Eco. and Duke... why r u presenting the TFG AS THOUGH its a break from the past? i know i am wasting my time to engage with you two... cos its difficult or near impossible to dislodge fundamentalism.. but i wont give up although many have… Answer this if u may Why support characters that have raped, maimed, killed, enslave, a nation and a people? What brings you, seemingly educated Somali to support WARLORDS>> i cant simply understands.. Finally, before you accuse me of supporting the UIC let me say this… my opposition to the warlords of TFG and their invitation for the colonization of Somalia, doesn’t mean I support the backward UIC that wanted to take us back to the Middle Ages!! Please address your responses to the question... no drifting, or gymnastics... I am hoping your responses will not mere confirm the suspicions of many, for the sake of all us!!!

i have i missed something? when did the dicussion turn religious?

MJ... It took hundreds of years for the white ppl to invent the wheel!! r u suggestion we wait for the same time to reinvent it? There is something called the advantage of backwardness!!! Unfortunately God has blessed us with backward leaders!! and backward thoughts run through our veins with vigor!!... i say we don’t have to reinvent things we can jump from 0 to 200... see my point? or ur still climbing? Geel.. you need to stop playing the victim card all the time its getting boring!!! We are not victim of others but designers, contractors and perpetuators of our current predicament... the sooner we get this through our heads and move to a new chapter, the better… Blaming others for your problems devoids you, the responsibility to correct it

Why the west favors the others historically? Again Geel you’re a historical... Somalia received more Aid than any other Sub-Saharan nation during the cold war!! It was all used to by weapons or open foreign accounts!! Let me give you an insight; the West is a tool for gain or a tool of destruction... Example.. The UIC, they could have used with PR advisor. The UIC set itself up for wrath of the West by playing into the hands of its enemies! The Sheiks somehow thought they could act and say whatever, they wanted in Globalized and post-911 world ... if the UIC focused on consolidating there area of control, called for local election, and opposed the TFG on the grounds they were warlords the ICJ need to charge, welcomed Western Media to interview victims of the warlords etc, would have rendered TFG dead!! Rather they reinforced and embraced the tag afforded to them by Ethiopia and TFG by behaving accordingly!!! UIC played their game and justified their intervention... Geel, your preoccupation with religion and conspiracy, clouds you ability to see the bigger picture... As for you PARAGON! You have proved yourself as proponent of the politics confrontation.. The HORN is backward preciously because you're kind of politics has been in ascendancy... the POLITICS of Hope, Peace and Development, will prevail sooner or later!!! I think you're worried and scared of Peace:: Peace has rendered man-year merchants of war redundant... i wonder what many of you in SOL would be writing, when Peace reigns!! I suspect we would lose many brother and sisters!! Peace does do so… Its EASY to Point to an enemy and call for their destruction, is much HARDER to build and manage Peace!!!

Geel.. With due respect, i think you're adopting a tunnel vision approach to regional intergration... I dont know why you have bring religion into it!!! we have to accept, differences of kind.. i dont care which God ONE worships for me to do business with!! and by the way, th majority of Ethiopians are Muslim.. and 35% of Kenyans are muslim... M

Well put Munira..

Geel::: you are mixing things!!! The immediate and the long term, the economic and the political... Regional integration has been non-existent in the HORN of Africa, least developed part of Africa, not simply a coincidence set of events... once peace reigns in the region; we will be faced by the cold reality of economics…. Somalis in Ethiopia and in Kenya are poor, u proclaim… but so are the rest of the Kenyans and Ehiopians… Having resided in Kenya for long time I can tell you that Somalis are better than many others! Poverty doesn’t discriminate.. it doesn’t target a tribe or clan.. its profoundly equal in its devastation… In the political sphere Somalis are seen with suspicion, the reason being that many feel that Somalis inclined to be disloyal to Kenya… (Cant comment on Ethiopia not authority on that)—Somalis on the other hand haven’t sort to participate in the political system and don’t embrace education as other Kenyans… As we all know we have racial issue when it comes to other fellow Africans this too hasn’t help the Somali situation in the region! Before I drift away from the topic I just want to conclude by saying this—I am not preoccupied by the past, it’s the future that worries me… and if our future is of prosperity and co-existence then regional integration is a tool to that end… but if its one for domination and fighting more wars!!, then the proclamation of some in this thread is a formula to that end… I subscribe to the first… I want to see a peaceful and prosperous Somalis, Ethiopians, Kenyans and Africans.. I am tired being seen as object of pity and charity as Somali and African by the developed world!!!.. I want to own my future, and our future, a future of promise and pride in not how many we can kill, and render homeless, but how many we can educate... and for those interested...NO havent smoked anything today!!!

