^ The tables may turn on NGONGE and he may find himself seeing the light. NGONGE, this statement in the link may have bolstered your case better than the one you chose to quote: The court heard him describe Jews as the "enemy of Islam", tell followers to "bleed" the enemies of Islam and they should not rest until they created a "Muslim state". Abu Hamza's case is not straight forward. He's wanted by the US for, alleged, terror charges among other things. I'm afraid his case is a terrible example of freedom speech as it involves, alleged, terror training camps and some such fabricated nonsense by the US state department. It's no accident that the British inay iska daba bisbaaseeyaan. If the jury convicted the Sheikh (whom I know nothing about) based alone on the tapes of sermons he gave, that conviction will be thrown out upon appeal in the US. His beliefs (of Jews and others) is not a matter of debate. That he would preach that to his congregation is protected under the law. Any rookie attorney could have that conviction thrown out. These sermons were the faithful congregating. If the Sheikh was drawing up plans to kill Jews today, then that's not a sermon to the faithful but a murder plot. Saaxib sowta arintii kaa khalkhashay. Saaxib, Islam and Muslims are under siege. I'm not one for conspiracy theories but given the abundant evidence of military, political and economical pressure that exists on Muslims, I'd say the laws will be ignored, bent or broken by those who have a vested interest in making Islam and Muslims look violent, and therefore, deserve a violent military response. Freedom of speech is but a ruse nowadays. Depending on whether one agrees with that speech has much influence on how free that speech should be. Would you like to discuss what made Muslims look so medieval in their response to this 'global crisis'? Let's go to the Reform topic over yonder. This horse is in rigor mortis at the moment.

^ It's not just a matter of tax dollars but also one of systemic and institutional racism.

Originally posted by Paragon: It is up to each of our choices. Shall we give the victim, her deserved sympathy and find the accused guilty, even possibly when he may not be guilty, or give the accused an unquestioned support, and thus avert justice? You choose. A classic Catch-22 indeed. Personally, in the absence of the confession, I would have been as reserved as Xiin or even more. Still, no matter what the outcome of this case, Sangub will remain a hero and the victim will remain the villain. Mark my words.

^ Apparently so. I'm saddened and surprised this will go on in a forum like this. Specially after Paragon has busted people in the past. This really creates a bad environment but that investigative work must be done.

Originally posted by Zero: Paragon knows Somalis too well, I guess.... Not that thought theivery is peculiar to Somalis Thought thievery? What Paragon discovered is plagiarism. Very few thoughts out there are original. The rest is recycled, rehashed and repackaged shidh. You should know. Unfortunately, ATLAS couldn't bring himself to give the original author his due credit. Even worse, he didn't even bother to digest the issue and formulate his own words to describe it. That's one count of plagiarism and one count of laziness. Grave offences indeed. And Google has become the cyber-plagiarist-buster? Oh the irony. P.S. The prosecution ammends the charges against the defendent by adding one count of pride.

Paragon: you're on a lone crusade saaxib. Exactly what triggers your interest in investigating someone's statements on this board? ATLAS: you got some explaining to do. :mad:

^ I'm confused. Exactly what is everyone here looking forward to? Sheikh Nur didn't say anything. I demand to know what is going on around here.

^ I'm having to explain to my co-workers what's happening with these cartoons. Predictably ( ), almost all of them share NGONGE's opinion. So I'm, literally, having to fight NGONGE day and night. NGONGE may be more interested in changing how Muslims behave than changing western laws to curb free speech. Though he won't come out and say it. I'll read that stuff he listed up there and see what I can come up with. Someone has to stand up to the guy.

