^ You're very convincing, atheer. I'll dodge the question by choosing one of Frankfurt's own definitions (I tend to agree with it too): BS is deception (on some level) perpetrated for a variety of motives. The perpetrator may or may not consciously be aware of the deception, however. I believe Mutakalim was the one who brought this book to my attention in this very forum. I'm not sure he did so because I tried to throw some BS in his direction.

^ Not gone just yet. Great book. Can be read in 2 hours but very interesting. We could all use some of its insights. Now I'm really gone.

Since you've mentioned the circumstance in which a Somali woman can be forced (by say Islamic Organizations operating in Somalia)to choose to wear the Jilbaab Paragon, choice and force are incongruous terms, saaxib. When one comes in through the door, the other goes out of the window. And that is speaking in general. in the interest of logic: can something that came about as a result of choice (see your second point) be used as a 'tool of oppression' ? If so, can it not be true that one can again choose to abandon that which she chose? Do bear with me, please. Obviously not. If it were a choice, then force (and oppression) would have no play in it. Remember, saaxib, to choose means to either accept, select or prefer above others. To force, means to compel, inflict or impose. At no time did I suggest the wearer of such a hijaab (by choice or otherwise) is the object of mockery. The imposers, where there is no choice, are the object of my grievance. P.S. I am on record indicating objection based on looks and fashionability is weak and misplaced. P.P.S. Good Paragon, with this, I'm offline till after Ciid. Ciid wanaagsan kuli.

Originally posted by Paragon: Castro, I thought we were talking about the Somali version of the Jilbaab, not the Saudi's or any other version. Somalia does not exist in vaccuum saaxib. What we were talking about is the element of choice, a rather non-geographrical entity. And that we were talking about the Somali version of the Jilbaab in post-1990s, in which there is no overarching authority in a position to impose rules upon citizen's dresscodes. Waxaad ila aadey France iyo Sacuudiga adna When there is no rule of law (though our former dictatorship can hardly be associated with law and order), certain segments of society step up to fill that void. In addition to providing some security, these segments (often Islamic associations, Al-Ittihad comes to mind but not exclusively) provide much needed social and economical services to society. It's not a great leap in imagination to speculate that in exchange for these goods and services, there may be an element of "education" of the society involved. I'm sure Islamic organizations have done much to relieve the misery of Somalis post 1990. I'm not so sure that assistance came with little or no strings attached. It may not rise to the level of outright oppression as I alluded (for I have no evidence of that) but it probably qualifies as a form of coercion. If one is in need and the only available providers are Islamic organizations who would put up a sign as the one CW posted, that person would be compelled to conform just to eat, for instance. I went to Kenya and I was surprised to see Somalis there (where there is a state that use to intentionally discourage even Xijaab in schools), embraced the Jilbaab in proportions I couldn't imagine. There is no doubt choice exists for some. That much is clear to me now. When someone in Ottawa battles the snides of red-neck Canadians in the harsh winter cold wearing a jilbaab (the one that looks like a tent), I wouldn't think they were simply wearing that to defy society and avoid looking for work (though some may be doing it for that reason). It is when you are in an environment (lawful or lawless) and that dress is required to perform basic day to day living such as shopping in the market or going to a park or even going to work, and a person is not interested in wearing it (for whatever reason), there choices are limited by the pressures they face from society.

Originally posted by Kashanre: My suspicion is some are agnostic, clearly it shows and Allah (SWT) will have the final judgement of them... You probably suspect we all know each other too. And we gather online and conspire to put down Islam. You also suspect we are on some Zionist agency's payroll. Grow up ninyahow. After 7 pages you're still to make a statement, ask a question or rebutt someone's post. What in God's name are you doing in this thread?

Originally posted by Kashanre: Blah blah blah Hypocrites ... blah blah blah the Day blah blah blah Dajaal . حتى انت يا خشانرى؟

Originally posted by Curling Waterfall: Will the real jilbaab please stand out? CW, I can't believe that image you posted. An image of a green hill and one of a fiery hell? Where is it from? Here's a rough translation of what the list says (for those who don't read Arabic): Conditions of the Hijab: 1) It must cover the entire body including the hands and the face (According to those of knowledge) 2) It must be loose and not tight so as not to describe a woman's body [not show curvature]. 3) It must be thick [not see-through] to not show what's underneath. 4) The material must not itself be ornamented. 5) It must not have any perfume smell. 6) It must not resemeble men's clothing 7) It must not resemble the infidel clothing. 8) It must not be a dress of celebrity [i'm not sure what this means, it may be a reference to brand-name clothing]. Though the caption between the two images (of heaven and hell) reads: "choose for yourself", I'm not sure what choice is available to anyone who would face such posters in public places. Be that as it may, for those who willingly choose the dress on the right (the one leading to heaven), our support is necessary. Finally, the caption at the bottom is a "special" message for men that reads: O man, do not be a "dayuus" [probably meaning cross-dresser or homo]. If you're not a man, dress like one. Ah, these Saudis, they crack me up walaahi. That image on the right (the one of Darth Vader) is a tough way to go through life. No way Islam would condone that rubbish. The religion is ease, not dis-ease.