Castro Well, lets say am running of supplies cant share am affraid... on a serious note... regional intergration is not utopian but a reality in many parts Africa..ECOWAS for instant has 15 members states covering entire western africa!! its members can move freely and seek employment.. they are about to luanch a single currency the ECO... THEY have also commissioned regional energy supply etc... SADC the south african version too has similiar arrangments... closer to home the EAST African association (Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania) have move ahead with single parliment... free movement etc CASTRO... because we somalis have been reoccupied with primitive wars doesnt mean other r as stagnant!!! sooner or later we will have to join... so ur nationalism or whatever, else u into, will be smacked by the cold reality of economic intergration... think big!!!...

Geel i am not persuaded at all... look my brother.. the Masaai criss-cross two countries and i dont hear them calling for invasion or laying claim!! colonial legacy is something many africans countries suffer from Somalia is not unique in this regard I am of the persuasion of us and against them concept.. Somalis, kenyans, ethiopians and African are in the same boat and we need to work together to solve our collective problems... u will be surprised how much our problems are similiar, !!! poverty, famine, bad leadership governance etc with acceptance of regional economic integration as way to increase trade and lessen poverty, the entire regional will sooner or later will be integrated by economic necessity, and u will achieve u somaliweyne as result, and guess what, u will have kenyans, ugandans, rwandese, Tanzanians, ethiopians and eriterian as bonus!

Khalaf... thanks for your kind words... We Somalis need to move from the mentality of thinking war as means of solving issues!!! with denger of repeating myself... let me re-emphasis prochialism will take NO WHERE!!! WARS SOLVES nothing... our challenges are not to defeat a preceived enemy but to conquer povery and want!!!

I am disturbed about this topic!!! Planning of future wars!!! As someone who has lived in other somali territories, i think i see no logical or any other justification for greater Somalia!!! let it be, i say!!! and lets get our own house in order... IT'S SIMPLY A FAIL POLICY we need to accept this, and move on. We have failed to rule ourselves how can we ask other join a sinking ship? And by the way ETHIOPIANS/KENYANS etc r not our enemies... Meles is enemy of all of us... he has been terrorizing ethiopians for 16 years!!! FInally don’t kid yourselves if you believe they would be prosperous Somalia without a prosperous Ethiopia, or Kenya etc... our futures are intrinsically intertwined… period! Think big ppl… and not fantasy about how many of our kids we send to die for hallow objectives,, while u enjoy the security western tax payer afford u!!!

Finger pointing takes us no where!! Everyone one is liable played a role is buying us a one way ticket to the abyss, buying single return was always going be expensive but I think we have paid, with blood, sweat and embarrassment, it’s time we go out of this quagmire…. Rather than blaming, which clan did what, wouldn’t be better to draw a roadmap out of this hole we have come to accept as our home in the last 16 yrs? Most Somali clans have played a steering role in bring our nation to its knees.. i suggest we look for formulas out of this rather than further devising ways to even go deeper to abyss… The educated Diaspora, have primary responsibility in ending this madness... but rather i see we have employed our education to give clan/primitive identity sophisticated articulation.... The next natural trajectory Paragon finger pointing is to call for GENOCIDE!!! A final Solution!!! If that is not what you’re leading to then, what is the point of your blurb? People you need to grow out of this primitive thinking… cant we all just get along? and share our mother land!!! Am tired of being a REFUGEE people!!! You are not giving me any hope of going HOME SOON!! I have suggesting lets start a discussion on the SOMALIA WE WANT!!! And how to achieve it!!

come on ppl... dont be blaming our ills on IMF and WB!!! Paragon and Brown U ppl seem to advocating for socalistic/communist approaches that just dont work!!! capitalism is the only viable way to development... so stop ur naive approach to economics, things r not just simple!!!

