Salafi_Online, This is the most spectacular and amazing defence I have ever seen of tyranny. What you are saying is that a ruler can do as he wishes with his people as long as he is not a "kufr"? This goes against my logic, and I am not the only one who feels that way. I wonder how much of these stem from the Ummayyads, that was the only way they could hold on to power, by claiming that it is a sin to depose them. May Allah SWT guide us. Viking, my logics does not take Precedence over the text! Its a matter of submitting to the Speech of the Messenger of Allah(salalhu alayhi wa salam)without asking why or how! My brother, i did not say they can do anything! there is a limit, they can do anything as long their orders/commands does not result in disobeying Allah tabaraka Wa Ta'aal! there is no obedience to the creature when there is Disobedience to the creature! Viking if you do not mind, i would like yo ask you this! i must of posted over 5 hadith about the Messenger of Allah(saw) concerning the oppressive rulers engulfed in sin! you said this goes against your logics! so my brother my qustion to you is do u think its permissable to contradict the messenger of Allah(sas) and his companions in order to establish a revelotion to overthrow these tyranns? because if you have something better then I , im willing to listen so that inshallah i see the light! Salafi does not use his own words, he cuts and pastes fatwas, and this is why I don’t condemn him. It has nothing to do with me agreeing or disagreeing with him. i couldnt agree more, so in reality he is not attacking me, but he is attacking the scholars, indirectly calling them sick, deseased...and all those lovely words he used! because the truth of the matter is, i do not write my post, I mere copy and past from the scholars!

These Quotes and many others show us that these Cult are the only people who know who is right who is wrong? what is right what is wrong? who is high who is low? whose deeds have been accepted by ALLAH whose not enz. Sahal brother since you studied with the student of Bin Baaz, Mashallah you must carry a great wealth of knowledge! you must have good grasp of the Shari'ah and the Usool of the deed! brother let me ask you this sincerely! (please do not go off on a tangent) just do me this one favour as your brother in islam! explain the following quotes to me! please save me from my ignorance! Al-Fudayl ibn ‘Iyaad (Rahimahullaah) said, “Do not sit with a person of innovation. Allaah has rendered his actions futile and has taken the light of Islaam from his heart.†[sharh Usoolul-I’tiqaad of al-Laalikaa’ee, 110. 260] Imam ash-Shaafi’ee (Rahimahullaah) said: “If the servant were to meet Allaah having committed every sin except Shirk, that would be better for him than if he were to meet Allaah with some deviant belief.†Imaam Ahmad (Rahimahiullaah) said: “The graves of sinners from People of Sunnah is a garden, while the graves of the pious ascetics from the People of Innovation is a barren pit. The sinners among Ahlus-Sunnah are the Friends of Allaah, while the pious among Ahlul-Bid’ah are the Enemies of Allaah.†Sa’eed bin Jubair (Rahimahullaah) said: “If my son were to keep the company of a sinning scoundrel upon the Sunnah that would be more beloved to me than if he were to accompany a worshipping innovator.†Arta’ Ibn al-Mundir (Rahimahullaah) said: “If my son were one of the sinful wicked people, that would be more beloved to me than if he were a Follower of Desires (i.e. a deviant).†Al-Hasan al-Basree (Rahimuhullaah) said: "From the person of innovation Allah does not accept Prayer, nor Fasting, nor Hajj, nor 'Umra, nor Jihaad, nor repentance, nor charity."Al-Laalikaa’ee (1/140, no: 280) Al-Hasan al-Basree (Rahimahullaah) said: "Allah does not accept anything from a person of innovation." Al-Fudayl ibn 'Iyaad (Rahimahullaah) said: "No action of the person of innovation is raised up to Allah." Al-Hasan Al-Basree said: "There is no backbiting with regard to (talking about) the innovator or the sinner who openly professes his evil."Al-Laalikaa’ee (1/140, no: 282) Al-A’amash reported that Ibraaheem (An-Nakha’ee) said: "There is no backbiting with regard to (talking about) the innovator."Al-Laalikaa’ee (1/140, no: 276) Ibn Al-Mubaarak said: "Al-Mi’allaa Ibn Hilaal is fine except when it comes to hadeeth, he lies." So someone among the sufis (i.e. ascetics) said: "O Abu ‘Abdir-Rahmaan! Are you backbiting?" So he said: "Be quiet! If we do not clarify this, how will the truth be made known from the falsehood?" Sharh ‘Ilal At-Tirmidhee of Ibn Rajab (1/349) and Al-Kifaayah of Al-Baghdaadee (91-92)

SAlafi_Online, I was just wondering, does a govt have to be declared "disbelievers" in order to depose them? What about IMMORALITY, SECULAR, GREED, UNHOLY ALLIANCES with the enemies of Islam, CORRUPTION, NEPOTISM, EXTRAVAGANCE etc? Are these criteria for deposing a govt and replace it with an Islamic one? Brother Viking you asked a great Question! to make a long story short ,†yes†they have to be disbelievers for one to depose them! Everything you mentioned would be classed as sins which do not lead to disbelieve (kufr)! I suppose you’d agree, Or else you would not have asked the question! The following are substantiations from the creed of Ahlul Sunnah concerning the oppressive Rulers! I placed them in three categories, (1) the Prophet(saw) (2) the companions (3) the Tabee’en(those who followed the companions) (1) The Prophet sallaahu alaihi wa sallam said, ".... I have left you upon clear guidance. Its night is like its day. No one deviates from it after me except that he is destroyed." [Reported by Ahmad, Ibn Maajah (no. 43) and al-Haakim. It is declared saheeh by Shaikh al-Albaanee in as-Saheehah (no. 937)] It is important to understand that Allaah has perfected this religion and has guided this Ummaah to the correct path in every affair.So much so that there is not area of human Activity except that Allaah openly illustrated and teaching us what’s halal and what’s Haram so that no being has an excuse! Hudhayfah ibn Al-Yamaan (radiallaahu ‘anhu said):“I said, ‘Oh Messenger of Allaah, we used to be in evil and then Allaah came with good and now we are in that. So will there be, after this good, more evil? He said, ‘Yes.’ And there will be after that evil, more good?’ He said, ‘Yes’ I asked, ‘How is that?’ He said: ‘There will be, after me, leaders that will not seek guidance from my guidance, nor will they follow my Sunnah. There will be among them men with hearts of devils in the bodies of people. ‘ I said, ‘What should I do, oh Messenger of Allaah, if I reach that time?’ He said: ‘Listen to and obey your leader even if he beats your back and your wealth is taken – listen and obey.’†[Reported by Bukhaaree, Muslim, Ibn Majah, al-Bayhaaqee] The Prophet sallaahu alaihi wa sallam said, ‘‘There are three things towards which the heart of a Muslim never shows hatred or rancour: Making one’s action sincerely for Allaah; giving obedience to the rulers (wulaatul-umoor); and sticking to the Jamaa’ah (united body).†[Ahmed and Tirmidhi] The Prophet sallaahu alaihi wa sallam said, “ Whosoever sees something from his leader of sin, then let him hate whatever occurs from sin. And let him not remove his hand from obedience, since whoever removes his hand from disobedience and splits off from the Jamaa’ah (united body), then he dies the death of Jaahiliyyah (pre-Islaamic times of ignorance).’’ [al-Bukhaaree (13/5) and Muslim (no. 1849)] Alaah subhanahu wa ta’ala says, “O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.†[4.59] The Companions asked the Prophet sallaahu alaihi wa salam, “O Messenger of Allaah! When you mentioned that there will be rulers, ‘you will approve of some things from them, and disapprove of others things.†They said: “So what do you command us to do?†He said: ‘‘Give them their right, and invoke Allaah, since He is with you.’’ ’Ubaadah (radiyallaahu ’anhu) said: ‘‘We gave the oath of allegiance to the Messenger of Allaah sallahu alaihi wa sallam that we would not oppose the command, not its people.’’ He said: ‘‘Except if you were to see clear disbelief (kufran bawaahan) about which you have a proof from Allaah.’’ Related by Muslim (6/17) The Prophet said: ‘‘The person must obey in whatever he loves, and in whatever he hates, in ease and in hardship, in willingness and un-willingness; except if he is commanded to disobey Allaah. So if he is commanded to disobey Allaah, then he should not listen, not should he obey.’’ Related by al-Bukhaaree (4/203) Al Barbahaaree (d. 329H) also said, "It is not permissible to fight the ruler or rebel against him even if he oppresses. This is due to the saying of the Messenger of Allah (salallaahu'alayheewasallam) to Abu Dharr al Ghifaaree, "Have patience, even if he (i.e. the Ameer) is an Abyssinian slave," (Reported by Muslim.) PROPHET MUHAMMAD (salallaahu'alayheewasallam) saying to the Ansaar, "Have patience until you meet me at the Pool," (Reported by Bukharee from Usayd ibn Hudayr.) (2) Abud-Dardaa (radhiallaahu anhu) said, “Beware of cursing the Rulers (Wullaat), for verily, cursing them is clipping (i.e., of the religion) and hating them is barrenness.†It was said, ‘0 Aboo Dardaa, then how should we behave when we see in them that which we do not like?’ He said, “Have patience, for verily, when Allaah sees that from you He will take them away from you with death.†[As-Sunnah, 2/488] Aboo Dardaa (radhiallaahu anhu) said, “Verily, the first (appearance) is the hypocrisy of a man is his censure and rebuke of his Ruler (Imaam).†[At-Tamheed 21/287] Anas ibn Maalik (radiallaahu anhu) said, “The senior amongst the Companions of Allaah’s Messenger (swallallahu alaihi wasallam) forbade us (saying), ‘Do not revile your Rulers (Umaraa), not act dishonestly with them, nor hate them and have taqwaa of Allaah and be patient — for verily the matter is close (at hand).†[As-Sunnah of Ibn Abee ‘Aasim, 2/488] Narrated Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman: "Subay' ibn Khalid said: I came to Kufah at the time when Tustar was conquered. I took some mules from it. When I entered the mosque (of Kufah), I found there some people of moderate stature, and among them was a man whom you could recognize when you saw him that he was from the people of Hijaz. I asked: Who is he? The people frowned at me and said: Do you not recognize him? This is Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman, the companion of the Apostle of Allaah (peace_be_upon_him). Then Hudhayfah said: People used to ask the Apostle of Allaah (peace_be_upon_him) about good, and I used to ask him about evil. Then the people stared hard at him. He said: I know the reason why you dislike it. I then asked: Apostle of Allaah, will there be evil as there was before, after this good which Allaah has bestowed on us? He replied: Yes. I asked: Wherein does the protection from it lie? He replied: In the sword. I asked: Apostle of Allaah, what will then happen? He replied: If Allaah has on Earth a caliph who flays your back and takes your property, obey him, otherwise die holding onto the stump of a tree. I asked: What will come next? He replied: Then the Antichrist (Dajjaal) will come forth accompanied by a river and fire. He who falls into his fire will certainly receive his reward, and have his load taken off him, but he who falls into his river will have his load retained and his reward taken off him. I then asked: What will come next? He said: The Last Hour will come. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 35, Trials and Fierce Battles (Kitab Al-Fitan Wa Al-Malahim), Number 4232)" (3) Ibn Sa'ad (Rahimahullaah) related that a group of Muslims came to al Hasan al Basree (d. 110H Rahimahullaah) seeking a verdict to rebel against al Hajjaaj. So they said, "O Abu Sa'eed! What do you say about fighting this oppressor who has unlawfully spilt blood and unlawfully taken wealth and did this and that?" So al Hasan said, "I hold that he should not be fought. If this is the punishment from Allah (Ta'aala), then you will not be able to remove it with your swords. If this is a trial from Allah (Ta'aala), then be patient until Allah's Judgement comes, and He is the best of Judges." So they left Al Hasan, disagreed with him and rebelled against al Hajjaaj - so al Hajjaaj killed them all. [Tabaqaatul Kubraa (7/163-165)] Imaam Ahmed (Rahimahullaah) said, “The description of the Believer from Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah (is): (Imaam Ahmed mentioned number of principles; however two were relevant to this subject) That he never (has) doubts in his faith, and he never declares any of the people of tawheed to be a disbeliever on account of a sin. That supplication is to be made for the Leaders of the Muslims, that they are corrected and reformed. That you do not take out your sword against them, that you do not fight in times of tribulations, but rather you stick to your home.†[usool us-Sunnah] Imaam Ahmed (Rahimahullaah) said, “Ninety men from among the Taabi’een, the scholars of the Muslims and of the Salaf and the Jurists of the various cities are (unanimously) agreed that the Sunnah upon which the Messenger of Allaah sallaahu alaihi wa sallam died is: (again Imaam Ahmed mentions a number of Usool, three were relevant to this subject) Having patience under the banner of the one in authority, in whatever condition he may be in, just or unjust,. That we do not set out (in revolt) against the Rulers with the sword, even if they are unjust and oppressive. That we do not declare anyone from among the people of Tawheed a disbeliever even if they commit the major sins.†[usool us-Sunnah] Imaam Aboo Bark al-Aajurree (d.360H Rahimahullaah) said: ‘‘It is not permissible for the one who sees the uprising of a khaarijee who has revolted against the leader, whether he is (a) just or oppressive (leader) - so this person has revolted and gathered a group behind him, has pulled out his sword and has made lawful the killing of Muslims - it is not fitting for the one who sees this, that he becomes deceived by this person’s recitation of the Qur‘aan, the length of his standing in Prayer, nor his constant fasting, nor his good and excellent words in knowledge when it is clear to him that this person’s way and methodology is that of the Khawaarij.’’ [Refer to ash-Sharee’ah (p. 28)] The Prophet said, “Listen and obey, even if the ruler seizes you and beats your back.†[/b]Related by Muslim (6/19) So it is obligatory to obey the ruler of the Muslims in obedience to Allaah, but if he commands disobedience (to Allaah), then he is not to be obeyed in this command, meaning: in the command of disobedience. However, he is still to be obeyed in other than that, from that which does not involve sin. As for dealing with the disbelieving (kaafir) ruler, then this differs depending upon the various situations. So if the Muslims have the power and capability to fight him, and to remove him from rule, and a Muslim ruler is present, then that is obligatory upon them, and this is from Jihaad in the Path of Allaah. As for when they are not capable of opposing him, then it is not permissible for them to instigate anything by oppression and disbelief, because this will result in harm and affliction upon the Muslims. The Prophet stayed in Makkah for thirteen years or his 23 years as a messenger and the government there was a disbelieving government. Despite this, whoever accepted Islaam from his Companions did not fight against the disbelievers. Rather, they were prohibited from fighting the disbelievers for this extremely long period of time, except after the Prophet migrated and a state was established and a community arose making them capable of fighting the disbelievers, this is the methodology of Islaam. So when the Muslims are under a kaafir government, and they are not capable of removing it, then they must hold firmly onto Islaam and their ’aqeedah. However, they should not endanger themselves by endeavouring to oppose the disbelievers, because that will only result in the destruction and annihilation of the da’wah (call). As for when they have power (quwwah) making them capable of Jihaad, then they should perform jihaad in the Path of Allaah upon the known Sharee’ah fundamentals. To recap, it’s not lawful to revolt or rebel against the ruler and neither is it permissible to Openly speak about the faults of the rulers, as this a smaller type of rebellion which encourages and incites the people to rebel and fight them. Rather it is from the Sunnah to supplicate for the rulers and to advise them privately. And some from amongst the Muslims have taken to believing that they will establish the religion by their innovated methodologies. And many of the youth have been duped into believing that the Sharia will be established by rebellions, and over throwing the authorities. This is a clear appalling innovation which came from the Khawarij. They rebelled against the ruler of the Muslims (‘Alee radi allahu anhu), claiming that he did not rule by the Sharia and that that he was an apostate. And this is the same thing we see today from the Khawarij, who have made Takfeer of the Muslims, and have deemed rebellion against the rulers lawful.