J. Lee wrote Did he, in the recorded conversation as well as his interview with the police, confess that he had sexual relations with the girl when she was a minor or when she came back to Minneapolis last summer? We don't know. And I wouldn't call molesting someone a "relationship". --------------- Possible (future) headline: "Sangub found guilty on both charges and sentenced to two (2) years in prison and ten (10) years probation." Nomad 1: "I can't believe it. There is no friggin' justice in America for a black man. There was absolutely no evidence against the guy! This is boolshidh!" Nomad 2: "Come on saaxib, the dude confessed." Nomad 1: "But there was no evidence. None. Nada. Zip." Nomad 2: "Usually in these cases there's little evidence if any significant amount of time has passed." Nomad 1: "Exactly saaxib. It's his word against hers and who wouldn't give the guy the benefit of the doubt, huh? Nomad 2: "I wouldn't. The dude confessed, so it was his word plus her word against him. Simple really." Nomad 1: "Saaxib you're not a patriot and you don't appreciate poetry. Why am I even wasting my time with you?" Nomad 2: "You tell me. You're the one who brought this nonsense to me. And what does patriotism and poetry have to do with this? The dude confessed. Bada bim bada bum!" Nomad 1: "I know you got a clan vendatta against the abwaan. You westernized, clan X, loser." Nomad 2: "Saaxib, you're getting warmed up for nothing. I care even less about the abwaan than I do about you. Give it up or take this boolshidh elsewhere." Nomad 1: "Fine. I'll go over to those guys over there. Unlike you, they're real Somalis who feel sorry for the loss of our great abwaan. Damn that b!tch who set him up. And damn you!" :mad: Nomad 2: "Whatever dude. Be gone. You were messing up my $9 Cinnamon Spice Mocha anyway." :rolleyes: Disclaimer: The headline is fictional. Nomad 1 and Nomad 2 are fictitious characters and any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

^ Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 97% male: 97% female: 97% (1999 est.) population: 295,734,134 (July 2005 est.) Using these two (6 year apart) estimates, Ibrahim could be one of the 5,944,256 who can't read. Abstract: No one is excusing the schools, they take the cake when it comes to blame. But to not write one's name? Saaxib, it's not like one needs to go to school for that.

^ Just trying to keep the royal gene pool pure dear. No offence intended.

Originally posted by LayZieGirl: Surely, he is not stup*d just because he can't speak and write his name in english. It's not so much his intelligence I question but his effort. Certainly writing one's own name is but a small goal to reach in 6 or 7 years. We should strive for bigger things, no?

^ With qabiil, I'd rather be below zero. Wouldn't you? And yes, I'm willing to part with all the "good" aspects it provides. I really can do without them.

^ Kids in grade school herded along with new arrivals, not high school. I personally know of a 4-5th grader that can't write a single sentence. Of course, he can rhyme with the best rappers out there.

^ I'm at zero. :cool:

Originally posted by Katrina: By his own account, all Ibrahim Mumid wanted was a chance to understand. "I came to U.S. in 1999," says the Ethiopian immigrant. "In five years," he adds, lower lip trembling, "no speak English, no write my name." Though this is not a funny matter, I could hear that last statement being spoken with a very thick African accent. Incidently, if, after 7 years, one is unable to write his or her name, the problem is not with the school (though it gets no applause) but with the person himself. Seems also Ibrahim has problems with math thinking he's been here only 5 years after arriving in 1999. This herding of immigrants into ESL classes for years is just another way to keep them uneducated and a source of cheap labor (the original purpose for letting them in). Canada is notorious for this. I'm pretty sure there are native born Somali kids somewhere in Ottawa or Toronto who are enrolled in ESL classes. Blame the man, eh?

NGONGE, I appreciate that "roundabout" way of bringing me out of the darkness and into the light. I'm not entirely unconvinced. Though I'd like to make some clarifications which are important in this discussion. You wrote: If I ask you to drop the Hijab or pray only twice a day, or even, not loudly voice the controversial (to western ears) parts of the Quran, you would vehemently refuse and say (rightfully so) that you, as a human, are in no position to revise the creator’s commands! You would, ironically enough, accuse me of trying to limit your freedom of expression (faith). You (using Western standards) will of course be correct in your accusation (others will accuse me of much more, but that’s because they probably can’t read and actually believe this is what I’m calling for here). Saaxib, I'm not sure we're on the same page here. This could be a natural product of our geographical locations (and the laws that exist therein). Freedom of speech is distinct from freedom to practice religion. You constantly, and incorrectly, bundle the two into freedom of expression. Practicing one's faith is a right where I live. You can believe anything you want as long as it causes no harm to anyone else. Freedom of speech (again, where I live), while also a right, does not include religion, per se, but it has some elements of religion in it when public statements are made. A Khutba in a mosque is protected by freedom of religion. It is a message to the faithful of that religion and is not a public statement to everyone in that city, country or the world. For you to confuse that with the cartoons is beyond me. I do understand, however, you may think they're the same (both freedoms of "expression) due to the environment, culture and the legal system that exists in that part of the world. If we agree on what I wrote above, you will see that, ceteris paribus, we can have some form of consensus. Alas, all factors remaining the same is but wishful thinking in this particular case. Islam being unique, "loud", political and all the other things you called it does not descend it to an "expression", an opinion or a thought. It's both a faith and a way of life. A cartoon in newspaper, on the other hand, is an opinion, an expression and an (un)thoughtful statement made with the purpose to denigrate and insult. And while both are protected by laws (again, where I live), surely the two are not the same. Most speech is free. Denigration and insults are not. I've flogged this dying horse (of a topic) enough. Won't you give it its last rites?