From a non-Somali Source working in Somalia... > Dear friends, > > There is a humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in > Somalia and, if you are willing, you can help to bring > some momentum towards positive change by writing to > your MP. > > > > The main issues were covered well in the BBC's Today > programme this morning. Go to > www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ and look for > the broadcast at 07.12 on Somalia. Further points were > raised in the attached AP report, as covered by CNN. > > > > The human side to all this is: > > Ø Over 1,000 dead and 4,000 wounded civilians in > Mogadishu in the heavy fighting from 29 March-1 April, > which included indiscriminate shelling by Ethiopian > forces and helicopter gunships on civilian areas, and > further casualties since heavy shelling began again on > 20 April. > > Ø Over 320,000 people have fled Mogadishu since > February. The Kenyan border remains closed to refugees > fleeing the fighting, in contravention of > international humanitarian law. > > Ø There are confirmed reports of intimidation, > looting and rape of people fleeing Mogadishu by scores > of government and freelance militia at checkpoints on > all the roads out of the city. Public vehicles, which > normally have a security guard, are being disarmed by > government forces as they leave Mogadishu and are then > attacked and looted by both government and freelance > militiamen. > > Ø Displaced people are living in desperate > conditions without access to shelter, food, safe water > or medicines. Those who have the resources are renting > trees for shelter; others are living in the open along > the sides of the roads out of Mogadishu. > > Ø Other displaced people have managed to reach > central Somalia, where towns and villages are full of > people without any means to support themselves. The > better-off have managed to reach Somaliland in the > north, but their situation remains the same. > > Ø Widespread Acute Watery Diarrhoea (i.e. > cholera) has claimed 500 deaths by mid-April, and the > death rate is rising rapidly. > > Ø Seasonal rains have now started, aggravating > the crisis for people living in the open. The UN > issued a formal flood warning last week that heavy > rains in the Ethiopian highlands are expected to bring > floods by mid-May to areas around the Shabelle River, > where there are thousands of displaced people. > > > > Humanitarian access by international agencies has been > seriously impeded, if not blocked altogether, by > directives by the transitional Somali government, > which has refused to allow humanitarian flights to > land at airstrips around Mogadishu, blocked food aid > deliveries, and demanded inspection of all aid > deliveries (even though it does not have the mandate > to do this). There are numerous reports of > humanitarian agency staff being intimidated and > threatened by government and freelance militiamen at > road checkpoints, and of demands for payments in order > to deliver food aid, emergency shelter kits and > medicine. Given both the volatile military situation > and the blocks on humanitarian access by the > transitional government, the situation is > deteriorating rapidly. Ordinary Somali people feel > abandoned by the world in this crisis. > > > > The UK, along with other European donors and the US, > is continuing to fund both the transitional Somali > government and the Ethiopian government. This use of > British aid contravenes the UK Development Act, based > upon: > > (i) The illegal invasion of Somalia > by Ethiopia in December (without UN approval); > > (ii) Breaches of international > humanitarian law by all parties including Ethiopia and > the transitional Somali government, such as > indiscriminate shelling of civilian areas, demands > that civilians leave or face the consequences, and the > blocking of humanitarian aid. > > > > Continued UK (and European) funding of the > transitional Somali government in the current > circumstances is not only morally wrong, but directly > contravenes the UK Development Act (and the Cotonou > Agreement in the case of EC funds). It is imperative > that direct funding to the transitional Somali > government is suspended until: > > A coherent and verifiable ceasefire is in place > between all parties > The transitional Somali government observes all > applicable international humanitarian laws > Immediate humanitarian access is a reality on the > ground and a multi-disciplinary assessment team is > deployed to see what has been going on. > > You can assist in pressuring the British government to > act upon this unfolding crisis - and help save the > lives of thousands of innocent Somalis - by writing to > your MP and urging them to intervene and raise > questions in Parliament, particularly on the use of UK > funds in ways that contravenes UK law. > > > > Thank you