Viking i just noticed your post, inshallah walaal im pressed for time, ill get back to you on that!

quote: Really? First time i've heard it like that! this is where i got this from bother! Shaykh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah ( d.728H) said: "And know that most of the innovations connected to 'uloom(sciences) and acts of worship occured in this Ummah at the end of the period of the Rightly guided Khaleefahs; just asa the Prophet informed, when he said: "Those of you who live long after me will see a great deal of differences. So Hold fast to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the Rightly Guided Khaleefahs after me"...So when the period of the Rightly Guided Khaleefahs had passed and the rule of kingship appeared, deficiencies appeared in the leaders, and therefore deficiency spread also to the people of knowledge and Deen.So during the end of the rule of 'Alee (rta) - the innovation of the Khwaarij (5) and Raafidah (6) appeared; this being connected to the issue of leadership and khilaafah, and what was connected to this from actions and Shareeah rulings The kingship of Mu'aawiyah was a kingship of mercy, so when it passed , the rule of Yazeed(Muawiyah's son) came and fitnah (trials and discord) took place within it: the killling of al-Husayn in Iraaq, the fitnah of the people of Hurrah in al-Madeenah and the seige of Makkah when 'Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr made his stand. Then Yazeed passed away and the Ummah split-up. Ibn az-Zubayr in the Hijaaz, Banu Hakam in ash-Shaam (Syria, Jordan and Palestine) and the jump to power of Mukhtaar ibn Abee'Ubayd and others in 'Iraaq. All of this took place at the end of the period of the Companions, when there only remained the likes of 'Abdullah ibn 'Abaas, 'Abdullah ibn Umar, Jaabir ibn 'Abdullah, Abu Saeed al-Khudree and others. The innovations of the Qadarriyah (7) and the Murjiah (8) then occured and it was refused by those Companions who remained, as they had, along with others, refuted the innovations of the Khawaarij and the Raafidah. (Majmooul-Fataawaa (10/354-368) of Ibn Taymiyyah.) The arguement between Osama and the SAUD family is regarding the issue of inviting the non-Muslim troops to protect them. In the 1980's Osama and every Saudi scholar agreed it was correct to fight against the then ruler of Afghanistan when he called in troops from the USSR to protect him, what is the difference between that and the invitation of American troops to the holy lands by the monarchs of Saud? PS - DO YOU BELIEVE THE SAUD FAMILY RULE ACCORDING TO WHAT ALLAH ORDAINED? two things Osama Believes the royal Family are disbelievers(he makes takfir)! he is a khawarij, and the idiology of the khawarij is well known, inshallah its upon you to do some reseach on them! as for th USSR i have no idea what your talking about, i dont think i was even born then! but as far my limited knowledge is concerned the Russians attacked Afghanistan, and Osama sought the help of the Kufar( ie the USA) they supplied him and his troops with weapons! Osama and the USA were allies, so im not sure what your referring to! I do not remember reading anywhere the Saudi GOV or saudi scholars got involved in Afghanistan! PS - DO YOU BELIEVE THE SAUD FAMILY RULE ACCORDING TO WHAT ALLAH ORDAINED? Yes brother, and this is the views of Muqbil, Fawzan and Shyakh Anjaree, and bin baaz and uthaymin! taken from: http://www.al-ibaanah.com/articles.php?ArtID=77 "And our rulers in this land (of Saudi Arabia) are Muslims - all praise be to Allaah. They use Allaah’s Legislation for judging in their court systems and they establish the prescribed punishments (hudood). So declaring them to be disbelievers or talking about them in a manner that leads to revolting and rebelling against them is considered a great form of causing corruption. Due to this, we must warn against those who adhere to this methodology or rid ourselves from them, especially since they have attacked the scholars of this land by reviling them, making slanderous remarks against them and accusing them of betraying the Deen. This matter indicates what they are behind" basic principle is that: Men are known by way of the Haqq (truth) and the Haqq is not known by way of men. So it is obligatory on us to accept the truth and to worship Allaah, Lord of all worlds, by it, and to abandon everyone that treads an innovated methodology. And we must place as our role model, the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu 'alayhi wa sallam), his Khulafaa, his Companions, and those who followed them amongst the Imaams of guidance. And Allaah is the One who grants success.

Salafi It doesn't matter what I believe, just wanted to know if he fought against leaders of his time. Reading between the lines, I think your answer was YES, i'm i correct? If so, did he and his partners who created the monarchy have the permission of the Khalifah who was around at the time? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the Saudi government are not doing Shirk, they are not Kufar but Muslims, and its not permissible to overthrow them, even if they are Unjust! The fact that they seem oppressive does not give the youth or other then them the license to overthrow them or even speak ill of them,( backbiting is Haram and Allah did not sanction these such actions) Unless you have dalil of course! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You knew where I was going with this, didn't you? 1. I don't know about Shirk, but the SAUD family do not rule by what ALLAH ordained, do they? 2.“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliya (protectors to whom you have to be subordinate to), they are but Awliya to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Awliya, then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are wrong­doers. [5:51] i feel like im repeating myself, i was certain we cover these grounds! Brother no matter what there will always be people who will never be pleased with others no matter what they do! and this is a fact, everyone has enemies and everyone has friends! So as far as Abdul Wahhab is concerned, it is according to my believe that the Khalifah was Abolished after the death of Ali(ra) then Kinship replaced it, Mua'wiyah(ra) being the first king! AbdulWahhab and Al Sa'ood fought against and people we were committing clear kufr, so in this case its permissable to overthrow the ruling party if you have the power to due so! there is a hadith about this, its says obey those who are in power unless you see clear kufr which you have prove from Allah and you have the power to overthrow them! so AbdulWahab was following the Sunnah and the Shariyah! thats why the salafi Scholars love him, praise him, and Call him one of the greatest muhajid and scholars that lived! as for you second question, no scholar has declared Saudi government to be disbelievers! and for your ayah, i suppose you are saying that they Took the Kufar as Awliyah which would make then disbelievers! if your bold enough to say this! i say my man you have some balls there!

