I love this thread. Not for all the back and forth or the "scientific" balderdash it contains but for its elegant demonstration that without our egos, we could never take a severe and unambiguous licking yet keep coming back for more. LOL.

Originally posted by AYOUB: ^ Who is your legitimate, recognized religious authority ? There is no such authority in Somalia today and it's certainly not the Shabaab or any of the other so-called Islamic movements.

Xiin, anyone who argues in favor of suicide bombing (as I did years earlier) is either ignorant, misguided or willfully trying to deceive. Let another man or woman come to this topic and argue otherwise.

Originally posted by Laba-X: Can the current conflict in Somalia be considered or classified as some sort of Jihad, or is it simply a political power struggle of some sorts? Yes and yes. It is a misguided Jihad and vicious power struggle. The statement below by Dr. Jamal Badawi (and others) in response to Bin Laden's calls for Jihad (similar to those made by the Shabaab) summarizes my position. "Islam respects the sacredness of life, and rejects any express statement or tacit insinuation that Muslims should harm innocent people. Despite our disagreement with certain American policies, we must never abuse the concept of Jihad to target innocent civilians. "Jihad, which literally means 'struggle,' has an internal, societal and combative dimension. The internal dimension of Jihad encompasses the struggle against the evil inclinations of the self, and the spiritual project to adorn the self with virtues such as justice, mercy, generosity and gentleness. The societal dimension includes struggling against social injustice and creating a communal identity based on charity, respect and equality. Finally, the combative aspect of jihad is only to be used as self-defense against aggression or to fight oppression, and, even then, to be observed with strict limits of conduct that preserves the life of innocents and the sanctity of the environment. Moreover, this latter type of Jihad can only be declared by a legitimate, recognized religious authority. "Using the concept of Jihad to justify harming the innocent is contrary to the letter and spirit of Islam. We condemn any violence that springs from this misguided interpretation."

