Dashiib,if we all talk who will listen? i have been listening and not blabbing,...so i have been reading... and contribute if i have something new to add!!! i know it’s may be difficult for some to understand that one doesn’t have to have opinion on everything, simply cos i am not privy to all! Castro it not matter of reading or ignoring someone and its about liking a view... its matter of , it’s not about taking away rights or controlling thought!!! it's about Congestion… we need a congestion charge!!!

My humble suggestion of making SOL better for us! Moderators and fellow clients of SOL, I would like to suggest limitation imposed on the number of topics the same individual posts a day, because of multiple postings by the few individuals. I understand the need to uphold the enhance SOL as a place where one can freely start a discussion but to let few individual who seem to be have decided to spend their entire day on posting numerous topics would in the long run affect us all negatively The effect of multiple posting are as follows • makes other voices less visible(other topics are send to the next page by the multiple posters) • The site becomes a tool to advance a political agenda rather than a discussion site. I am not happy to have to suggest restrictions however, freedom comes with responsibilities, and I feel not all of us here are exercising those responsibilities. Looking forward to hear from others

Because they're busy Looting the coca cola plant (:

The more i read this forum and the recent events in Mogadishu, where Somalis have call upon foreigners for massacre their brethren...i am convinced Somalia is DEAD, we are doomed to refugeedom and failure.. As a society we have failed, as individuals we have failure, we are loser race. May Allah rescue as from ourselves.. Sorry for the pessimism, but have been robbed of my optimism by the lack of leadership and intellectualism in my society… just look at you people here…We need to ask ourselves what we want as people and how deep will we dig into the abyss

Mr Duke ! when two somali groups fight, we ought feel sad about such situation, and when that fight comes to end, we ought to think of ways to reconcile rather than gloating... get my drift...rather than using words like 'defeated clan courts' etc... Which only further inflames the situation we ought as educated people go beyond this childish issues., so DUKE my advise for you is please propel yourself to 21st century !!

Tukaale are you kidding me? or you as small minded as you come across? somali nationals come in different color and creed... and who cares about their name? i dont and you shouldnt.. cos its none of ur business,,, this shows a glimse of the intolerance that is endemic in our society,,, i dont care whether someone is John steve, or liban as far as they are Somali national and prepared to pay taxes and build a peaceful nation... how many here have western passports names like abdi!!! grow up people..

am refering to the title!! dear

dont use the word genocide lightly... think before u utter such words because u ran the risk of degrading genocide.. Somalis kill more somalis, by the way Bokero

Cara Thanks for the sarcasism! I have also noticed the word “young” and “naïve” used to disarm the me!!! A person who counters arguments with insults just exposes their character.. someone said that but I cant remember cos I am too young!! Kudos for well thought contribution

Ngongo... Attacking ideas are not personal attacks... personal attacks r questioning ones somaliness as way of disarming the individual... By the way i dont have to qualify my assertion, the truth of matter is that most somalis either directly or indirectly have played a role in our current quagmire.. and am not digging any hole dear the somalis have done effectivily by themselves they cannot go deeper... i am not too proud to apologies but please do let me know, why? By the way do u ask the killers and ethnic fascists to do the same? Just curios Xoogade Please read east African history and u will know about Bokero... am at work at the moment don’t have the time to explain... Nomadic princess Thanks for the kind words sister… Bokero

I am not supprised by your attacks etc… gambling addicts need a lot help before they admit to have a problem.. One: I am ethnic Somali in the sense that I am a Somali who didn’t grow-up with Somalis and no I didn’t grow up in the west… so lets end the personalising things and focus on the real issues at hand… I don’t need your affirmation nor your permission to contribute to Somali issues, after all your backward thinking has made refugee out of all of us, surely you should welcome difference voices. Two: most of your contribution in this site in mere rhetoric, devoid of any thing progressive but merely reinforcing failed and misery policy… Examples::: • Continued blind support of kinship ties regardless of what the warlords or islamist do.. • Ethnic secessionism (Somaliland case) and the counter ethnic arguments again session with the aim of dominating the north-east… • Murder of minorities ( e.g the bombing of Hargesa, and genocide agains Bantus and barava etc) by warlords supported by many here… • The invitation of foreign power to further ethinic gains… • The celebration of the killing of fellow Somalis!!! • The bankruptcy of ideas from the diaspora etc etc Three: You cannot force people to religiosity or force them to the mosque if they do not wish practice… the state should protect everyone including non-Muslims, or non-practising Muslims!!! That is called tolerance my dear, it is something we lack in abundance.. and new to many here Four:: why r we the only people in Africa that have had the most prolonged failed state with no end to it? Before we blame the Ethiopian and the rest of the world I urge that we look at our own society, why do we produce abundant haters, intolerantance, difficult, medieval thinkers, parasites, killers, and financers of killers, professional refugees, etc? Before we attack the messenger people take a moment for self-reflection!