Brother Ayub my response is at the bottom of this! sorry for the long reply, but most of it is evidence that i could not neglect! What is more irrelevant was for you to begin posting in this thread with points regarding the Islam of Usama- as if this was the point. Look this is getting ridiculous, for the sake of Allah sister listen, the author called Osama a "Shaykh", (a form of praising) By Allah he is not a shaykh, if you read my initial post this was my point of reference! i couldn’t careless about what that guy wrote, as far as Im concerned his opinions carry no weight! for Allah's sake anyone can join the vulture culture(pin pointing the faults unlearned muslims, cause they are infinite),But when he said Osama is a shaykh, then it was upon me to shed some light on his conditions, you and I are not the only people reading these articles! Plus Ngonge wanted to know who the author was, and as far as the salaf are concerned they use to say a person his like his companions,( or judge a person by his companion) my first post had nothing to do with 9/11 or the political(not islam) war between Osama and the Kufaar! Whether or not this struggle will be accepted by Allah, is not for you or any other human being to decide akhi (unless of course you pronounce kufr on him). I’m sure you know of the story of the bani Israel, the one about the learned man and the sinner. We are not to believe completely nor deny completely the stories of the bani Israel, but in quoting it, the scholars are making the fundamental point that you do not know what Allah will accept and what He will Sister there is certain fundamentals of the deen, Allah does not accept the deeds of a Kafir and nor does he accept the deeds of Innovator until he relinquishes that innovation and his innovation earnes him a ticket straight to the fire if he does not relinquishes before death! These are basic principals! My brother fil minhaj, as for the author, it is called an opinion; don’t assume that all scholars are totally against Usama on all points. Sure enough like I’ve said, he may have faults, but not all scholars are as harsh against him as the Saudi scholars. Then its upon you to state your man!(instead of writing all this, you could have just copied and pasted the names of these scholars and their fatwahs) As far as politics is concerned, I lean more towards scholars that are not necessarily in support of their government (i.e. the scholars of the hijaaz)- I prefer the stances of Shaykh Al-Bani. He objected also, but in my opinion was more objective and kept things more in perspective. Now, don’t jump down my throat, I am in no way defaming any scholar. He was more objective to what? Sister please be more precise! I am not the only person reading your post! What do u mean? does Albani support the overthrowing of governments?!? We as Muslims are restricted from having opinions when it comes to Islam ! We act and speak upon proves! And when its an issue of Ikhatilaf(difference of opinion provided that they both have proves) we take from the most learned! BTW, Did you know that shaykh ibn baz rahimuallah, stated in a fatwa before he died that the greatest jihad on earth at that time was to fight against Saddam, mind you the Israelis and the Americans were in full force. He did? Then its upon you to show us this statement! also what is the Point of this?im sure he had his reason! Of course. To support someone does not necessarily mean you have to agree with them on each and every point. We support by default. Overall I believe he can make mistakes, but inshallah I hope his efforts will be accepted by Allah. Like I’ve said brother, this is the stance of the scholars on many similar issues(such as suicide bombings). i can stress this effort, just give us scholars name and their fatwah, I know of no Salafi scholar who support suicide bombing and this includes Bin Baaz, Uthaymin and Albani, and u can find all these speak audio, courtesy of fatwaonline.com Are you sure about that? Brother, I suggest you do a tad more reading. The Muslims, can overthrow any unjust leaders, so long as the benefit will be greater than the harm that may come of it. The conditions are very stringent brother, but I guarantee you that Islam makes way to replace a leader if he does not serve the interests of Islam. The fact that you sidestepped the hadith is one thing, but not showing a clear and concrete evidence is seriously damaging your posts! Why waste you time sister, if you have any evident that we can overthrow an unjust muslim( not a kafir) an unjust muslim ruler, I shall “hear and obey†! the burden of prove is on you, this “he said she said†rethoric is really becoming a nuisance! Yes many sister i know of many salafi scholars out side saudiyah such as Egypt, Jordan, Yeman, Somalia, and elsewhere Ibn Baz Article ID: 8 | 123 Reads Date: 10/4/1414 AH From Abdul Aziz ibn Abdullah ibn Baaz Legal Verdict Regarding Sayyid Qutb Article ID: 23 | 192 Reads Dictated by Abdullah ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Jibreen 26/2/1417 AH I thank you sister I knew of these fatwah, and these Qutubies have not cease( not saying u are one, but im sure u got it from there websites) attacking the salafi brothers, and they quote and old fatwa’s of the noble MayShaykh and purposely hind the truth! what's is more evil is that they promote and praise the people of innovations under the name of Salafi, I know this because my beloved Sister I was a devoted followers of these Qutubies Harakiyyeen, until Allah guided me from their deception! For example u posted three fatwahs by the scholars, these fatwahs are the trophy of the Qutubies! the innocent and new salafi who love these scholars usually fall for these deceptions, much like myself, however Alhamdulillah there is always people out there who allah uses to rebut their faleshood, (again ukti FilLah is this is directed towards you) just an observation i made when I was an avid adheer to their so called Salafi Manhaj and webpages! As far as your quotes are concerned, you have neglected some vital fatwas following these old ones! Perhaps u were not aware of them! And if this was between you and I Sister, I wouldn’t bother repling to any of this, but Allah knows best how many people are reading this, and if I left without clarifying any of these errors I would be held accountable! Ibn Baz Article ID: 8 | 123 Reads Date: 10/4/1414 AH From Abdul Aziz ibn Abdullah ibn Baaz Not the date of your fatwah, and then note this in reply: In the month of Rajab 1415h, a sitting took place in the house of the noble Shaykh Bin Baaz in the presences of a group from the mashaykh and the student of knowledge. One of the of the Qudaat(judges)present asked the noble shaykh, saying,â€Respected Scholar, are there any errors and observation upon safar and salmaan?The shaykh replied,â€Yes Yes (twice for emphases), they have evil orientation towards the rulers, and also and opinion concerning this state. They Also incite the youth and encourage the general people to attack. And this is from the manhaj of the Khawarij, and their cassettes inspire towards this†The Qadee(judge) said,â€Oh Shaykh does this reach the level of innovation?†The shaykh Replied†there is no doubt that this innovation is something that is unique to the khawarij and the Muta’zilah. May Allah guide them, May Allah guide themâ€( article Id #s: NDV120006, spubs) Shaikh Ibn Baz (Rahimahullaah) and the Permanent Committee of Scholars issued an official request to the King of Saudi Arabia to use his power to stop Safar and Salman from spreading their Baatil said “So I inform your highness that the Sitting of the Committee of Major Scholars saw the aforementioned letter of your highness, along with its addenda: abrigment of some gatherings and lessons given by the two aforementioned (the King had mentioned Safar and Salman and this is what Shaikh Bin Baz is refering to), beginning grom the start of Muharram 1414h, and a copy of the book of Safar al Hawali “Wa’du Kissingerâ€; and it discussed the topic from all its angles. It also examined some of the cassettes of the two of them. So after studying and discussing this, the Committee held – by total agreement - that: “The two aforementioned are to be faced with their errors that were presemted before the Committee – along with the errors forwarded by the government, and in which two of the people of knowledge are to participate- to be chosen by his excelllency the Minister for Islamic Affairs, Awqaaf, Daawah, and Irshad. So if the two of them excuse themselves for their transgressions and agree to comply to not returning to any of them, nor to the like of them, then all praise to Allaah, and that is sufficient. But if they will not comply, then they are to be prevented from giving lectures, seminars, khutbahs, public lessons, and from making cassettesm – in order to protect the society from their errors: may Allaah guide them both and direct them both to the right conduct.†[Courtesy of Salafipublications.com] and to this day we have not witness any repentence! instead they perform takfiri on the issue muslims, and label Albani with Irja(an trait of the Murji'ah, a deviated group) Safar al-Hawali stated, "Rather, one who fights partisanship for madhabs has himself fallen into it (Irjaa'), such as Shaikh al-Albani" [Dhaahirat ul-Irjaa' pg.658] Shaikh Uthaimeen (Rahimahullaah) was asked, "...some people say that Shaikh al- Albani (Rahimahullaah) his position on the issues of Imaan is that of the Murji'ah. What is your veiw on this?" He replies,†Do not listen to those who accuse Shaykh Albani of being Murj’I or have irja (which includes Safar and Salmaan) for they are takfiris who desire to make Takfir(calling other muslims disbelievers) of the people in falsehood and this is a slander and a lie upon Shyakh ALbani"[Dhaahirat ul-Irjaa' pg.658] Imaam al-Albani was asked concerning the book, "Dhahiratul-Irjaa fil-Fikr al-Islami" of Safar al-Hawali, and in this book takfir is performed on account of certain sins! He replied: "I gave my viewpoint on a matter about thirty or so years ago when I used to be in the [isamic] University (of Madinah) and I was asked in a gathering about my opinion on Jamaa’at ut-Tabligh. So I said on that day, ‘They are the Sufis of this era’. And now it has occurred to me that I should say about this Jamaa’ah who have emerged in the present times and who have opposed the Salaf, I say here, in accordance with the statement of al-Hafidh adh-Dhahabi: They have opposed the Salaf in much of the issues of manhaj, and it is befitting that I label them the Khawarij of the era. And this resembles their emergence at the current time – in which we read their statements – because they, in reality, their words take the direction and objective of that of the Khawarij in performing takfir of the one who commits major sins. And perhaps I should say, this is either due to ignorance on their behalf or due to devised plot!! And I say this in light of [the statement of Allaah], "Let not the hatred of a people make you depart from justice. Be just and fair and that is closer to taqaa". I do not know whether they say that every major sin takes one outside the fold of Islaam! However, they always revolve around certain major sins but remain silent or just pass by other major sins! And for this reason I do not see that we should make this label absolute, and that we should say, ‘They are Khawarij’, except from certain aspects. And this is the justice that we have been ordered to abide by…" [The Cassette:The Surooriyyah are the Khawarij of the Era, end of the first side]. Dated 17th Dhul-Hijjah 1417H Then Albani says Shaikh al-Albani (Rahimahullaah) stated, after explaining with proof that his belief in Imaam is that of Ahlus Sunnah and not that of the Murji’ah and that his stements regarding Imaan are the same as the explanation by Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, “and then there come - in the present times - reckless ignoramuses, who