Paragon, not even. The tent is as ugly as it is foreign. However, it is a choice for some (or all, who knows?). Protesting that it is fashion faux pas is weak (and misplaced). Is it used as a tool of oppression? Sure. How widespread is that oppression? I don't know. Do those who wear it (by choice) deserve my support? Yes. Blessed, point taken. Originally posted by Miskiin-Macruuf-Aqiyaar: Igaartaan taloow manooshahay? Hadee nooshahayna saan ma u egtahay wali? I hope she is alive but highly doubt she looks like that still. She'd be older and, naturally, more conservatively dressed.

Originally posted by Rahima: What kind of an objection is that? A weak one at best. No one is forcing you to wear it, but leave those who chose to wear it alone. Done.

Originally posted by Kashanre: Granted he is adept at his art, but I don't believe he has had any impact on the Somali political arena of 2005. We, including him, are watchers while the game is played in the nation itself. What do you mean by impact atheer? Does the number of road blocks a warlord owns count as impact? What about the number of speeches? How about the number of photo-ops a certain political figure has participated in? It's clear that Mr. Ammir uses his talent to raise awareness of the plight of Somalis. The impact he has is directly proportional to how many receive his message and reflect upon it. The pen (in this case the brush) has always been mightier than the sword, atheer. You come across as a (shadow) sword-wielding kinda lad, if I'm not mistaken. As for the game being played back home, well, even a xaar-walwaal would call his activities a trade.

^ Blessed was speaking in hyperboles, I hope. She couldn't possibly find what I wrote that intoxicating.

Originally posted by Blessed: Castro, What are you on Atheer? You seem to have an image of Somali women as being weak (as if). Your last piece and socod badnes had me loling. Glad to provide some comic relief for you, atheer. I'd appreciate it if you could tell which phrase or paragraph you found particularly amusing. Also, how did you come to the conclusion that I have "an image of Somali women being weak"? It's now the second time I read this about me and I'm curious which vibe I'm giving out that would send this message. That would be great, atheer. P.S. I'm drug-free atheer.

Originally posted by Rahima: Castro, what Somalis (generalizing of course) pre-1990 considered the hijab was not the proper hijab. The thin Somali garbasar or malkhabad just covering the hair with the neck and chest exposed were considered hijab. That wasn't the 'hijab' back then and you know better than to call it that. The malkhabad was not an outdoor apparel but an indoor one. And is this the sum of your response to how Somalis understood and practiced Islam for centuries prior to the civil war? Is it not more than just coincidence that a failure, at every level, of this society after 1990 has more to do with the tent than any new or elightened understanding of Islam? Is this not an irrational response to trauma? Are women not being made to bear an inordinate share of the blame for the sins of a nation? When all else fails, wrap up the women for they are the ones who wreak all havoc. What really gets me is how some view this as a choice. We all know that neither fulfills the conditions of hijab. The issue is not whether a garbasar or malkhabad fulfill the conditions of hijaab but rather if the so-called tent is a foreign and sledge-hammer solution to swatting a fly, so to speak. The tent is a symbol, among others, that show a society that is regressing into gender inequality and oppression. Let me give you an example- my mother in the year 1981 was studying at Lafoole. A heartfelt anecdote, atheer, still one with no relation to the issue at hand. A red herring, if you will. All that it shows is the brutality of a regime fearful of any ideology that could rise up against it and topple it. Somalis in many ways are more screwed up now than pre-1990, but one thing they have generally gotten right is the hijaab- you don't have to like it, but it fulfills the requirements of hijab. Atheer there is no like or dislike of religious requirements. Now, you still maintain the tent fulfills a religious requirement when you've failed to show how it is the only one that does so. What makes it the preferred solution to hijab requirements? And why is it not adopted by the majority of Muslims on earth (except in societies where oppression of women is rampant)? As for the word ‘tent’ brother it is said in a tone of yassid, a put down when in fact people have a choice to adorn it. Atheer when you understand it's not a tenet of Islam (the tent and wearing it, that is) you will see that any mockery, even rebuke, is appropriate for it then boils down to an impractical and poor sense of fashion. Islam is beyond mockery, Muslims aren't. And Muslims who do things in the name of Islam without understanding how this is Islamic are inviting more than just mockery. Somali women can wear tents and even wrap themselves in tape as a mummy. It is freedom they have that no one can take away. Unfortunately, few realize that the tent is the antithesis of freedom and equality that Islam so honorably advocates.