Tahiil Offcourse African benefited from Slavery. Where have u been? Dahomey Kingdom, Ashanti, and many other kingdom have been built on selling black people to wazungu.. THE Bazungu never went into the interior, they waited outside for the slaves to brought and exchanged for guns and mirrors>.. Please stop patronizing us by saying we are infants.. it is like saying we are inferior. The problem lays in our recent cultures which perpetuate greed, and small mindedness... This coupled with lack of leadership at all levels, results in a concoction, of anarchy, high infant mortality, mental slavery, refugeedom, parochialism and dependency among others!! How else do explain the current clan rivalry in Somalia and many SOL seemingly educated individuals supporting the actions of their kin regardless? Can there be Prosperous Somalia, without unity of purpose among us all? Can they be rich Somalia without equal rights? Can there be a progressive Somalia without understanding and dealing with different fears of different Clans? Would there be Ethiopian presence in Somalia without Somali collaboration? If the answer to all the above is No then how do explain what is happening NOW. Other than crises of leadership, lack of vision among us all and therefore as self inflicted pain. So stop blaming others the real source of our problems may be staring at u?

Tahliil... dont be naive... Colonialism/exploitation etc.. are essentially an exercise of colloboration, period!!! dont blame the bazungu! look closer to home....

The only way the US can prop up its client regime in Somalia is through lawlessness and slaughter by Salim Lone Saturday April 28, 2007 This is the most lawless war of our generation. All wars of aggression lack legitimacy, but no conflict in recent memory has witnessed such mounting layers of illegality as the current one in Somalia. Violations of the UN charter and of international humanitarian law are regrettably commonplace in our age, and they abound in the carnage that the world is allowing to unfold in Mogadishu, but this war has in addition explicitly violated two UN security council resolutions. To complete the picture, one of these resolutions contravenes the charter itself. The complete impunity with which Ethiopia and the transitional Somali government have been allowed to violate these resolutions explains the ruthlessness of the military assaults that have been under way for six weeks now. The details of the atrocities being committed were formally acknowledged by a western government for the first time when Germany, which holds the current EU presidency, had its ambassador to Somalia, Walter Lindner, write a tough letter - made public on Wednesday - to Somalia's president, Abdullahi Yusuf. The letter condemned the indiscriminate use of air strikes and heavy artillery in Mogadishu's densely populated areas, the raping of women, the deliberate blocking of urgently needed food and humanitarian supplies, and the bombing of hospitals. This is a relentless drive to terrify and intimidate civilians belonging to clans from whose ranks fighters are challenging the occupation. There was a time when security council resolutions were hallowed in most of the world, as for example resolution 242 demanding the return of occupied Palestine territory in exchange for peace. But in our new world order, the powerful decide which UN resolutions are passed, and whether they need to be honored. So the United States, which was violating the UN arms embargo on Somalia, rushed through another resolution in December that it thought would better serve US goals - and then proceeded to violate that one as well. The new resolution forbade neighboring countries from being part of the regional peacekeeping force the security council authorized for Somalia; but Ethiopia went much further and unilaterally invaded, with the covert assistance of the US - which also joined the war by bombing Somalia. This December resolution actually contravened the charter itself, because it made the security council the aggressor and turned a clearly peaceful situation into war. The resolution linked the Islamic Courts government to international terrorism and mandated peacekeeping force, on the basis of chapter VII of the UN charter, to address the "threat to international peace and security" that Somalia posed - when every independent account, including Chatham House's on Wednesday, indicated that the country was experiencing its first peace and security since 1991. The resolution paved the way for the Ethiopian invasion that has led to the bitter conflict that many independent analysts, including those at a meeting in Addis Ababa organized by Ethiopia's