are but young newcomers accusing us of Irjaa!! To Allaah is the complaint of the evil that they are upon, of ignorance, misguidance and scum..." [Adh-Dhabb al-Ahmad an Musnad al- Imaam Ahmad, p.33 (1999, 1420H)] Uthaymin was asked about Albani's irja Al-Albani is a man from Ahlus Sunaah (Rahimahullah), a defender of it, an Imaam in Hadith. We do not know of anyone who has surpassed him in our time. However, some people - and we ask Allaah's pardon - have jealousy in their hearts. For when (one of them_ sees that a person has been met with acceptance (by the people), he begins to find fault with him on the account of something, just like the hypocrites, those who used to defame those believers who would gove freely in charity - and those (hypocrites) who would find nothing but the striving of (the beleivers). So they would defame the one who gave charity in abundance, and also the poor person who would give charity! We know this man from his books (Rahimahullaah) and i know him from sitting with him on occassions. He is Salafi in Aqeedah, of sound manhaj. However some people desire to perform Takfir of the servants of Alaah on account of something that Allaah did not pewrform Takfir of them. Then they claim that whoever opposes them in this Takfir is a Murji' - a lie, slander, and mighty fabrication. Therefore, do not listen to this saying regardless of whomever it comes from [Taken from the cassette series, "Makaalamaat Ma'a Mashaayikh ad-Da'wah as-Salafiyyah" (part 4), 12/6/2000CE.] Shaikh Uthaimeen was asked about Safar and Salman: "May Allaah bless you. The good that is in their cassettes is also found in other than their cassettes, and their cassettes have some observations against them, some of their cassettes, not all of them. And I am not able to distinguish between them for you - I (am not able) - between this and that!! Then he was asked: In that case you advise us not to listen to them? Shaikh Uthaimeen: "No (do not listen to them). I advise you to listen to the cassettes of Shaikh ibn Baaz, the cassettes of Shaikh al-Albaani, the cassettes of the scholars who are known for uprightness and integrity (i'tidaal), AND WHO ARE NOT KNOWN FOR REVOLUTIONARY IDEOLOGY (THAWRAH FIKRIYYAH)"!! [Cassette: Ismael Omari] then the shaykh was asked whether the difference between Salman and the rest of the scholars is from aqeeda or not The questioner asked,â€Oh Shaykh,even in this matter, for example there is a difference (ikhtilaf) so they make takfir of the rulers and they say that this jihad for, example in Algeria these Youth listen to the cassette of Salman and safar. So is this khilaf(difference) or is it a difference of aqeeda(creed) oh shaykh! He replies: “ NO this is a difference of Aqeeda because it is from the Usool of Ahlul Sunnah that we do not make takfir of anyone on account of sinâ€[Cassette: Ismael Omari] Ibn 'Uthaymeen warns the Muslims from the Salafi Group Ibn 'Uthaymeen Article ID: 9 | 303 Reads what was the point of you posting this?!? Sister did I ever call anyone misguided, without a scholar preceding me, wallah sister I cant believe you would use a Shaykh I love dearly to attack me! And if that was not the intend then what were your puporse? And Allah honours his servants! I call on all the nomads on this forum, to be my witness I have never never ever ever called anyone misguided without, the kibar Ulama preceding me!(unless you saying Uthamin is warning against the Albani and Fawzan and the rest of Ulama) im astonished you did this! Anyways as far as I know this fatwah is concerning those kids, and youth who call people "misguided" upon whims, without dalil or a scholar preceding them! Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said: "And in the face of those who perform takfir in falsehood are a people who do not know the aqidah of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah as it truly should be known, or they know some of it but are ignorant of some of it. Yet whatever they do know of it, they do not always explain it to the people but conceal it. And they do not forbid the innovations that oppose the Book and the Sunnah, nor do they rebuke the People of Innovations and neither do they punish them. In fact, they may even criticise absolutely any talk of the Sunnah and the fundamental principles of the religion [i.e. Tawhid etc.]. Or they may accommodate everyone, with all their varying madhhabs… This approach has overcome many of the Murji’ah, some of the Jurists, Sufis and Philosophers. And both of these two approaches (i.e. that of the Takfiris and the Murji’ah and those with them) are deviant, and outside the [confines of the] Book and the Sunnah." [Majmoo’ ul-Fatawa (16/427)] And I thought this might be an interesting point: Legal Verdict Regarding Sayyid Qutb Article ID: 23 | 192 Reads Dictated by Abdullah ibn Abdur-Rahman ibn Jibreen 26/2/1417 AH MOst people think its an interesting point, and I too thought it was an interesting point, until I read The scholars reply and refutation of Ibn Jibreen to such extend that they used harsh words!As far as I know to this day he has not responded to one single of these refutation from the kibar Ulama! "Refutation of Shaikh Ibn Jibreen by the People of Knowledge on the Issue of Qutb and Bannaa†As for the refutation of Shaikh Ahmad bin Yahyaa an-Najmee, then it is the longer of the two, and is the most powerful, and uses some harsh language (bearing in mind that the Shaikh is senior to Ibn Jibreen) in outlining the great injustice of Ibn Jibreen in his accusations. The book is called "Radd ul-Jawaab 'alaa Man Talaba Minnee 'Adam Tab' al-Kitaab" (The Return of the Reply To The One Who Requested Me Not To Print the Book). This is 40 pages long, in A4. Shaikh Ibn Jibreen had requested from the Shaikh that he does not print his most excellent work entitled "Al-Mawrid al-Adhb az-Zulaal Feemantuqida Alaa Ba'd al-Manaahij ad-Da'awiyyah Min al-'Aqaa'id wal-A'maal" (The Cold Sweet [Flowing] Spring Water [That Quenches (the Thirst)] Concerning What Can Be Criticised Of Beliefs and Actions Of Some of the Methodologies of Da'wah). This book is a detailed, reference-filled, authoritative refutation of the overall methodologies of Jamaa'at ut-Tabligh, and Ikhwaan ul-Muflisoon, with details of their history, founders, developments, deviations and many other issues. It also contains an excellent and detailed refutation of Hassan al-Bannaa and Muhammad Ilyaas, and their great deviations and heresies, and who were far astray from the aqeedah of the Salaf. The book is 340 pages in total. And everyone can read it, Ibn Jibreen has yet to respond! http://www.al-ibaanah.com/ebooks.php?EID=15 (2) As for the second, the reply by Shaikh Zaid al-Madkhalee, it is around 6 pages in length, and follows the same type of reply given by Shaikh Ahmad bin Yahyaa an-Najmee. Shaikh Zaid makes mention at the very beginning that he was saddened to see a Shaikh like Ibn Jibreen being associated with the CDLR of al-Mis'ary, being taken unawares, and then he was made to think that the likes of Qutb was just like the great scholars of the past, who had great knowledge, but who erred in some areas. And that this false perception led the Shaikh to transgress against his brothers, the Shaikhs in Madeenah, such as Shaikh Rabee', Shaikh Salih as-Suhaymee, Shaikh Muhammad Naasir bin al-Faqeehee and others. Then the Shaikh goes on to remind Ibn Jibreen of some of the calamities of Sayyid Qutb. Likewise he addresses the issue of Hassan al-Bannaa, and some of his calamities. The Shaikh then refutes some of the claims made by Ibn Jibreen in his statements in defence of Bannaa and Qutb, and Abdur-Rahmaan Abdul-Khaaliq. The Shaikh finally mentions the four pages of Shaikh Bakr Abu Zaid and that Shaikh Rabee' has replied and refuted them with what is sufficient. (3) Then ALbani refutes Ibn Jibreen indirectly! "Leave Sayyid Qutb, because he is a regular individual. We praise him for his efforts, his jihaad, but this does not in any way change the fact that he was really only a writer. He had literary skills, but he was not a scholar. So there is no surprise that a number of things would come from him which contradict the correct methodology. As for those who were mentioned along with him, like an-Nawawee and ibn Hajar, it is wrong and oppressive to refer to them as being “among the people of innovationâ€. I know that they were amongst the Ash‘arites, but they did not intend to contradict the Qur’aan and the Sunnah. It is only that they mistakenly thought two things regarding the ‘aqeedah which they had inherited from the Ash‘arites! (source ttp://www.bilalphilips.com/qa/fatwaa03.htm) And Ibn jibreen does not even come close to the status of Albani! Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said: "And in the face of those who perform takfir in falsehood are a people who do not know the aqidah of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah as it truly should be known, or they know some of it but are ignorant of some of it. Yet whatever they do know of it, they do not always explain it to the people but conceal it. And they do not forbid the innovations that oppose the Book and the Sunnah, nor do they rebuke the People of Innovations and neither do they punish them. In fact, they may even criticise absolutely any talk of the Sunnah and the fundamental principles of the religion [i.e. Tawhid etc.]. Or they may accommodate everyone, with all their varying madhhabs… This approach has overcome many of the Murji’ah, some of the Jurists, Sufis and Philosophers. And both of these two approaches (i.e. that of the Takfiris and the Murji’ah and those with them) are deviant, and outside the [confines of the] Book and the Sunnah." [Majmoo’ ul-Fatawa (16/427)] Brother Ayub, the history of the great shaykh Abdul Wahhab has been distorted by the greatest enemies of Ahlul Sunnah, namely the Sufies, Shias and the lowest of mankind, the kufar, So what you know of the Noble Shaykh All depends on who’s information you were expose to! Here is a short overview of his true history! THIS IS A SHORT BIOGRAPHY OF THE BEST OF REFORMERS AND THE GREATEST OF MUJAHIDS AND A RENOWNED SCHOLAR OF ISLAAM He lived during a time when the Arabian Peninsula was engulfed with shirk, superstitions and innovation, there was no sign of tawheed in Mecca and Medina let alone others cities! People use to pray to their death father rather then Allah, So the Shaykh (as he was instructed by the Messenger of Allah(saw) who said,â€Fight those who indulge in kufr when you have the power to overthrow themâ€) Alhamdulillah; the noble Shaykh and his ally, Sa’ood, had the power( with the help of Allah) to overthrew these mushriks thus quenching shirk and replacing it with Tawheed, he an So’ood took over the Arabia Peninsula and renamed “ Saudi Arabia†who followed the creed of the Salaf Us Saalih! the Saudi government are not doing Shirk, they are not Kufar but Muslims, and its not permissible to overthrow them, even if they are Unjust! The fact that they seem oppressive does not give the youth or other then them the license to overthrow them or even speak ill of them,( backbiting is Haram and Allah did not sanction these such actions) Unless you have dalil of course! This is what Al As-Sa’ood said, Stated ‘Abdul-Azeez bin Abdur-Rahmaan Aal as-Sa’ood, "Indeed I am Salafi, my aqidah is Salafiyyah, by whose requirements I traverse upon the Book and the Sunnah". (Stated during the pilgrimage of 1965, ‘Al-Mushaf was-Sayf’ p.135). Ngone Akhee baarakallahu feek, that’s all I ask Sahal to do, if the brother observes something he dislikes from my post, all I ask is that he refutes my points without insulting(the reasons i avoid him, his because his topics are fruitless he brings nothing to the table but emotions) I may disgree with Rahima on many fronts, But this does not mean its permissible for me to attach her! This is one of the characteristics of a hypocrite, when they argue they become violent with emotions!

