often on old planes. I think crashes are in the back of every reporter’s mind. Anthony Mitchell was a fearless reporter. He understood the complexity of the continent and cared.” Our exchange with Africa must involve more than oil, guns and secret prisons. Once people know, they care. Shining a light, journalists provide understanding. We need more coverage of Africa, from African journalists and from reporters like Anthony Mitchell. Amy Goodman is the host of “Democracy Now!,” a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on 500 stations in North America. TruthDig

^^^^ Camir, among others, is someone who insists the invasion of Ethiopia was a legal invitation despite clear and indisputable evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: To be sure Somaliland did not cause the political and clannish ills that caused the demise of Somali state. But to ignore the nature of this movement is simply wrong. What can one do about it? Not much it seems. But talk about it. Point out its holes. And put it in the context of Ethiopia’s regional ambitions. There's little that is distinct about Somaliland. Not the people, the culture, the suffering or even the ideology. They (the elites, elders, or whatever you want to call them) just took it to another level. You may have seen this but recently, I tried to find out when 'secession' first came into the lexicon and it seems the whole idea was cooked up in a short period of time then sold to the populace. At the time, conditions were ripe, I believe, for the people to accept it and those who didn't decided fighting it wasn't really worth the trouble given the state of the rest of the nation. Somalilanders may or may not be interested in talking about the inception of their yet to be born nation, but if I were a die hard secessionist, I'd like to find out how I ended being one. Elders and elites may only fool the population for so long and if Somaliland is simply a racket, as some of us believe, then it's only a matter of time before the majority will realize they're being distracted with a failed ideology instead of receiving a decent regional government that's not in cahoots with Ethiopia. Moving on. This issue of secession is but one of the symptoms of our disease. Different Somali groups using Ethiopia, as Geel_Jire eloquently explains, to fight, conquer, occupy or secede from their own is another symptom. The mistrust, the selfishness, the ignorance, the myopia and last but not least, the racism of our people towards each other is the disease. Somaliland is but one of the symptoms and the bandwidth that's spent on it seems way out of proportion to its significance.

^^^^ Atheer Xiin, do you have any idea how far we are from unity? The Somaliland issue is the symptom not the disease. Getting all hot and bothered about the symptom while ignoring the cause doesn't impress me much. The lack of unity we have is not a geographical problem of borders but an ideological one of clan allegiances.

Originally posted by Kashafa: Somalinimo-on-steroids More like Somalinimo on crack. 'Me' is shining the spotlight on the wrong object at the wrong time. A deliberate, but failed, distraction tactic, if you will. He would make McCarthy proud. Somaliland is what it is. Get over it people.

Written by Chris Floyd Tuesday, 08 May 2007 What's happening these days in Somalia, the land that Time (and Newsweek) forgot? Well, after killing several hundred civilians and driving more than 350,000 people from their homes during last month's Terror War blitzkrieg in Mogadishu, George Bush's proxy "regime change" forces (including the brutal, American-trained military of the Ethiopian invaders) have installed an unelected warlord as the new mayor of the capital, McClatchy Newspapers reports. Mohamed Dheere is very much in the classic "strongman" mode so beloved by America's dispensers of liberation and democracy over the past century. He comes to his new post from his former gangland turf in the northern town of Jowhar, "where he presided over a famously ruthless extortion network," McClatchy noted. Yes, from Somaza to Saddam, from Marcos to Mubarak, this is our kind of guy. Dheere's expertise in extortion will no doubt prove invaluable in his new role as a greasy wheel in the great global shakedown machine known as the "War on Terror," where Bush and his button men travel the world, threatening to kneecap any weak country that won't cough up "oil laws" or "basing agreements" on demand. Naturally, in keeping with the inch-think paint of piety required by all players in the Terror War, the ruthless extortioner Dheere repented of all the crimes he committed to reach the top and "asked Somalis to forgive him for his past misdeeds" when he took office last week, McClatchy reports. And just to make sure they do forgive him, he has been given a helpmeet for his spiritual labors: "another former warlord, Abdi Hasan 'Qaybdid' Awale," who was appointed national police chief by the unelected prime minister of the Bush-backed "transitional government," Ali Mohamed Gedi. Chief Awale, like many of Bush's new allies in Somalia, was once a leading figure in the "Black Hawk Down" faction of warlords that mutilated and humiliated U.S. soldiers during America's previous foray into the territory. But of course, he too has been been forgiven for his past misdeeds by the Great White Father in Washington. Indeed, Awale has come in so far from the Black Hawk cold that he was put on the CIA payroll last year -- alongside Mayor Dheere, McClatchy reports. Your tax dollars at work. But all this talk of repentance and forgiveness should not be mistaken as a sign of weakness on the part of the Unitary Executive's satraps in Somalia. Perish the thought! "The appointment of these new leaders is not to go easy on the people of Mogadishu, but to face the hard task of ensuring and securing a peaceful environment," said the unelected prime minister of the unelected mayor and his CIA colleague. In other words, they will be kicking *** and taking names -- of all those too weak to kick back -- in the best Terror War tradition. Chris Floyd

^^^ Very interesting, Wisdom. So if Somaliland is SNM version 2.0 and Puntland is SSDF version 2.0, are the Islamic Courts the USC v2.0? If so, why do the first two instances of evolution demand reverence while the third association is the object of much scorn? What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander, no?

^^^ lol. That's cute. May be it's "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me thrice, I must be Somali." The SSDF seems to have just evaporated into thin air. Abdullahi Yusuf still spends much of his time in Addis Ababa and the "semi-autonomous" north eastern part of Somalia is now lovingly called Puntland. Was this naming just a tit-for-tat of Somaliland picking up a new name and declaring independence? Or was there more logic to it?

^^^^ What happened to the SSDF? Was it disbanded? The SSDF didn't have quite the military successes of the SNM or the USC but they may have saved their efforts for political success. Also, Mengistu preferred the SSDF to the SNM because, we're told, he found it easier to manipulate the SSDF better than he could the SNM. Apparently, the SNM would not listen to many of his demands and were eventually kicked out of Ethiopia. Did the SSDF ever leave Ethiopia? It seems the Ethiopians were pitting one Somali group/clan against the other even as far back as the 70's and 80's, may be even longer. Is there no limit to our gullibility?

Here's off-topic post #5. Originally posted by Lake: The Somalis want to see Yey and Geedi hanged before we can move on I know, I know, it's a repeat of off-topic post #1. But it's so good.

In the weeks following Siad Barre's overthrow, the SNM considered its relations with the non-***** clans of the north to be more problematic than its relations with the provisional government. The SDA, supported primarily by the Gadabursi clan, and the relatively new United Somali Front (USF), formed by members of the Iise clan, felt apprehension at the prospect of SNM control of their areas. During February there were clashes between SNM and USF fighters in Saylac and its environs. The militarily dominant SNM, although making clear that it would not tolerate armed opposition to its rule, demonstrated flexibility in working out local power-sharing arrangements with the various clans. SNM leaders sponsored public meetings throughout the north, using the common northern resentment against the southern-based central government to help defuse interclan animosities. The SNM administration persuaded the leaders of all the north's major clans to attend a conference at Burao in April 1991, at which the region's political future was debated. Delegates to the Burao conference passed several resolutions pertaining to the future independence of the north from the south and created a standing committee, carefully balanced in terms of clan representation, to draft a constitution. The delegates also called for the formation of an interim government to rule the north until multiparty elections could be held. Read the entire. It seems to suggest there was a larger consensus over secession than many currently believe.