Well I am not supprised by your attacks etc… gambling addicts need a lot help before they admit to have a problem.. One: I am ethnic Somali in the sense that I am a Somali who didn’t grow-up with Somalis and no I didn’t grow up in the west… so lets end the personalising things and focus on the real issues at hand… I don’t need your affirmation nor your permission to contribute to Somali issues, after all your backward thinking has made refugee out of all of us, surely you should welcome difference voices. Two: most of your contribution in this site in mere rhetoric, devoid of any thing progressive but merely reinforcing failed and misery policy… Examples::: • Continued blind support of kinship ties regardless of what the warlords or islamist do.. • Ethnic secessionism (Somaliland case) and the counter ethnic arguments again session with the aim of dominating the north-east… • Murder of minorities ( e.g the bombing of Hargesa, and genocide agains Bantus and barava etc) by warlords supported by many here… • The invitation of foreign power to further ethinic gains… • The celebration of the killing of fellow Somalis!!! • The bankruptcy of ideas from the diaspora etc etc Three: You cannot force people to religiosity or force them to the mosque if they do not wish practice… the state should protect everyone including non-Muslims, or non-practising Muslims!!! That is called tolerance my dear, it is something we lack in abundance.. and new to many here Four:: why r we the only people in Africa that have had the most prolonged failed state with no end to it? Before we blame the Ethiopian and the rest of the world I urge that we look at our own society, why do we produce abundant haters, intolerantance, difficult, medieval thinkers, parasites, killers, and financers of killers, professional refugees, etc? Before we attack the messenger people take a moment for self-reflection!

Taliban I am sorry but it has to be said; uneducated, reactionary, medieval, anti-science, shieks do not have answers to long-term Somali problem... I am strong believer of the separation of religion and state.. Imposing uniform religious laws is not answer... I am not into going back to 7th century banning TV, football games etc The answer may lay in moderation, respect of difference and the provision of platforms to air differences without killing each other... Ending the current quagmire is only the start of a bigger the challenge facing our people.. how to overcome poverty, and underdevelopment... how to provide schools and medical care, how to create a conducive environment for business to flourish, how to deal with environmental challenges and desertification, how to protect our coral reefs, how to trade with our neighbors, etc etc etc… while the rest of Africa have started to deal with such issues we are messianically wasting our energy on things that are so 12th century

Abu My point is excatly you not seeing the point!!! that is the problem!

Somali’s genetically backward… As ethnic Somali who grew up outside Somali, I just can’t bring myself to understand why Somali’s seem to be so prone to focus to parochial issues. Initially I thought this probably stems from lack of education and exposure but then I read this forum and others, I can’t help but conclude that it probably can be genetically sourced! If you visit refugee camps in Kenya, Yemen, Uganda etc you will see how much suffering and humiliation we have inflicted ourselves. For those in Diaspora rather than working towards reforming and building a decent Somali society that is forward looking, you’ve all become mini-fascists and use the education and articulation you have gained abroad to further the same old tired disastrous divisions and small mindedness. Have we not inflected enough pain by what we have done to ourselves,??,, most of you do not have to live in stinky, flighty, flee ridden tents that most of Somali women and children call home in Daadab or Kakuma refugee camps… I urge you all to go and see what we have done to ourselves go to Kenyan refugee camps.. then u may start to appreciate the consequences of tribalism and small mindedness… What do you offer with all the education western tax payers have affored you?? The same western people one of us tried to thank them by attempting to blow them up in London (thankfully the ***** failed)!!! What do you offer to your people or to Africa… apart from pedantic arguments and the same old tired clannish thinking? I say if we are not careful our generation will join the last failed generation that has turned us all into refugees.. Reading this site I cannot help but say the future for Somalia and Somalis is bleak!!! i hope and pray i am wrong!!