^^^ I would have to disgree, if memory serves me right, the messenger of Allah(saw) said, there are three things that cure the human body, Honey, Cupping, and (forgot the exact word he use) but its has to do with fire, He has forbidden this ummah to use the latter cure, and he recommends honey! Sensual Healing Baarakallahu feekee, Mashallah intersting stuff there, but even if i was suffering from these ailments, not sure if i take these prescriptions, some of them do not taste good!

^^ Im not sure i know what you mean BRother, i know of NO khawarij who was a leader!

If you want to know about the evils of this innovation, then you must go to the courts and police stations of Pakistan (and certainly in the other Islamic countries too, but I am only witness in case of Pakistan). You will see strange types of cases in court. For example, women come in courts and claim that their respective husbands divorced them thrice in anger. But their respective husbands deny any kind of divorce. From the prospect of women, they are telling the judges in courts, that they cannot stay any more with their men as they divorced them thrice in anger. And now they have come back to their senses and don't want to give them freedom. And if they are compelled to go back to them, then it would constitute (as they have become Haram for them after getting divorce). Sister do u mind shedding some more light on this, cause i really did not understand what were saying!

wheter Bin Laden was behind 9/11 or not is irrelevant, i would never take the words of A kafir over a muslim even if he is a takfir kharaji, however, this does not diminish the misguidance of Osama! he is more harmful to me then Bush ! while bush can kill me and hurt me physically, Osama can corrupt my heart and distort my Aqeeda! and the choice is Usama vs the kuffaar (that is a clear cut situation). There was no reason for all of this, I don’t believe anyone was discussing the Islam of Usama (apart from yourself), but nonetheless, jzk. I was certain you were going to say that, so “we are either with the Usama or with with the Kufar†, and what if I said im with neither, I fine both of their actions repulsive. I clearly showed that Osama’s actions are not in line with the Kitab and Sunnah understood by the Salaf, but politically driving !So what good is his actions when, when the salaf use to say, Al-Hasan al-Basree (Rahimuhullaah) said: ." "From the person of innovation Allah does not accept Prayer, nor Fasting, nor Hajj, nor 'Umra, nor Jihaad, nor repentance, nor charity." and you in spite of all this you still support him! Cajib wallah! my sister fil Minhaj; The reason why we are discussion Osama status is simple, the author of that piece, called Osama a “Shaaykh†someone to be followed and looked up to, this is when I and another nomad interjected! To say for example that the Saudi Royal family needs to be overthrown (constitutes a deviation for them) or to speak well of Shaykh Safar and Shaykh Salman is a big NO NO. According to SPUBS, I am in the wrong for praising these two shuyuukh and if I were to do so in public (assuming I was a speaker who did so at a lecture), I would be shunned and my name tarnished in their forums. Sister with all to respect, as a salafi wallah I expect much more from you, its not Spubs who says it’s a big no no! Overthrowing the muslim Government according to our minhaj is a “no noâ€, unless you see clear Kufar, yet this is still a " “no no" untill you have the power to overthrow them, The Prophet sallaahu alaihi wa sallam said, ." "There will come leaders who will not follow my guidance and will not follow my sunnah. There will be amongst them men who will have the hearts of devil and bodies of humans." Hudhaifah asked, "What shall I do, o Messenger of Allaah if I reach that?" He replied, "you should hear and obey the ruler even if he flogs your backs and takes your wealth, then still hear and obey." [Reported by Muslim (Eng. trans Vol 3/1029/34554)] The Prophet sallaahu alaihi wa sallam said, “ Whosoever sees something from his leader of sin, then let him hate whatever occurs from sin. And let him not remove his hand from obedience, since whoever removes his hand from disobedience and splits off from the Jamaa’ah (united body), then he dies the death of Jaahiliyyah (pre-Islaamic times of ignorance).’’ [al-Bukhaaree (13/5) and Muslim (no. 1849)] Imam al Barbahaaree (d. 329H Rahimahullaah) said, "Whoever rebels against a Muslim ruler is one of the Khawaarij, has caused dissent within the Muslims, has contradicted the narrations and has died the death of the days of ignorance." [sharhus-Sunnah (p.42)] Imaam Ahmed (Rahimahullaah) said concerning the rulers, “And the killing of the one in power is not lawful, and nor is it permissible for anyone amongst the people to revolt against him. Whoever does that is an innovator, (and is) upon other than the Sunnah and the (correct) path.†[usool us-Sunnah] The messenger of Allah(saw) and the salaf's position is clear! so what would you say if a person blatantly contradicted these narration? Is he still a salafi? My Beloved sister My Allah gives us Tawfiq According to SPUBS, I am in the wrong for praising these two shuyuukh and if I were to do so in public (assuming I was a speaker who did so at a lecture), I would be shunned and my name tarnished in their forums. likewise Praising Ahlul Bi’dah is a" no no," unless you believe takfir is not bi’ah BUT sunnah! and revolting against the muslim rulers is not Bida'ah but Sunnah! Shaikh Ibn Baaz (Rahimahullaah) was asked, "The one who praises Ahl ul-Bid’ah, is he to be counted amongst them?" So he replied, "Yes, there is no doubt about this, the one who praises them is one who actually calls to them". [Cassette: Aqwaal ul-Ulamaa Fee Sayyid Qutb] Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimahullaah) said, "It is obligatory to punish everyone who ascribes himself to them – the people of innovation – or who defends them, or who praises them, or who reveres their books, or who detests that they should be talked about, or who begins to make excuses for them by saying he does not understand what these words mean or by saying that this person also authored another book and what is similar to these types of excuses, which are not made except by an ignoramus or a hypocrite. Rather, it is obligatory to punish everyone who knows of their condition and did not assist in repelling their evil, for repelling their evil is one of the greatest of obligations." [Majmoo’ ul-Fataawaa (2/132] So like I said, Spubs and their sisters only follow the salaf and the salafi scholars, as I mentioned before, if you know of any articles where they perform unnecessary attack on other Muslims, I would be the first to advice them, and if they do not recant their articles I would abandon them for the sake of my religion! Furthermore, it is no business of mine whether you browse Spubs or not, however when you speak about their orginatization with a negative tone, then it’s my duty as a muslim to clarify the situation! For He subhanahu wa ta’ala said, “You are the best of the nations raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah…†[3.110] i have already showned the stands of the salafi Scholars concerning Salman and Safar