Inter-Africa Group, had warned would be the inevitable result. A government imposed through force by arch enemy Ethiopia was never going to hold sway. The long silence and the refusal even now to announce measures that might arrest this slaughter mark the lowest point in the big powers' abdication of the "Responsibility to Protect" mandate - adopted, with British leadership, at a summit-level meeting of the security council two years ago. The world's most impoverished people are now being ripped to shreds with no effort whatsoever to get the perpetrators to desist. A huge campaign must be launched to press western governments to end this slaughter, which is almost entirely the work of those in control of the country. The European Union warned a month ago that war crimes might have been committed in an assault on the capital last month - in which the EU could be complicit because of its large-scale support for those accused of the crimes. Human Rights Watch has documented how Kenya and Ethiopia had turned this region into Africa's own version of Guantánamo Bay, replete with kidnappings, extraordinary renditions, secret prisons and large numbers of "disappeared": a project that carries the Made in America label. Allowing free rein to such comprehensive lawlessness is a stain on all those who might have, at a minimum, curtailed it. Work must begin to derail the astounding proposal from the United Nations secretary general, Ban Ki-Moon, which is to be discussed by the security council in mid-June. He would like to mount a UN-sanctioned "coalition of the willing" to enforce peace and restore order in Somalia - in other words, the UN would help Ethiopia and the United States achieve what their own illegal military interventions have failed to accomplish: the entrenchment of a client regime that lacks any popular support. Such an operation is unlikely to succeed in any event, but it could further threaten the turbulent Horn of Africa, which is already teetering on the brink of chaos. The Somali government is busy crying "al-Qaida" at every turn and offering lucrative deals to oil companies, in a bid to entice greater western support. But this war was lost long ago. In turning to the arch enemy Ethiopia, the transitional government's fate was sealed: the nation will not abide an Ethiopian-US ccupation. Only a political solution will resolve this crisis. Africa must step up to the plate and show spine and leadership in a drive to protect its civilians, and work with Europe and the UN to convince the US to swiftly terminate its latest destabilising adventure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Salim Lone, who was the spokesman for the UN mission in Iraq after the 2003 invasion, is a columnist for the Daily Nation in Kenya

Castro Thanks for posting, this interesting development in Caracas.. I would like to take this debate back to the relevance of Breton wood institutions in the development of Somalia and Africa.. I would urge all to visit the IMF website at www.imf.org, then look at the Somali debt, the interests that we have accumulated since the money was forward to barre's regime, you will simply be astounded!! we will have to pay more than double what we borrowed! and it continues to go up! The most challenging tasks awaiting us is not the attainment of Peace.. this will be achieved sooner or later! But the defeat of poverty, underdevelopment, ignorance (clannism is one of them) and want! And am afraid to say none of our current crop of leaders have both the vision or capacity to tackle these issues.. the answer may lay in the Diaspora! but again they would need the invitation and the freedom to undertake that momentous task but do we have the leadership to realize this? i am not hopeful

Come ppl... T has been honest we all know what he means by "WE" no need to push the guy... The more and the quiker, ppl dislodge themselves from this cancer, the better for,our country and us ... T i commend u..

Castro! Ooch…what u have done Camiir is painful to watch!!! Camiir reassess u r cavalier approach..

well u may right thanks for the advice Jacay... let me go and make money!!

now been accused of posting alot, lol Violet , i think u havent read what i wrote, otherwise u wont be missing the point, would u now.. pls read again!! and comeback to me!

I love you too Violet!!! As A/Y supporter i am not suprised of ur dictatorial antics!

Ayoub... it may also be that they r unemployed and unemployable!!

Moderator thanks for considering my suggestion. The issue of multiple posting needs to be addressed in whatever, way in the future. My minuscle contribution is more to do with my job rather than being silenced... thanks again