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL Public Statement AI Index: AFR 52/005/2004 (Public) News Service No: 323 17 December 2004 Somaliland: 16-year-old girl jailed in grossly unfair espionage trial should be released or re-tried Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh, sentenced to five years’ imprisonment on 15 December 2004, with the main charge being "procuring information regarding the security of the state", should be released immediately - or a re-trial, under conditions meeting international standards of fair trial, should take place as soon as possible. Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh, aged 16, was arrested on 15 August at the Vice-President’s house and has been on trial since 4 October with several adjournments. She was alleged to be obtaining secret information about the Vice-President’s house on her visit to Hargeisa from Puntland, which is almost at war with Somaliland over disputed border regions. She denied the charge before the regional court in Hargeisa, the capital of Somaliland. She was sentenced to four years’ imprisonment on the main charge and an additional one year’s imprisonment for making a false statement to police about her identity, making a total of five years’ imprisonment. An appeal is being submitted. Her co-defendant, Omar Jama Warsame, a taxi-driver who was arrested and charged with her, was acquitted. Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh was left to represent herself at both the start and the end of her trial. Local human rights defenders arranged for four lawyers to defend her but after they asked the judge to withdraw from the case as a result of alleged bias, the judge jailed all four defence lawyers for four years for "insulting the judge". They were freed on appeal on 11 December, when their sentences were reduced to one year’s imprisonment or a fine, which they paid. During her trial, she complained that she had been raped and tortured by police. She denied prosecution allegations that she was involved in a conspiracy with a clandestine Islamist "terrorist" group from the neighbouring Puntland Regional State of Somalia. Unfair trial Amnesty International considers that her trial was grossly unfair and produced no evidence to substantiate the serious charge of espionage affecting the security of the state. The judge summarily dismissed her allegations that she had been raped by six police officers from the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) officers and tortured. She was tried as an adult, even though her identity card specifies her age as 16 years, thus a child under the internationally-recognized limit of 18 years. The court claims she is 17. The judge reportedly said that the maximum sentence of ten years’ imprisonment was reduced on account of her age. After the first weeks of being held incommunicado in police custody, she has been detained in Hargeisa Central Prison (a prison for adults), where she is allowed visits. Two reports and testimony by government doctors, said to have assessed Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh’s rape allegations, were provided to the court but not made available to defence counsel. She was reportedly pressured by various government officials and others visiting her in prison to withdraw her rape and torture allegations, on promise of release, which she refused to do. In court, she identified one of the alleged police rapists, a senior Criminal Investigation Department officer, who was giving evidence for the prosecution and claimed she had "confessed" to the alleged conspiracy. No reply from the government Amnesty International has received no reply to its letter to the Minister of Justice asking for urgent action on concerns about Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh’s rights as a child, the judge’s failure to institute formal investigations into the rape and torture allegations, and several fair trial issues, including the imprisonment of her defence lawyers. In order to uphold the principles of child rights protection, and also to ensure that she has all necessary medical treatment, Amnesty International on 30 November, publicly requested that Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh be provisionally released, rather than detained in an adult prison for a prolonged and indefinite period. Amnesty International requested that a fully independent and impartial inquiry be established during the trial into the rape allegations, in particular, including one or more medical professionals experienced in rape investigations, bringing in international expertise as needed. It requested that, in accordance with international standards, the findings of the inquiry be provided to the court, including defence counsel; and, if the allegations were substantiated, those alleged to be responsible for this serious crime be tried in accordance with procedures which meet international standards of fair trial, and Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh adequately compensated. Amnesty International also expressed concerns about the failure of the court to respect international standards of fair trial, particularly the non-admissibility of statements obtained as a result of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment; the right to legal defence representation; the right of lawyers to perform all of their professional functions without intimidation, hindrance, harassment or improper interference; and the right to trial by a competent and impartial court. For more information, or photo of Zamzam Ahmed Dualeh, please call Amnesty International's press office in London, UK, on +44 20 7413 5566. Amnesty International, 1 Easton St., London WC1X 0DW. web: http://www.amnesty.org For latest human rights news view http://news.amnesty.org