At the risk of derailing the topic further and kindling another argument between the two of us Inshallah I shall conclude with this!(Sol is back online i see) “The point that apparanetly Usama is guilty of all that he is accused of. If I committed a crime today, got busted and then attributed it to you, is it correct then for Baashi to assume that you are automatically guilty? People make claims and so far I have not seen any clear proofs that Usama is guilty of the crimes he is accused of. I give my fellow brother (with all his flaws, God only knows that our flaws are far worse) the benefit of the doubt. He has not admitted to them and there is no proof of it than heresay.†Bin Baaz said the following in 1999 just before his death( May Allah grant me his company) “…it is obligatory to destroy an annihilate these publications and that what has emanated from al Faqeeh, and from Masaree, or from other then the two of them from the callers of Faleshood, and from the callers of evil and falsehood and not be lenient towards them(…) it is not permissible for anyone to co-operate with them in this evil. And its obligatory upon them to be sincere and to come back to guidance. to leave alone and abandon this falsehood, So my sincere advice to al Masa’re, Alfaqee and bin Laden and all those who traverse upon their way is to leave alone this disastrous path and to fear Allah and beware of his revenge and his anger and to return to guidance…(to the end of the fatwah) Fatwah can be found in the 9th volume of Majmoo’ul Fatwa Wa Maqaalaataatul-Mutanawai’ah also www.ibnbaz.org) It’s clear to the mind with distinct mental insight, the noble Shaykh pigeonholes Bin Laden and his companions as misguided and upon Evil, to such extend that their actions may Earn Allah’s revenge and Anger! Bin Baaz is not one who is known to speak on impulse. Granted anyone can claim Bin Baaz Erred, But the burden of prove is upon them. a muslim’s Creed(Aqeeda) and faith is at stake, indeed The noble Shaykh would not and has not defame and oppress a muslim who did not earn denigration! And I say this with the utmost conviction! Then we have the noble Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Hadi al-Madkhali, a professor at the Islamic University of Madina who record the disciples of Bin laden were polished into impetuous Takfir(Those who call others muslims Disbelievers) by their “SHAYKH†Osama Bin Laden AlKharijee, “The majority of our youth that returned from the jihad in Afghanistan to our country were affected, either by the ideology of the Ikhwan (the group al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) in general, or by the revolutionary, takfiri ideology. So they left us believing that we were Muslims, and they returned to us believing that we were disbelievers. So with that, they saw us as being disbelievers, the rulers, and the scholars, not to mention the common folk. They labeled the (Saudi) state apostate, and they rendered the major scholars apostate. They admitted this with their own mouths. They declared the scholars to be disbelievers, and mentioned specifically the two Shaykhs, Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin al-Uthaymin, may Allah preserve them. They mentioned their connection with al-Masari and Osama Bin Laden. Did they get this from the salafi scholars? No! Rather they got it from the people of takfir." Reference(Abul-Hasan Maalik, In Defense of Islam, (T.R.O.I.D. Publications 2002, p. 97.) student of Muqbil a recent dialogue between Dr Saleh Saleh and I Salafi_Online: akhee as salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa baarakatu, quick question inshallah, is it true that Osama bin Laden is a takfiri? fairness-1: wa'alaykum as-salaam wa Rahmatu llaah wa Barakaatuh fairness-1: from what is apparent in his several communications and addresses is that he declares the rulers Kuffaar. etc.. Salafi_Online: yea shaykh i have also heard that his takfir is not restricted to the Rulers but also those scholars in the kingdom , Salafi_Online: is there any truth to these claims? fairness-1: I dont have a proof for him declaring them Kaafir's ..but his methodolgy ..like the rest of the politically driven groups is that they dont give these scholars the proper estimate they deserve unless they agree with them. Salafi_Online: khair inshallah wa baarakallahu feek fairness-1: wafeeka Baarak fairness-1: was-salam Salafi_Online: walaykum salam wa rahmatullahi wa baarakatu Then From the words of Bin Laden; In an interview which appeared in the takfiri/jihaadee magazine Nida'ul Islam, Bin Laden performs unrestricted takfir (declares them to have left the fold of Islam) upon the present day Muslim governments: "At the same time that some of the leaders are engaging in the major acts of disbelief, which takes them out of the fold of Islam in broad daylight and in front of all the people, you would find a fatwa (verdict) from their religious organisation. In particular, the role of the religious organisation (i.e. the Salafi scholars) in the country of the two sacred mosques (i.e. Saudi Arabia) is of the most ominous of roles, this is overlooking whether it fulfilled this role intentionally or unintentionally, the harm which eventuated from their efforts is no different from the role of the most ardent enemies of the nation." Continuing in his reference to the presence of the organization of Salafi scholars in Saudi Arabia, Bin Laden terms the Standing Committee for Issuing Religious Verdicts "an idol to be worshipped aside from God."Nida'ul Islam, November, 1996, 15th issue. “the scholars on Usama, but I am also well and aware they have not declared him a kafir and therefore is a Muslim, for me in this war which seemingly is between Usama vs. the west, I know where my loyalties lie-this was my point and on that I agreed with the author. “ So what if he’s a Muslim?is his takfir justified? Is he sheltered from misguidance? Need I remind you the hadith about the 72 sects in the fire. IM sure you know why they are all in the fire! There is not difference between Bin Laden and the khawarij during the time of Ali Bin Talib(RA)? Ibn Haanee an-Neesaabooree (Rahimahullaah) said, “I witnessed Aboo ‘Abdullah, meaning Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, on his way to the mosque and a man from the skeptics(innovators) gave him salaam. He did not return salaam to him and the man gave him salaam again. Imaam Ahrnad pushed him away and did not return salaam to him.[/b]â€[Masaa’il Imaam Ahmad of Ibn Haanee an-Neesaabooree, 2/153] As for the “gulf-war ploy†brother I was only highlighting one small point (don't over analyse the whole thing), the scholars can make a mistake, it is for this reason that Rasuallah stated that if they are correct they receive two rewards and if they err they receive one. It’s almost like you think the scholars are infallible, do you even acknowledge that they can be wrong? As a salafi, I’m sure you acknowledge that Abu Hanifa made mistakes with respect to some fiqh issues (which we attribute to many reasons), so why not the scholars of our lifetime? the scholars can make mistakes and they have, and no one is infallible(we both agree), however our differences lies somewhere else, for insistence how does one know when a scholar has erred?, is it because their fatwah contradicts an Ayat or a hadith? Is there a systematically mode of spotting their mistakes? Of course not, as far as the unlearned muslim is concerned! Shaykh Albani said,†we advise our growing youths today, who are on the mathhab of the Qur’aan and the Sunnah, to unite and contemplate matters carefully, and not to declare rulings based on some of the apparent meanings of the evidences. This is because it is not suitable for a Muslim to stop at every seemingly obvious ruling. Otherwise, we would end up living in a confused state of knowledge which has no ending to it.†(Fatwaas of Shaykh al-Albaanee Translated by Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips) And all the scholars can not All agree on an issue that is wrong, not sanctioned by Kitab and Sunnah by way of the Salaf, its impossible, The messenger of Allah(sallahu alayhi wa salam)(May Allah grant me his company) said, (paraphrasing)“my ummah will not agree on an error†in this hadith the “Ummah†is referring to the scholars of the Muslims, since they are our guide! let us use your example; Abu Hanifah made many errors in fiq, , yet his students or those scholars near him did not pin point his errors while he was still alive in any of these issues, the reason being, they were just not qualified , however when his students after the death of the noble Shaykh(May Allah have mercy on him) when to study under imam Malik(ra) they withdrew 1/3 of Abu Hanifa’s fatwas! This was due to the fact that Imam Malik® was a great Scholar who had eminent knowledge, someone with his calibre was able to discern the errors of imam Abu Hanifa through decisive proves, not to mention meticulously elucidating where the Noble Shaykh went wrong ! however what about the muslims who have never studied the deen, who do not know classic Arabic, The tafsir of the Quran and the science of hadith! That fact that they read few ayah and hadith here and there does not give them the license to contend and criticize the scholars and pin point their errors! Who is a lay muslim to say the scholar is wrong, when he do not have 1/1000000000000 of the scholars knowledge nor does he have a glimpse of the Usool, the Furooc and Uloom of islam! Please brother, don’t try and get us into a debate concerning the validity of scholars, I am not questioning that whatsoever, so need to put on the white in shinning armour act . As stated I love them all, I respect them all and most importantly never would I say they stated anything out of malice for Islam or Muslims, rather I justify some points that they have erred on because of their love for peace and to avoid disaster to the followers of the religion of Allah. This comes back to the points Ngonge is making(as far as I understand him at least), Who are we to criticize and discern their errors? who has preceded you in this, where is your evidence?!? Granted Bin Baaz and the other scholars were wrong for asking the kufar(this is my position), but I did not come to this position on my own, the Noble MuHadith Shaykh Albani and others like Hasan Halabi preceded me. In contrast many salafi brothers and scholars said ALbani was wrong, rather bin baaz and Uthaymin and the rest of Mashaykh were correct in their stands(because they were at war with a kafir), so this has become an issue of Ikhtilaf(differences of opinion), seems to me though your convinced that bin baaz was absolutely wrong, this is to say the least astonishing! Bin baaz and Uthaymin are great scholars in Saudiya and they support and aids their rulers in that which is correct, they are known for their Zhuud and Taqwa, they would only support the Government on what Allah and his messenger sanctioned, Hearing and Obey the rulers is a Wajib as long as there is no disobedience to Allah! Bin Baaz would not have allowed the kufar in the land of Tawheed if he knew it was absolutely Haram and if its not in the Muslims’ greater interest, the fact that he was not alone in his position says a lot, and Yes Others scholars disagreed with him, but this does not mean, those who disagree with him had a clear cut prove from the text, to such degree that Bin Baaz was deliberately committing Open Dhulm(wrongdoing)! The issue of The Gulf was a matter of ijtihad, So you and I take position of Albani, my friends and relative take the position of Bin Baaz and Uthaymin’s! You stance on ibn Baz? I disagreed where? For me to say that any scholar has made a mistake on any issue does not necessarily translate to loss of respect or the questioning of his credentials. You can still say that you disagree with someone and still hold them in high regard and love them for the sake of Allah. Learn to differentiate that akhi-it comes in very hand in the mannerisms of disagreement. NO Sister, The Noble Dr Saleh As-saleh agrees with my stands On Osama; that he Is a an Takfiri kharajee , who calls other Muslims disbelievers! This is why I mentioned the nobles doctor's name. Osama actions are not synonyms with the teachings of the Quran and sunnah nor does it correspond with the path of the Salaf. You can orate as much as you want on how Osama is muslim , but this does not quench the fact that his activities are evil, corrupt and utter misguidance. We hate him for what he preaches and what he does and what he calls to! He is misguided and misguides others; this is the position of Bin Baaz, and the rest of the Kibar, thus far I have not come across any scholar who differs with him in this issue (to this day) As for SPUBS, they seem to be a tad confused on that concept. I was also once upon a time an avid reader, until I began to realize that they made me have ill feelings towards my fellow brother based on simple matters. As far as I know, they are located in the west; we are not in a land of scholars where we can concentrate on refutations. Here akhi, people hardly know the kalima, so of what benefit is it to label this person and that person a qutubi or khawaarij (do you know that bad nicknames are xaraam? saying that hebal hebal al-khaariji). It’s one thing to advice your brother on certain mistakes that they make, but a totally different thing to tarnish (mind you so harshly) their name. Like I said, there are bigger issues to tackle. That is my opinion of not just SPUBS, but a few others. I can only speculate on what these “Simple Matters†are; and Im sure you will one day impart your observation, but be That as it may, ill have you know Spubs has invested time and effort instructing the English speaking communities on basics of Islam. Not only do they refute people who deserve to be refuted(via scholars ofcourse), since this is an great branch of islam that no muslim should belittle, they spend enormous time Teaching the people the basic principals of islam. a testament of their hard work are the books they publish and dispense, Such as Usul athalatah, Usool A sunnah, a mountain of knowledge, Fataawaa on Fasting, Zakat and Taraaweeh, and many more, their bookstore contains everything one needs to know about islam(A –Z) http://www.salafibookstore.com/sbs/ A part from their bookstore, they have invest time and money into their various websites, one that is solely devoted to children (http://www.islam4kids.com/) plus their audio website carries many lectures covering all aspects of islam, a landmark of the “basic fundamentals of islam†they teach! “As far as I know, they are located in the west; we are not in a land of scholars where we can concentrate on refutations†This organization is headed by Aboo Khadeejah 'Abdul-Waahid, who has been involved in the da'wah for quite some time and has delivered lectures and classes in England, Canada and the US. He has been recommended by the likes of Shaykh Aboo Anas Hamad al-'Uthmaan and Shaykh Muhammad al-Anjaree and others. Daawood Adeeb Aboo Tasneem(a pioneer of Da’wah Salafiyha in the west) resides in Riyaadh, Saudi Arabia where he is in contact with the 'Ulamaa. He continues to call to ad-Da'watus-Salafiyyah through his lectures and classes, remaining steadfast to the speech of the 'Ulamaa (Scholars) of Ahlus-Sunnah. Aboo Hakeem is a student at the Islaamic University of al-Madeenah. He travels to various countries giving da’wah. He is also close to some of the major Scholars of today, such as Shaykh ’Ubayd al-Jaabiree. Aboo 'Abdullaah Hasan as-Sumaalee, originally from Cardiff, Wales. Hasan has studied for a number of years in Dammaaj, the home of al-’Allaamah Muqbil Ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee (rahimahullaah). Currently, Aboo 'Abdullaah conducts classes and tele-links in the UK and America These brothers and among others give regular lectures on Paltalk, under the room title,†LIVE Salafipublications.com†and Salafitalk.net, they make round trips to different part of the world speaking on many issues not Just (JarC Wa ta’deel) disparaging others! This is their website, Welcome! I am a non-Muslim and wish to understand Islaam... [Enter Here] I am a Christian seeking enlightenment... [Enter Here] I am a Muslim and wish to learn the basics... [Enter Here] I am a regular visitor... [Enter Here] I want to buy Islamic books... [salafiBookstore.Com] I want to read and study the Qur'an... [TheNobleQuran.Com] I want to read and study the Sahih... [sahihalBukhari.Com] I want to read and study Muslim's Sahih... [sahihMuslim.Com] I want to listen to Salafi Audio... [salafiAudio.Com] I want to read about Islam 4 Kids... [islam4Kids.Com] I want to read articles by the Salafee Scholars: [albani|binbaz|binuthaymin|rabee|ubayd|fawzan|muqbil] ^as seen above, they spend lots of times translating the speech of the scholars for the people, bridging the gap between the scholars and the English speaking world! so of what benefit is it to label this person and that person a qutubi or khawaarij (do you know that bad nicknames are xaraam? saying that hebal hebal al-khaariji) The labels go along with the ideology the people are upon, every ideology has fervent callers and adherents and its essential we label them accordingly! However this does not mean we shut the door of advising and inviting to good! For example, What benefit was it for Ibn taymiyah and other to say “im Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jamaacaâ€? Do you believe the Khawarij during the times of Ali(ra) called themselves Khawarij? Wasn’t it the Companions who gave them the title? Where did the label Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jamaca Come from?!? Where these words uttered by the Messenger of Allah? So what benefit was it for scholars of the past to say “ we are from Ahlul Sunnah Wa Jamaaca and this is what we call to; Are we not All Muslims? Do you think the Jahmees called themselves Jahmeyah, Wasn’t it the scholars during the time of Imam Ahmed who gave them this label? Werent the salaf not known to say†do not sit with him he is Murji’,he is from Rafidi, or Mubtad’ ect? Labelling the people according to their ideology or association is not haram!Rather is from the way of the salaf! As seen below Yahyaa bin Sa’eed al-Qattaan (Rahimahullaah) said, "When Sufyaan ath-Thawree came to Basrah he began to look into the affair of ar-Rabee’ bin Subaih and the people’s estimation of him. He asked them, ‘What is his madhhab?’, and they said, ‘His madhhab is but the Sunnah’. He then asked, ‘Who is his companionship?’ and they replied, ‘The people of Qadr’ so he replied, [/b]‘In that case he is a Qadari’." [Al- Ibaanah (2/453)] Shaikh Uthaimeen (Rahimahullaah) was asked, “What is the benefit in the students of knowledge learning about the (deviant) sects o fthe Mu'tazilah, the Jahmiyyah and the Khawaarij, since they do not exist in our time? The Shaikh (Rahimahullaah) responded, “Learning about the deviant sects in our time has benefits, (from) which are:That we know the basis for their positions so that we can refute them if we find them, and in reality they do exist; And the questioner saying that they do not exist now (in our time) is based upon his knowledge only. However, that which is known to us and other than us who read about the affairs of the people is that these sects are in existence and they are active in propogating their message. And because of this, it is imperative we study their opinions/views so that we know their falseness and know the truth (that we are upon) and refute those (of them) who discourse with us. [Kitaabul-'Ilm - Page 128, Question No.25 (courtesy of Fatwa-Online.com)] There is indeed great benefit springing from these labels. if we do not give labels how would Ahlul Sunnah distinguish themselves ?How will one know who to sit with and who to withdraw from? Unless you think everyone who takes the Shahada is upon the Quran and Sunnah understood by the Salaf us Salih and there is no such as thing as 72 sects heading to the fire! The Qutubis and Sururis, ikhwanies are a contemporary misguided groups, explained by our noble Shaykh, the 'Allaamah, the Muhaddith, the Faqeeh, the present Muftee of the district of Jaazaan and the carrier of the Flag of the Sunnah and hadeeth - he sheds some light on these groups who have recently raised the flag of misguidance! Since you love the scholars and their efforts, much like me, I think you might enjoy this! http://www.al-ibaanah.com/articles.php?ArtID=77