Textbook case of propaganda. Notice how in the beginning it's Mohamed Olad Hassan listed as a reporter but later at the end of the article his name is dropped. Also notice how this happened A MONTH AGO with no reference to anything happening after. With this single article "tying" a very likely fabricated incident in Mogadishu to another one in Detroit to pirates and al-Qaeda, miss Katharine Houreld (if she even exists) scores a jackpot. LOL. Lying b!tch. Somali arrested at airport with chemicals, syringe AP By MOHAMED OLAD HASSAN, KATHARINE HOURELD and JASON STRAZIUSO , Associated Press Writers Mohamed Olad Hassan, Katharine Houreld And Jason Straziuso, Associated Press Writers – Mohamed Olad Hassan, Katharine Houreld And Jason Straziuso, Associated Press Writers – Wed Dec 30, 9:26 am ET MOGADISHU, Somalia – A man tried to board a commercial airliner in Mogadishu last month carrying powdered chemicals, liquid and a syringe that could have caused an explosion in a case bearing chilling similarities to the terrorist plot to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday. The Somali man — whose name has not yet been released — was arrested by African Union peacekeeping troops before the Nov. 13 Daallo Airlines flight took off. It had been scheduled to travel from Mogadishu to the northern Somali city of Hargeisa, then to Djibouti and Dubai. A Somali police spokesman, Abdulahi Hassan Barise, said the suspect is in Somali custody. "We don't know whether he's linked with al-Qaida or other foreign organizations, but his actions were the acts of a terrorist. We caught him red-handed," said Barise. ( Always make the nonexistent link ) A Nairobi-based diplomat ( who? ) said the incident in Somalia is similar to the attempted attack on the Detroit-bound airliner on Christmas Day in that the Somali man had a syringe, a bag of powdered chemicals and liquid — tools similar to those used in the Detroit attack. The diplomat spoke on condition he not be identified because he isn't authorized to release the information. ( How convenient? ) Barigye Bahoku, the spokesman for the African Union military force in Mogadishu, said the chemicals from the Somali suspect could have caused an explosion that would have caused air decompression inside the plane. However, Bahoku said he doesn't believe an explosion would have brought the plane down. ( The spokesman for the AU is not just a bomb expert but also an aircraft expert ) A second international official familiar with the incident, also speaking on condition of anonymity because he isn't authorized to discuss the case, ( ) confirmed that the substances carried by the Somali passenger could have been used as an explosive device . ( Conjecture? Anonymous corroborating the anonymous ) In the Detroit case, alleged attacker Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab hid explosive PETN in a condom or condom-like bag just below his torso when he traveled from Amsterdam to Detroit. Like the captured Somali, Abdulmutallab also had a syringe filled with liquid. The substances seized from the Somali passenger are being tested. ( Then remind people of the nonexistent link ) The November incident garnered little attention before the Dec. 25 attack aboard a flight on final approach to Detroit. U.S. officials have now learned of the Somali case and are hastening to investigate any possible links between it and the Detroit attack, though no officials would speak on the record about the probe. U.S. investigators said Abdulmutallab told them he received training and instructions from al-Qaida operatives in Yemen — which lies across the Gulf of Aden from Somalia. Similarly, large swaths of Somalia are controlled by an insurgent group, al-Shabab, which has ties to al-Qaida. Western officials say many of the hundreds of foreign jihadi fighters in Somalia come in small boats across the Gulf of Aden from Yemen. The officials also say that examination of equipment used in some Somali suicide attacks leads them to believe it was originally assembled in Yemen. Law enforcement officials believe the suspect in the Detroit incident tried to ignite a two-part concoction of the high explosive PETN and possibly a glycol-based liquid explosive, setting off popping, smoke and some fire but no deadly detonation. Abdulmutallab, a Nigerian national, is charged with trying to destroy an aircraft. A Somali security official involved in the capture of the suspect in Mogadishu said he had a 1-kilogram (2.2-pound) package of chemical powder and a container of liquid chemicals. The security official said the suspect was the last passenger to try to board. Once security officials detected the powder chemicals and syringe, the suspect tried to bribe the security team that detained him, the Somali security official said. The security official said the suspect had a white shampoo bottle with a black acid-like substance in it. He also had a clear plastic bag with a light green chalky substance and a syringe containing a green liquid. The security official spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to release the information. The powdered material had the strong scent of ammonia, Bahoku said, and samples have been sent to London for testing. The Somali security officials said the Daallo Airlines flight was scheduled to go from Mogadishu to Hargeisa, to Djibouti and then to Dubai. A spokeswoman for Daallo Airlines said that company officials weren't aware of the incident and would have to seek more information before commenting. Daallo Airlines is based in Dubai and has offices in Djibouti and France. ___ Associated Press writer Katharine Houreld reported from Baghdad ( I thought the incident happened in Mogadishu? ). Jason Straziuso reported from Nairobi, Kenya. Wretched source

Peacenow should be left alone. We need to be tolerant of all views if we wish to rebuild our country into a modern, progressive state. Anybody know where this guy lives? His physical street address? I'd like to pay him a visit and beat the shit out of him. It's people like him who push others into using violence. lol.

Originally posted by Gabbal: Never have I felt more hopeless for that beleaguered nation of ours. With these last remarks, I bid you all a new year. Heh. I don't blame you saaxib. Somalia is indeed in a holding pattern for the foreseeable future. This "politics" forum (which has little to do with Somali politics) is a meeting place for Somaliland clowns and Puntland buffoons (both groups largely made up of barely disguised clan imbeciles ) Pray for the motherland away from this cesspool.

Belated mawliid nabi Ciise yaa Sherban. Originally posted by The Zack: War illeen doofaar waligii ma daahiro, adeer when did convert to atheism horta? When you came to the west? :confused:

^^^^ Speaking of negative reporting, how about this Nigerian guy plastered all over television around the clock? What do you think is the purpose of the wall to wall coverage? The holidays are the time when most people in the West are at home and televisions are turned on. Is there a better time to remind people of al-Qaeda using a Muslim, a bomb and an airplane? I read about 10 articles from different "news" sources on the incident today and not two had the same details. You can literally see the rubbish being sprayed around. I bet you come 2010 when a supplemental "defense" appropriation bill comes to Congress, thanks to this "foiled terrorist attack" ( ) yet another 100 billion dollars will be approved, without a hitch, for the never-ending "war on terror": the greatest cash-cow of all time. LOL. Ka cabso.