With Poems such as this, no wonder we are where we are.. Hateful and discriminatory poems/writing and their proponents are the real cancer to the Somali nation/people.. No wonder we don’t trust each other.. Shame on Togane and his ilk, the Somali people are dying and are refugees precisely because of such hateful ideology.. Just like in the New Rwanda such divisive and potentially dangerous ethnic propaganda should not be allowed in the New Somalia (hopefully to be constructed soon). It seems to me Togane and supporters are not satisfied with 1.5 Million dead Somalis, deaths which have their origins in hateful propaganda exhibited in Toganes so called poetry.. As for those who support Togane’s propaganda well, pathetic, primitive, unpatriotic, divisive, unprogressive, parochial, tunnel visionary, are some of the words come to my mind.. As for Smith western we all know your motive for posting such a poem by calling clannish you hoped to disguise your true intention, you have a long record of clannish tendencies...By the way what is electric about the poem? The only electricity I see is the unnecessary anger, disrespect, a sense of alienation, a sense of victimization it causes in the minds of the clan members the poem targets and degrades. Think about it.. With our current predicament do we need such poems?? I say No now and NO forever… Peace

The Thieves and Murderers are at it again!! Warlord Urged to Stop Depleting Somalia’s Marine Resource Somali Peace Rally (Galkaio City) PRESS RELEASE March 3, 2004 Posted to the web March 3, 2004 The citizens of Somalia have continued to witness many brigand type activities committed by no one but someone claiming the title of a leader, an unfortunate word in today's Somalia. Reports of toxic waste dumped in Somali territory are widespread. However, the plaguing of Somalia’s marine resources by few individuals with pecuniary motives has become a daily occurrence. Col. Abdullahi Yusuf of Puntland and his commission taking practices are a case in point. To perpetuate his dubious deals in Somalia's high seas, the Col. Abdullahi has arranged secret contracts in Thailand to exploit Somali marine resource. In the last two years, millions of dollars have been swindled by Abdullahi and his company through similar secret deals. Most of this money has been used for building up militia in order to suppress the people through the barrel of the gun. It is not only theft that SPR is concerned about. We are concerned about the negative effects these deals have for biodiversity. The vessels that Abdullahi gave fishing permits are involved in sweeping high-value tuna, shark and ray fins, lobster, deepwater shrimp and demersal Whitefish, according to source knowledgeable to marine science. People who know Col. Yousuf very well confirmed to SPR that he is a man who is not known for due diligence. "If he is getting money for building up his warlordship, biodiversity is not an issue for him. If he will stay in power, constitution or democracy has no meaning for him", was argued by his critiques. "The implications of Abdullahi’s suspicious deals for Puntland/Somalia are of two fold ­ the resources of the land are stolen by one man and a collaborating gang. Millions are siphoned off in foreign accounts, some of which is used for warlordism, buying armies and recruiting thousands of militias to suppress his people ­ the biodiversity of the beautiful seas of Somalia is jeopardized by the reckless and uncontrolled fishing vessels. It is about to time ask, how is Col. Yousuf different from Mr. Munye who is the only warlord residing outside the country ­ Yemen. It is no surprise that Col. Abbdulahi recently milked $1million from Munye for the ill-fated reconciliation exercise in Kenya. Obviously, Abdullahi decided to exploit Somali marine resource for personal greed and power hungry dreams.

Commercial farming.. in the short term i may cultivate maruana plant the returns are high.. the plant does not need care cos its weed. futhermore it's harmless and may bring peace to the country high people dont fight they chill...