Mea Culpa II

Mea Culpa I

Sanad waliba hoodiyo, Hawl iyo dhibaatiyo Wuxuu hadimo leeyahay Waa laga helaayo Hadhow lagu xusuustaa Kii noo haggaagee Noqo loo han weyn yahay Noqo loo han weyn yahay

It's quite unfortunate that no one informed our former dictator that smoking is such a terrible habit. In addition to costing a small fortune, it is known to cause lung, throat and intestinal cancer. On the other hand, and unlike what good Femme Fatale insisted, I believe the 'tent' is not here to stay. Essentially, since the pendulum has swung so far to one side, it will have to come back to the middle (the equilibrium point) and Somalis will be good muslims without having to wear impractical and forcibly imposed clothing from foreign cultures. To Rahima: atheer, I reject your argument that the tent (what you mistakenly refer to as the hijab) was knowledge Somalis lacked prior to 1990. What you're saying, basically, is that for the centuries that Somalis were muslim, they were ignorant of Islam and they, conveniently, and rapidly, acquired this knowledge in the past 15 years? Do you see the flaw in your argument atheer? And referring to the tent, Khayr wrote: Summer heat or the scorching, unendless and constant renewal of the Infinite Torture of Hell. :confused: Atheer, use this fear tactic with those who have no knowledge of their deen. You'd have made one heck of a catholic priest.

^ Fair enough Rahima. Neanderthals was inappropriate, I admit. But a tent is not a far fetched description or label, however disparaging you may find it. Obviously, my contention is that it's less Islamic and more cultural and geographical in nature. If not, how do you suppose then, that within 2 short decades, we've suddenly become more faithful and more Islamic? Is the "tent" not a response to trauma (civil war, displacement, etc..)? A symptom of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome? I'm outta here now. Will return later.

Caption three: A little to the left... A little to the right... Stop. Ahh... There.. Now lick it!

^ Maya atheer. No disparagment at all. Either we were doing something "wrong" then or we're wrong now. We can't be Islamically correct in both cases. That's all I'm trying to point out. Xaasha lilah inaan diinta wax kasheego ninyahow. Dhaqan iyo deen are not one and the same thing good Ducaqabe. However, this topic has been discussed ad nauseam here so I'll bow out.

Originally posted by Northerner: Anyway, waan seexanayaye, sirirteyaan midhigta kagelaya Sirir? What the hell is that? It's sariir, an originally Arabic word. And you live in the middle east? How? Sirir on the other hand is to knock out. As in: Hooyo, bisadii madaxaan ku dhiftoo, way sirirtay. (Mommy, I hit the cat on the head and knocked her out) War maxaa af-Soomaaligii la iloobay. Ya khasaara.

^ One of my favorite sayings, for sure. I giggle like a little kid whenever I say it out loud.

Originally posted by Rahima: Those 'tents' castro are part of our religion. And they weren't in 1978, atheer?

Cadho kulaha. That's cute. I was hoping for a few of the tough words. They usually come at the end of each sentence. I have them in bold below. Do you know the history of this song? Anyone whom Sahra Axmad sang a song for and turned her down should be beheaded. Ducaqabe, I'd kill Brad for Angelina. It is certainly justifiable homicide. Here's the whole song, Blessed. Appreciate the effort by the way. This song (nearly) brings tears to my eyes. laqanyada jacaylkiyo lurka caashaq kululaa ruuxdaadu lahatayoo kugu laadey ba'anaa waxan hadalba ii labin sida la iigu kaa ladhey hadii aad lix goor noqo itidhaa laba iyo toban naftan libiqsaneysee laabaneysa leedhe ladanow miyaan la'aantaa aniguu ladayaa hurdada laan daaqo geeluba labigii jarka u dhow intuu laac isleeyahay saw looli kama dhaco waxan looba wada hadal adigey is lugooyee anna laabta kaa jarey maad noqotid looxaa ama lebenka daaraha inaan laaxi kaa dhigo lunsaney adaa laliyee niyadaa soo leef hawadaa lab haween ku taagsadey ku lixaadso dumar yidhi legdayoo ku jiifoo ka lib dooney ba'anaa waxan looba liil galin libiqsiga aan kuu qabo hadii aad lix goor noqo itidhaa laba iyo boqol naftan libiqsaneysee laabaneysa leedhe ladanow miyaan la'aantaa aniguu ladayaa hurdada inanyahay lug iyo faras lalabaha colaadeed lib hadey ku diriraan saw luun ma gawraco ana libinta caashaqu markuu igu lixaadsadey waran iga likeysoo ii liici weydee maa luxudka lagu dhigo inaan kuugu liilsado lunsaney adaa laliyee niyadaa soo leef hawadaa

^ It's actually a nice breakup/divorce song.