BiLaaL, the TFG is manufactured by the West. Why would it receive any negative reporting? Remember, negative reporting on the Shabaab and other "Islamic" movements is made for domestic consumption in the West. In order to justify the unimaginable amounts of money spent on armaments and war making (one trillion dollars per year in the US alone), the public must be made to first hate then fear an enemy so bad to give up their treasure to defense contractors. It's as simple as creating a villain (Communism served a similar purpose in the past) to scare the public in order to bilk them for their pennies. Nur's grand conspiracy against Islam doesn't quite stand up to scrutiny when you look at it in dollars and cents. Negative (or positive) reporting is propaganda and is expected in times of peace or war. The Shabaab need to learn the game and play it as well as the others. There is no point complaining the playing field is not level (militarily or otherwise) when we all know it isn't. Learn, adjust and act instead of whine, complain and react.

^^^^ No harm done awoowe. We all need to strive for improvement. Originally posted by Nur: If you are still maintaining that there are no US and Ethiopian interference in driving events in Somalia for their own political agenda, then you have to convince me. Surely you know I never made such a claim. This site is littered with my views on this: the US is by far the single most important player in Somali (and world) affairs then come neighboring countries and their proxy agents inside. Remember though, it was the Shabaab's conduct of the resistance that is being discussed, not who else is involved in the conflict, how they are financed, who did the most recent bombing or what brought us to this situation. All worthy subjects but not the focus of this discussion. The focus was the unconventional and patently un-Islamic guerrilla tactics (suicide bombings) used by a self-professed Islamic movement. Let's remove all other elements and distractions lest we drown in a never ending discussion. I'm also still waiting on Abu-Salman who was to bring evidence that suicide bombing is allowed in Islam under certain circumstances.

Originally posted by Nur: Cara You have no dog in this conflict, Atheists have no place in Somalia , both the TFG and the opposition have pledged to follow Islam as the law of the land, if you disagree, please elaborate on why Atheists should be considered. Personalize this! This is an example of what I've said. That you are dishonest in putting words in one's mouth. Here is what I have written, read carefully again and see how different your conclusion is. I'm not the only who reached this conclusion so it's the message you sent that was either poorly worded or purposely vague. Dishonest? I think this qualifies as a personalization. As for the reliability of news. Again, you are grossly misleading by shifting the focus on the news reported from Somalia to news about the Imperial powers by their own critics in the west. The allegations about the Shabab bombing does not come from the west first, it begins with the TFG, and then its echoed by Reuter and so on. Can one trust what the TFG reports about the AS? that was the question you have dodged. The more you write the deeper in trouble you get yourself. I thought it was the empire and its CIA, NATO, NGOs and mercenaries that are running the show. Now it's the TFG (the tail) wagging the dog? But even if what you say is true, why would the TFG be the first to tell lies about their fellow Somali and Muslim brethren to the media. Wasn't it your claim that the empire and its cronies who hated Islam and Muslims? Unless what you told Cara above ("both the TFG and the opposition have pledged to follow Islam as the law of the land") is hogwash. Finally, Your choice of words reflect your character and personality , this discussion was not about taunting, it was intended to be an objective dialogue, but it seems that you have personalized the discussion. lol. Characters and personalities have no room in this discussion yet you keep referring to them. I'll let the gallery decide who personalized the discussion. Peace Edit: Cara, you atheist witch, take it from here. Fidel has left the building.