As for the Usama comments, it was with respect to the post made by brother Salafi_online concerning the remark of Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Hadi al-Madkhali. Sister what are you talking about?!? did u even take the time to read what Bin baaz actually had to say about OSama? im not sure if you can read Arabic, but in that portion its not just bin baaz who speaks out, its many scholars all upon the same train of thought, This Gulf war ploy has become your scapegoat and is not going to work this time, as i have mention many times Albani and others did not agree with Bin baaz(though it was not just him) on the issue of seeking the assistance of the Kufar, I agreed with you, however they are scholars they have the capability and credentials to do so, however the door is not open to mere Juhala, those who are not scholars let alone student of Ilm, specially when there are no scholars from the Kibar Ulama critizing his fatwah! the fatwah was issued 1420(ah)(1999) now its 1424 after hijra! YEt not a single scholar from the kibar said Bin Baaz erorred as far as i know And Allah knows best! As for Spubs, sister By Allah coming from an avid read, i have never read an article where Spubs attacks anyone without the consent or a Scholar preceding them, This is an unfair attack and a slander of brothers who have tried their utmost to hold fast to the speech and work of the Ulama, these brothers who have expelled many doubts that have enter the salafi manhaj, Sister I have tremendous respect for you so if know of any articles where Spubs or their sisters have attacked an individual or groups without a scholar preceding them, then please show me and i will be the first one to abandon their articles! please do not hind behind empty slogans , I have never attacked an individual or groups, except that the scholars not to mention the KIbar Scholars preceded my contentions! this idea of who is pro Saudi Gov and who is not, all comes back to who u think is a scholar and who is not! What do you mean by Pro Saudi GOv, do you know the implications of these words, does Bin Baaz support his GOverment no matter what it is?!? in other words he's "goverment Scholar" Bin Baaz is far and free from such label(rahimullah), he was a man who was doing his job, a Man who followed the Shariyah upon baseerah this is what our beloved brother Nur had to say about the late Shaykh: (3)Bin Baaz certainly the most Rabbani scholar of our times, the most caring for the Ummah going through the worst fitnah in our times, Bin Bazz will be remenbered as the most balanced overall Alim of our times, a tower of knowledge who learned under Sheikh Ibn Ibrahim, the last Mufti of the Diyaar, who taught him the most pure of the aqeedah of Ahlul Sunnah wal jamaacah, The man had a baseerah far better than the vision of many present day scholars. May Allah accept his work and intentions for the Ummah. Not to mention Dr Saleh Saleh would agree with my positions!

When did the notorious Osama bin Laden become a "Sheik?" America and its allies have used his name as an excuse to conquer and bring shame to entire Muslim societies, and somehow, he's a "sheik?" The Arabs are cowards and naturally their only brave soul must inherent the coveted title of "sheik!" My sentiments exactly! My Allah guide us upon one heart! Warning about the evils of Osama Bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and Qutbism in general, Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Hadi al-Madkhali, a professor at the Islamic University of Madina said: "Those who set off the explosions in the Kingdom admitted with their own mouths, that they were affected by the Jamaa'atut-Takfir (one of the Egyptian Qutbist groups) and that they were from the group of Osama Bin Laden and al-Masari, and they were spreading their literature. Osama Bin Laden - who taught this man? Who educated him about the Shariah (Islamic laws)? He is a businessman, this is his field of specialization… they admitted, as we said, with their own mouths, we saw it and read it in the newspapers, and I have it here with me recorded with their own voices, that they were affected by some of the people of takfir (from the Qutbist groups) of Afghanistan. The majority of our youth that returned from the jihad in Afghanistan to our country were affected, either by the ideology of the Ikhwan (the group al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) in general, or by the revolutionary, takfiri ideology. So they left us believing that we were Muslims, and they returned to us believing that we were disbelievers. So with that, they saw us as being disbelievers, the rulers, and the scholars, not to mention the common folk. They labeled the (Saudi) state apostate, and they rendered the major scholars apostate. They admitted this with their own mouths. They declared the scholars to be disbelievers, and mentioned specifically the two Shaykhs, Shaykh Abdul-Aziz Bin Baz and Shaykh Muhammad Bin al-Uthaymin, may Allah preserve them. They mentioned their connection with al-Masari and Osama Bin Laden. Did they get this from the scholars of Salafism? No! Rather they got it from the people of takfir." Ngonge u might enjoy this piece BIN Baaz labels Bin Laden A Khawarij; a man who everyone should flee from from, (Arabic only) http://www.sahab.org/books/files/aqeeda/ladn.doc ENGLISH Readers! The Advice of Imaam Ibn Baaz to Usaamah Bin Ladin al-Khaarijee The advice given by Imaam Ibn Baaz to the dissenting renegades, Bin Ladin's takfir of the scholars, and his adoption of the path of the Khawaarij. Also includes the advice of Wahb Ibn Munabbih to a Kharijite figurehead of old. it was before 9/11 !!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.spubs.com/sps/bbz/bbz.cfm Akhil-Karim you want to know who the author is, all you have to do is read this and you shall see that his argument springs from the ideology of the Qutubies! under the cloack of Salafiyah! who and what is a Qutubi? BY Shaikh Ahmad bin Yahyaa An-Najmee(kibar Ulama) source: Al-Fataawaa al-Jaliyyah ‘anil-Manaahij Ad-Da’wiyyah (pg. 51-55) compiled by Hasan Ibn Mahmood Ibn Mansoor ad-Daghreeri PRODUCED BY: Al-Ibaanah.com http://www.al-ibaanah.com/articles.php?ArtID=77 reading advanced Qutubi www.sahihalbukhari.com/sps/downloads/pdf/GRV070010.pdf

Baarakallahu feek Ya bashi here is one inshallah hope your enjoy,benefit that is! An Occupied Space Cannot Contain Two Opposites By Imaam Ibnul Qayyim al-Jawziyyah For a space to accept what is being put in it, it has to be emptied of the opposite. The same way this is relevant with individuals and objects, it is also true for beliefs and wills. So, if the heart is occupied with loving and believing in falsehood, then it has no space for loving and accepting the truth. Just like if a tongue is busy uttering what does not have benefit, then its owner will not be able to utter what has benefit for him except if he stops talking about what is useless. Also if the different body parts are busy doing what is not obedience then it is not possible to keep them occupied in doing what is obedience except if he (the owner) frees them of the opposite. In the same way, a heart full of loving other than Allaah, wanting him, longing to meet him, and enjoying his company cannot be occupied with love for Allaah, wanting Him, longing to meet Him except by emptying it (the heart) from attachment to anything other than Him (Allaah). And the tongue cannot move to remember Him nor can the body parts move to His service except if he (the owner) frees them from mentioning and servicing other than Him. So if the heart is full of occupation with creation and sciences that do not have benefit then there is no space for being occupied with Allaah and knowing His Names, Attributes, Laws. And the secret of that is that the Isghaa (listening in concentration) of the heart is like the Isghaa (listening in concentration) of the ears, so if he listens to other than the Hadeeth (meaning speech , words, subject) of Allaah, then there will be no room to listen to or understand the Hadeeth of Allaah. Just like if he is inclined in love towards other than Allaah then he would have no room to incline in love towards Allaah. If the heart utters other than the remembrance of Allaah then it will not have any space to utter His remembrance by using the tongue. And that is why we find in an authentic narration from the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam): "It is better for your mouths to be full of pus until it makes it go bad than to be full of poetry." [1] So he made it clear that a mouth can be full of poetry and therefore it also becomes full of doubts, fictions and unexisting measures. Also the sciences that have no benefit, jokes, comedies, stories and so on. If the heart is full of that, then when the truths of the Qur`aan, and the sciences that can make it experience its full function and happiness, come to him, it will not find any space for itself and no acceptance (from it), so it bypasses it (the heart) and moves to another place. If you give advice to a heart full of its opposite, it will not find a way in and (the heart) will not accept it. It does not enter inside but it only passes by briefly and not from the inside. That is why it was said: "Clean your heart from other than Us , and you will find Us For our Highness is compatible with every clean heart And patience is a chest for the treasure of being associated with Us He who makes the chest compatible wins its treasure." http://www.troid.org/

Capital Z, Watch out for the eagles this year, Donavan is on a mission! the vikings have a better change playing in the CLF! every year they choke.....