Reactionary? Whatever do you mean? If someone came up to me and said we're building a highschool, I'd be more willing to donate to that than, say, a world-class university or some such nonsense. What does a country with unmentionable illiteracy rates need of a university?

^ Saaxib waad ducaysantahay walee. Those were some good points worth pondering. Speaking of weekend clan fundraisers, I was thinking the other day what all these "universities" springing up in every region meant. It's not like you hear of any new high schools being built in Somalia. And how could anyone get to university without first receiving some prior formal education? It then occured to me that these fundraisers may just be new ways for clan masters to raise funds. Who wouldn't want to support a new university in their own back yard? Think about it.

^ I wanna bring the man down, see. Yes I do sound biased, saaxib. That's ok. We're all biased. I'm biased against clans though and Sangub is just a tool for me, if you've been paying attention. The accused could have been anyone else.

^ Not unless the officer is from clan Y. But seriously, the outcome of the case will either reinforce the clannism of some (if he's found not guilty) or make life difficult for potential accusers as you mentioned. It may really be a lose-lose situation. Katrina, that was inspiring. Unfortunately, some of us grew up in households (not me ... well kinda) with a parent hating the entire southern (or northern or eastern) part of the country. Imagine if someone was given the credit they deserve (be it education, good manners and what have you) then the conversation ending with "alas, he's of tribe X and we all know they're good for nothing pricks." It's terrible. As a small child, you wonder what's so bad about clan X. Even worse, you have much difficulty telling who's of clan X and who's not. P.S. For the longest time I thought northerner Somalis were more clannist (infinitely more) than the southerners. I don't think that anymore. Not since 1990. P.P.S. Originally posted by Jimca Lee: just out of morbid curiosity what if it turns out that she lied or that this whole incident was but a plot to assassinate the character of a :rolleyes: nationally recognized hero? Then the man confesses (allegedly) for something he didn't do? Yeah, I can see that happening to any of us. War atheer even if I was guilty of something and I'm confronted by a cop, I'd still deny it until they show me a video tape (like that Chappelle skit).

^ That puts you on the fence saaxib. Not a very comfortable place for an esteemed nomad such as yourself. And as you may have gathered, my support, based solely on the alleged confession, is fully behind the victim (the accuser). Ducaqabe: I'm glad you enjoyed the skit saaxib. What do you suppose, ninyahow, old man Chappelle was trying to say in this skit? Was he: 1) saying that blacks will support blacks even if there's irrefutable evidence to the contrary? (replace black with clan, if you will) 2) whites have a justice system unfair to blacks and that blacks should stick together? 3) knowing or admiring the celebrity (for whatever reason) might influence our perception of what is real and damning? Tell me saaxib. Could you see some similarities between that R. Kelly skit and the Sangub case? The fact that both accused are black and famous is merely a matter of coincidence here, obviously.

^ The most difficult clannists to get rid of are close family members. Someone who is a parent, an older sibling or a uncle or aunt. Basically someone you're constantly in close contact with and always displays attitudes and opinions that are dispicable. How do you deal with such persons? It's quite easy to look down on the clannist at the Starbucks but could we really face those whom fate has decided we share genes with?

^ Saaxib be honest. Seattle played very well and didn't deserve that final score. But it is all over and neither you nor I will remember this a year from now.

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