Originally posted by Nur: No, they are not framed, their actions are misreported, misrepresented, and at times, a blatant lie is spread of their actions, yes by the media that you feed on everyday. Allah SWT says in Quraan: eNuri Translation "O you who believe, if a Faasiq brings you a news, verify it, lest you accuse a folk what they have not committed due to ignorance, and later regret after finding out the truth" We feed on the same media saaxib. You do not have access to any unfiltered news that I don't. Recognize any of the following names? Prof. James Petras Manuel Valenzuela Chris Carlson Mike Whitney Uri Avnery V. I. Lenin Gwynne Dyer Robert Fisk Jeremy Scahill Walter Rogers These are names of Western journalists whose articles you have copied and pasted in one topic. Now, what makes this group different than the "Faasiq" media I feed on every day? The difference is, this group echoes your preexisting beliefs. What they write sounds good to you (nevermind if its true or not) because you believe these writers are on your side and against the empire. So your litmus test, one can infer, in telling genuine media from Faasiq media is whether you already agree with them or not. Not a very good test, you must admit. You've got that one right! I am sure that you agree that they don't have personal bank accounts full of NATO and US donated money like the hired guns of the TFG, Ugandan and Burundi mercenaries. Remember, I'm not defending the wicked TFG, it is you who's defending the Shabaab. Let's keep our eye on the ball. If this is the way you prove guilt, you will never make a good judge, or a jury, trusting information provided by an opponent is not accepted as guilt by a competent court, specially if the information is provided by professional liars of the TFG and their foreign publishers who are on record claiming that there were no Ethiopians in Belet Weyn when the public was watching them move around town in broad daylight full of truckloads of Ethiopian mercenaries. :confused: If the media didn't report there were Ethiopians on the ground, how come you and I found out about it? It's not like you were there on the front lines. There were ample reports of Ethiopian sightings reported in Somali and Western media. Some media took the official line of the TFG and Ethiopian government (happens all the time all over the world) while others decided to dig deeper and find the truth. Other than the obvious ad hominem argument, what is the point of bringing up this poor example? You must be kidding saaxib, how can you be sure of these unreliable reports that men wearing a woman's clothing committed the last bombing? the TFG is in war with AS, and as you know, men who have no fear of Allah, like the TFG have no incentive to tell the truth if its not convenient to their interests. You need to doubt about their motives, not the AS. I'm not sure, and incidentally, neither are you. Yet you feign certainty in your knowledge when there isn't any. I do not know that the Shabaab are god fearing men any more than I know the TFG are god loathing men. And again, neither do you. I judge either group by their actions as their motives are irrelevant. And surely you don't believe the Shabaab have no interest in political power. If you do, it would be hard to argue much else with you. Killing of civilians by anyone is a bad thing, but it does happen in a state of conflict, accepting a fact of life, does not imply its approval So generally, you preach, killing civilians is a "bad thing" but when civilians are killed by the Shabaab we ought to accept that as a "fact of life" while if they are killed by TFG bombings, they are collateral damage and it should be denounced. Do you even read what you write? your comprehension leaves a lot to be desired, my advice to you, when in doubt ask for clarification, do not put words in someone's mouth, what you have written is misleading, and if it isn't poor comprehension, its plain dishonesty. lol. You're still beating around the bush sheikh Nurow. Without resorting to this kind of childish rhetoric, come out like a man and say I support the Shabaab in all that they do and let the world be damned. You're not very good at walking this tight rope.

Originally posted by Nur: Castro bro Your write: You might even go as far as arguing the Shabaab don't even exist and are a convenient villain created by these powerful interests (much like some argue the Qaeda is). You see where I'm going with this, right? [big Grin] That is stretching it little too far saaxib, but as for Al Qaeda, the deception is unparalleled, like they say, don't believe ALL you hear, and HALF of what you see, since the art of multimedia doctoring spun from Hollywood technologies to manufacture consent has been perfected. check it out here http://www.alqaedadoesntexist.com/ So the Shabaab exist but they're being given a bad name and framed for these bombings. They are, you tell us, Allah fearing patriotic men whose sole aim is to rid their homeland of occupiers and their puppets. The bombs, you claim (or hope), are not suicide bombers but remotely controlled and implanted in the buildings by mysterious powers hell bent on keeping Somalia in perpetual anarchy. Once they go off, media owned by powerful interests fills the airwaves with false news articles of men wearing women clothes detonating themselves. Then someone impersonating the gallant Shabaab calls or faxes in a claim of responsibility for the recent bombing. Does this not summarize your position? You need to come up for air once in a while saaxib. Being constantly immersed in these conspiracy documentaries and articles is impairing your judgment, in my view. I know because I've been down that road before. What makes you think the manufacturers of consent didn't make the site you listed? You said yesterday the killing of civilians by the Shabaab was a bad thing yet it seems you still support them. Talk about softly justifying the deaths of civilians as collateral damage. Ma calayna.

^^^^ Yes, dear. Think of the three entities as a donkey and his two ears.