OG I must applaud you, your prose has drastically enhanced, its legible and well written! inshallah let it continue ! You have raised an interesting point, Your main theme in these two post is that suicide is Haram unless a dire need necessitates, however this intriguing methodology thoroughly negates the principal suicide bombing was found impermissable on! On analyzing the Palestinian situation one can clearly observe the calamity that has overtaken the Palestinians. In order to shield their land and retain their honor they have resorted to suicide bombing, however as I have explain previously these actions have not produced the desired results, in fact it has exacerbated the lives and conditions of the people. Do you know that our sisters’ bodies are examined by the filty soldiers at very check points; this practice was inscribed after the Palestinians sisters began suicide missions. A strategy that generates more Evil and corruption can not be praised or acceptable. So let me regurgitated what I posted earlier ; when one of the Palestinian blows himself up and kills six or seven people, then in retaliation the jews take sixty or more and not to mention additional land. thus this does not yield benefit, every time they carry out a mission; their people are repressed and further land is confiscated! r Palestinians are not short of weapon, a part from being primitive, they are not short of supplies, however weapons are by no means the only ingredient to achieving complete victory! Allah has equipped the believers with plenty of arms, unfortunately lots of muslims have downplayed their role and importance. here are few alternative, Firstly, Allah said to the believers in the battle of Badr, “You did not kill them, Allah killed them. And you did not throw when you threw, it was Allah who threw in order that He may test the believers a good test from Him. Surely, Allah hears and Allah knows.†Al-Anfaal: 17 In this verse, Allah talks about the Battle of Badr where the Muslims were uplifted by a victory against all odds. Allah reminds His Prophet (sas) and all of the Muslims that this victory was by the power of Allah, not by anyone's strength or numbers. During this battle, the Prophet (sas) went aside and prayed to Allah for His aid and victory in this important battle. When he returned to the battle, he (sas) took a handful of sand and threw it toward the enemy. Allah caused this sand to reach the eyes and noses of the entire disbelieving army. This broke their will and turned the battle against them and they were defeated. So, Allah is telling us that victory is not by any strength which we possess, rather it is from Allah alone. Need I mention the battle of UXUD, Where their numbers or weapons did not avail the believers! In an authentic Hadeeth, it is reported that Khabbab Ibn al-Aratt said: "We said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Why do you not invoke Allah to support us? Why do you not supplicate to Allah for us?' He said: "Among the people who came before you, there was a man who was taken and put into a hole dug for him in the earth, then a saw was put on his head and he was cut into two pieces, and an iron comb was used to tear the flesh from his bones, but this still did not turn him away from his religion." [Reported by al-Bukharee, see Fath al-Baaree, (12/315)] Allah says: "Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty and ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who believed along with him said: 'When (will come) the help of Allah?' Yes! Certainly, the help of Allah is near!" [soorah al-Baqarah (2): 214] Meaning that you will be tested like the nations before you were tested and tried with illness, pain, disasters and hardships so much that they pleaded (to Allah) for victory against the enemies and invoked Him for aid and deliverance from their hardships and trials. So let’s examine these few options (1) Du’ah( by far the pre-eminent weapon a believer can possess) (2) Patience(the ultimate shield) (3) These Guns I constantly see on tv carried by the Palestinians(AK47) (4) These bombs can be fabricated in such away that they can be thrown, or detonate without actually harming oneself(its possible) (5) The Palestinians have an army and a police force/equipment with many types of arms. I know they are no match for the jewish force in terms of numbers and man power that is/ but you and I know both its not numbers that win the war, if we use the little weapons, with Allah’s help there is no stopping us (6) How did the bare footed Arab conquer (Rome,The Turks, and Persia) their weapons compared to their opponents the least to say was Primitive! In the light of the Palestinian resistance, there are Few Ayahs we need to consider (1) Allah does not burden a soul beyond its capacity, in its favour is what it has earned, and against it is what it has appropriated. (286) This ayah is self illuminating, Allah will not test the believers more then they can handle (2) People said to the believers, "Your enemies have gathered a great force against you, so fear them." But that merely increased their faith and they said, "Allah is enough for us and the Best of Guardians." So they returned with blessings and bounty from Allah and no evil touched them. They pursued the pleasure of Allah. Allah's favour is indeed immense. It is Satan that prompts men to fear his followers. But do not fear them-fear Me if you are true believers. Do not lament for those who rush headlong into renouncing their faith. They do not harm Allah in any way. Allah intends to assign no portion to them in the hereafter. They will have a terrible punishment. Those who sell their faith for unbelief do not harm Allah in any way. They will have a painful punishment. (Surah Al 'Imran: 173-177) Conclusively, no distress, difficulty or sorrow affect a believer who seeks Allah's consent and observes His commands. This is demonstrated in the course of events by which Allah puts a believer's determination, patience and submission to the test. These are outwardly troublesome and difficult events; but if met with patience and submission they allow the individual to discover Allah's mercy.Allah does not punish a believer who duly serves Him, neither in this world nor in the hereafter. On the contrary, He rewards him most bountifully both in this world and beyond So to recap, suicide bombing generates nothing save more corruption and destruction. Palestinians have plenty of options which they have been exercising for many years now, As a matter of Fact im acquainted with few Palestinians who make round trips to Palestine, and they are eye witness on the conditions of the people. Their report is based on first hand experience, they say, most of the big cities are not bad and are liveable, but it’s the refugee camps that have been under fatal attacks, however suicide bombing is not their last route, is a feeble argument, ask any Palestinian and they do not even resort to such reasoning! As for your fatwa, my beef is with the one who gave the fatwah, his status as far as im concerned has been discoloured with his constant Baatil Kaalam which seems to never end!Allahu Musta3an My leisure time has official come to an end! So have a nice Ramadan folks and see you all in 6 months!

Ngonge Saxib I tried to demonstrate the reasons why suicide bombing is Haram without resorting to copying and pasting a fatwa, surely you know that OG-Girl does not recognize the sunni scholars, my aim is to avoid something she will easily dismiss, my approach was based on the teaching of the Quran, something her and I had in common, and it clearly indicates self murder is forbidden! Secondly I pointed out why suicide bombing brings no benefit nor bares no fruit in the name of self defence. This was through simple logic saxib! Now if I was addressing a Sunni, then I would have easily copied and pasted a fatawa, that would be the end of my speech, they either take it or leave it! In addition my position concerning Yusef is well known on this site, so no need for me to comment on his kaalam! Lest I irritate sahal ! Here are the fatwah Ngonge, you can listen them all in arabic no translation or misquoting!All the salafi scholars, from all the kibar Ulama, Uthaymmin, Albani, Bin baaz and more... according to them Islam does not permit suicide bombing! www.fatwaonline.com category/worship/jihaad/suicide bombing Ps. none of my post were geared towards you!

Jumutu Walaal Suicide bombing is Haram whether you kill an innocent person or an Armed combatant, either way your taking your own life; this is not acceptable in islam! Because the kufar have exceed all bounds does not mean we should break the sanctions of Allah to get even! "But IN Palastine , "This is not suicide, it is martyrdom in the name of God, as This is not suicide, it is martyrdom in the name of God. Which GOD, Allah?!? Allah said the following "And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allaah is Most Merciful to you. And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allaah", [soorah an-Nisaa, Aayaat 29-30] the palistians or anyone who performs suicide missions, are they not eventually the ones who take their own lives? Death is brought through their own hands!Hence killing themselves! OG girl I thought it as not about religion, your argument was from a political point view, wasn’t it(ofcourse politics is part of islam; there are inseparable)? But now they’re doing for the Sake of GOD, your argument has suddenly changed! At any rate, if it’s based on Religion then Allah does not sanction suicide bombing nor does his messenger(saw) nor do those who follow him in righteousness, I have already explained why suicide bombing is not permissible from the Islamic perspective! So before you say it’s for the sake of Allah, please rebut my first post! OG if u wish u can disregard the above, however you will not find a single dalil(prove) that Suicide of any kind, wheter is for self defend or apart from that is found in the holy scripture or authentic ahadith!

So ALL I wanted was to get your books and explain DA your salafi point of view. Is that crime??? It is upon the one who speaks in this matter, or any other matter, that He should only do so based upon the knowledge and the truth: and that his objective should be sincerity to Allaah, to His Book, to His Messenger and the giving of sincere advice to his Muslim brothers. But if he makes the truth accord with his own whims and desires, then this will corrupt and ruin the hearts, the actions, and the state of affairs. Allaah, the Most High said, "And if the truth were to be in accordance with their desires, then indeed the heavens and the earth - and all that is therein -would be corrupted and ruined." [Al-Mu`minoon (23): 71] In My books(quran and sunnah; understood by the Salaf us salih)its a "no no no" my dear sister, i prefer to pitch a pen/rocks and get Blown into pieces then carry out suicide bombing missions; which not only breeds further repression but its neither sanctioned by Allah Tabaraka Wa Ta3ala! By Allah the palistians and anyone for that matter have not and will not experience the hardships that the messenger of Allah and his companions(S.A.W) endured ! however this does not mean we lay low, its upon the whole muslims ummah to assist and aid the ailing brothers and sisters who have been unjustly oppressed by the offspring of pigs and monkeys(ie Jews)(MAy Allah give them what they deserve)(though i firmly believe everything bad that happends to you its but from your own evil deeds), we must do everything within our ability to relieve our brothers and sisters, yet we must never co-operate upon transgression, Since A person has killed himself he has not benefited Islaam whatsoever. So if he kills himself along with ten, or a hundred, or two hundred other people, then Islaam will not benefit by that, since the people will not accept Islaam, Rather it will probably just make the enemy more determined, and this action will provoke malice and bitterness in his heart to such an extent that he may seek to wreak havoc upon the Muslims. This is what is found from the practice of the Jews with the people of Palestine ­ so when one of the Palestinian blows himself up and kills six or seven people, then in retaliation they take sixty or more. So this does not produce any benefit for the Muslims, and does not benefit those amongst whose ranks explosives are detonated. So what we hold is that those people who perform these suicide (bombings) have wrongfully committed suicide, and that this necessitates entry into Hell-Fire, and Allaah¹s refuge is sought and that this person is not a martyr (shaheed). However if a person has done this based upon misinterpretation, thinking that it is permissible, then we hope that he will be saved from sin, but as for martyrdom being written for him, then no, since he has not taken the path of martyrdom. But whoever performs ijtihaad and errs will receive a single reward thus this does not mean we believe the palistians are going to Hell, Rather we make excuses for them,and we Pray that Allah Tabaaraka Wa ta'al overlooks their bad deeds and showers his mercy upon them! "Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever" [bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)]. In reality, the one who commits suicide, generally does so because of his desperate situation, either as a direct result of an act of Allaah or a human being. So you find him unable to cope with that which has afflicted him, and in actual fact he is like one who is calling for help from the scorching heat of the fire. So he has progressed from that which was tough (bad) to that which is worse. And if he was patient, then Allaah would have assisted him in dealing with the difficulty. what we must understand that the believers were and will face many trials and afflictions, Allah the Sublime said, (which means); " Certainly, We shall test you with fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits; but give glad tidings to the patient - those who, when afflicted with calamity say, "Truly to Allah we belong, and truly to Him shall we return." it is those who will be awarded blessings and mercy from their Lord; and it is those who are the guided ones." [ 2:155-157 ]

Ngonge & others what does Allah and his Messenger stipulate in such Circumstances? Surely we can all fling our opinions here and there and try to arrive at reasonable conclusion, however one can not assume Islam has Derelicted this ascept of Life? Im sure there are few verses and Hadith one can find to sustain their contentions! you must always approach everything from an islamic perspective! NOT the western kafir Absurd ideology founded on whims! if you cant use Allah and his messenger, what good is your opinion?!? :confused:

there's nothin wrong with wearin a macawiis in the house, its just annoyin and ugly when guys walk out of their houses wearin that stuff...i mean u dont go shoppin at the grocer with that on, and u dont walk around ur neighbourhood wearin that tryin to play soccer with the kids outside, and last you do not wear it to pick up ur kids from school!!! ps..when did the prophet wear a macawiis?? Macawis is not exclusive to Somalis, this practice predominately exists within the Malaysians and Yemenis society, however they do not call it “Macawis! The Arabs know it as “Cizarâ€, im not sure what the Malaysian call it! In any case the messenger of Allah(saw) and the companions sported this gear! They would wear it ubiquitously, so Inshallah next time you see brothers in “Macawis “ praise Allah The majestic, since they are emulating and reviving the Sunnah. We should never be please with the ways of the disbelievers! May Allah guide them!

Sensual HEaling, IM sure your mother in Law is muslim, BUt i sincerely advice you to stop this backbitting! i suggest you sit with the young lady and explain to her how you feel! if not i'll do it for you

If you want a lot of copy and paste Aricals I think others will DO the job specially brother Salafi and Rahima...I will leave that job for them for God's sake Sister, Defend your personal belief and judgments that is not founded on proof or certainty, Do not perceptibly incline on retreating through diversions!

guys wearin macawiss I wonder what you would say to The messenger of Allah(Saw)?!?