Yasmine Thanks for insightful and interesting set of questions. I think your questions touch on fundamental questions that will face Somalia and Somalis after they stop butchering themselves. I will try to address your questions in general rather than chronologically. I have always believed the Somali mind in large extent devoid of reason and more inclined to emotion and parochialism. Such state of mind is prone to shortermsim and tunnel visionary. You’re absolutely right in saying that the concept of Somaliweyn has been abused and in general has served as tool for clan hegemony. The pioneers of somaliweyn although noble and genuine were wrong I will come back to this later (unfortunately their noble concept also has come to represent a veiled attempt to dominate others.) Let me now address the current realities in relation to Somalism. The chances of constituting the five angles of the Somali star are non-existence and actually undesirable and dangerous. The reason being nationalism based on ethnicity is un- developmental, primitive and promotes exclusivity. Having said that I think once the region develops the Somali regions together with the rest of E. Africa will be brought together by economic reality. Nationalism is its source in protectionism, once economies of the region develop the borders will come down and governments will become redundant in favour of regional authorities mirroring the EU. In other words economics created nationalism and economics will destroy it. Somaliland case.. Somaliland need to seceded I believe merely shows its under-development. Somaliland project represents the interest of the view ambitious politicians who manipulate the many into creating more layers of unnecessary bureaucracy. It’s uneconomical to want to break. And those who oppose secession are also motivated by veiled hegemonic ambitions. In other words brothers and Sisters our debate on nationalism and secessionism are absolutely redundant in 21st century. If we want rapid development and prosperity nationalism and parochialism has no place in such an endeavour. In other words both somaliweyn and secessionism are outdated; regionalism and open borders are the future. But as Somalis we are always two centuries behind, I don’t understand why our minds are unable to jump an epoch to the present realities. I believe our thought process for our regions should only be based on set of ideas that will bring peace and prosperity. Having thought about it I believe we should be encouraging regional integration that will see the borders between Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania, Rwanda, Burundi and Sudan coming down. I am may in danger of been accused of being a fantasist but this I believe is in the best interest of all and will bring about rapid development and prosperity while at the same time decreasing dangerous conflicts. This may be too much for many today but believe me its inevitable. In one words your current thinking is 100 years out of date and merely contributing to conflict while derailing the path to development.

A terrorist in a nutshell in the "other". It’s a weapons used to deafen cries or understanding of the other. We are the victims they are the terrorists. Terrorisms in other words it is tool that simplifies, rubbishes opposing voices. Terrorism is propaganda weapon fed to western media, which in turn implants it in our on conciseness as the viewers. The results are demonisation of the other and complete breakdown of communication and understanding of both sides Terrorism is also a word used to deflect or justify our own brutal deeds by painting it as "just war" or freedom wars against the "evil dowers" the other. Ours is clitoral damage while theirs is uncivilised brutish disregard of human life. The terrorist is the new communist

Lets be honest the main reason Somali men avoid single mothers is that she will have something to compare them to, get my drift?? This could only scare the less confident in our mist. I for sure would have problem hooking-up with SSM. I am a product of two single parents all the complications you mentioned never was a problem. If we as men are confident in ourselves then no reason why it shouldnt work. peace

People lets discuss this topic in a realistic manner devoid of emotion and wishful thinking. As already stressed by contributors here Somalis have committed many crimes and sins on Somalis. Therefore, knowing this and the extent of the distrust amongst each other, the only unity among us all will have to be based on and will be based on necessity by this I mean economic necessities. Economics always and eventually dictates politics. Economic growth in the region will bring integration and eventually entail unity. Therefore, for me I know unity will come but cant tell you when.

Lander good topic I think the way to somaliweyn is through two parallel routes that have to converge. Route one Economic inter-dependence: Like it or not the region will through development become inter-dependent, this will force those in power and business to seek integration to avoid bureaucracy and seek larger market. Route two As I said both routes have to parallel in there development, the second route will have to be through education, here the emphasis is education of consciousness education that frees the Somalis from primordial affiliation, education that seeks to enhance development through cooperation and co-existence. This two parallel routes converging will see in the longer-run somaliweyn, a somaliweyn which has real social and grass root bases and not imposed from above by elites who in reality have sinister motive and merely use somaliweyn as a board of their own individual or group progress.

Please do not be naive. Do u know the record of taylor in liberia and mañu river area as whole. this man has single hand~ely brough chaos to the region god riden. please ~investigate before coming up with conspiracy theories.