Originally posted by Nur: Suicide bombing which kills many innocent civilians is indeed a bad thing, so is homicide bombing by the TFG, AMISOM and the US, which is softly justified as collateral damage. That's all I needed to hear from you saaxib. The wretched TFG, its backers and enablers are not even worthy of discussion. The obscenity they have descended upon the population is there for all to see. They don't even pretend to be human when they empty entire neighborhoods, even cities, of its residents while killing and maiming thousands. It is those who feign religious righteousness (the Shabaab and others) then shamelessly commit heinous atrocities that we are discussing. Edit: Of course, if your argument is the Shabaab are being framed and given a bad name (a legitimate argument if you can show some evidence) by media owned by powerful interests, I might play along to see where you end up. You will have a hard time proving it, however, when the Shabaab themselves claim credit for some of their martyrdom operations. Unless, of course, you think those claims of responsibility are also faked by the powers that be. You might even go as far as arguing the Shabaab don't even exist and are a convenient villain created by these powerful interests (much like some argue the Qaeda is). You see where I'm going with this, right?

This discussion could be resurrected if you or Abusalman provide a legal Islamic argument (with the necessary proofs) that these "blessed operations of istish-haad" that mow down civilians are allowed under certain circumstances, as you claim. Otherwise, lets exchange pleasantries and be on our merry ways.

^^^^^ You must be off today. Originally posted by Abu-Salman: On another note, yes, some scholars may permit suicide bombing in particular circumstances etc (eg by refering to instances of Sahabas jumping into enemy ranks etc); issues such as these are not as straightforward as it may sounds to the average mind or in the medias, thus the required background knowledge in Fiqh and other branches of Islamic sciences. Do you have any references to these scholarly works permitting suicide bombing "in particular circumstances"?

Originally posted by Nur: Don't get me wrong saaxib, I don't tolerate young men shredding themselves into pieces, worse yet, I don't accept the deception and oppression that drives them to such hopelessness committed by institutionalized human rights violators, Do I blame the CIA? Isn't the CIA an innocent, benevolent aid and human relief organization assisting Somalis by giving them food and assisting them how to govern themselves? How can I blame such an organization saaxib? ... The west has diluted all of their religious and ethical values slowly, transformed Sodomy to an acceptable institution, and that rotten moral net is being widened to poorer nations, through so called international non gov. organizations ( NGO)to dilute Islam too, beginning with the handy dividing western terminologies, " A Moderate Muslim", referred to those who are showered with praise for their abandonment of fundamental tenets of Islam, in order to encourage them to do away with remaining Islamic tenets, hence the shedding of the crocodile tears about the menace of the concocted "Extremism" Media jargon. Nur Brother Nur, now you are talking complete nonsense. The West (remind me again where you live?), through its CIA and NGOs and its dilution of religion and morality is turning Somalis into faggots so lets blow ourselves up? Never mind that killing oneself is an express ticket to Jahanam and worse still, unlawfully killing even one innocent person is equivalent to killing all of humanity. But we're not talking about that now, are we sheikh Nurow? We have many enemies to fight and the end justifies the means. :rolleyes: There's no discussion to be had here.

^^^^ I didn't even see that statement. It sums up Nur's position in a nutshell. Originally posted by Nur: The blatant invasion of Ethiopia and its destruction of what was left of the warlords 16 years of mayhem and chaos, who have also assisted the Ethiopian invasion and the covert military cover of the CIA has created the current intransigence of the resistance movements in Somalia. Simply, they don't trust someone who failed to destroy them. Sheikh Nurow, yours is not nostalgia saaxib. You have now left the realm of reason. And since we can't turn back the clock, you suggest we tolerate suicide bombings? And you blame the CIA for the mayhem caused by the Shabaab? Ayaan darro indeed.

Quintessential Togane.

^^^ Is that Jody Watley? Wow. I bet you remember this, old timer And the one and only

^^^^ Save your breath for another pulpit atheer. This ignorant quack will never make it to Congress. First she will have to run a spell/grammar checker on that wretched site of hers then change that nauseating green background. This woman makes Sarah Palin look like a nuclear physicist. Lynne Torgerson: The Most Vile Political Wanna-be in America "yo no se", you say? No kidding.

Glad you're amused saaxib. It was meant to be funny though not entirely. You and I share the same views on many (if not most) issues except for your recent efforts of finding fault in everyone but the Shabaab. You need to take another look at what has become of the Cinderella (Courts) of 2006. You seem to be stuck in the past and not seeing the forest for the trees.

Sheikh Nuurow, just because you are paranoid does not mean they're not out to get you. I'm waiting for the day you say the Shabaab have been infiltrated by a Zionist group commanding young men to blow themselves up so they could give Muslims a bad name.