U're welcome. I always find your words sensible and readable. And thank you.

Right. Right. However, when I talk of spreading the message, I'm not talking about preaching or converting, merely informing, making it a norm to hear of normal Muslims doing normal things through the media. I don't have the ability to preach, only talk of what I know of Islam and Muslims when asked. Mostly, I try and highlight the differences between culture and diin.

I have no secrets when it comes to writing- only one rule: comminicate clearly and concisely. I do dislike typos in what I write. They're up there in the post I made above gesturing rudely. They by-passed my anally-retentive mind. This time. Vocabularly. You have to love her or she won't love you back- she's a give and take kind of girl. Make the effort to use neglected words in your speech and it will soon follow in your writing. Spend a few seconds memorising the spelling of new words. The more you use your brain in this fashion, the more you use your brain in this fashion and it will pay dividends. Voice. We're attracted to these kind of forums because of the variety of voices we hear. If we all had the same voice, this place would drone dully, like that Physics we all had. Some people are better at projecting their voices through the written word; they have a signature sound which sets them apart. They don't need avatars or usernames. When you read their words, you hear their voice. Find your voice and enunciate clearly, dah-ling. Verbosity: Me prefer 'Me-Tarzan-You-Jane' school of writing. Me no like so much words tangled like jungle. Me like swing from word to word easily, rest here, there on full stop, hang from comma, bounce from exclamation mark, know where come from, where go, like sign-post of bracket, dash, paragraph...not get lost then, achieve good rhythm, style, me Jane, me swing, swing better than Tarzan...remember many, many adjectives no need...give sleeping sickness in word jungle...zzzzz Read all you can about the art of writing and then banish what you've gleaned to the back of your mind, there to wither. Make your own rules and then break them.

We should start children reading early and read with them often. Children learn languages easier and quicker than adults. This is the perfect time to instill in them positive cultural attitudes and Islamic beliefs using the words of the different languages we speak. The positive visual images contained within the books will also help reinforce the text. Lets bombard our children with what we want them to see and learn. If anybody works with community organisations etc, please encourage book reading and book clubs. Here are a couple of links. Bilingual Arabic/English books: http://www.noorart.com/bilingual.shtml Bilingual Somali/English books: http://amos.shop.com/amos/cc/main/ccn_search/st/somali/sy/products%2C0-20319-20329-25458/ccsyn/22 This one caught my eye particularly. It's called the 'The Swirling Hijaab'(the Arabic/English version also exists- as do many other combinations): http://amos.catalogcity.com/cc.class/cc?pcd=7585600&ccsyn=22 Here's one for the teens, 'Unload your donkey': http://www.noorart.com/product19.html I haven't done a thorough search yet but if you do find Islamic sites(other than noorart) selling these books, do post them. Eid isn't that far off. Books make great gifts for our children. Start saving! To be a girl again and discover books!

Thanks sis, more so because this is on my mind in a very big way at the moment. I had a Jewish woman bring up the old 'Muslim women are oppressed' spiel this evening. I wonder what it is about people that makes them think they can start a conversation off in such a way? I'm sure it antagonises some and is meant to at times but you never know what another's intentions are. The western media is all some have as a source of information. However, considering this woman was from what should be and is Palestine, I was particularly conscious of her words and mine. An emotional response to her words would not have served any purpose. I wouldn't have made my point well and she wouldn't have heard what I had to say to such things as, 'I read a book where a Muslim woman was on the run from her family...' That these are the book-selling, headline grabbing stories was quite lost on her- out of ignorance or deliberately is only known to her herself and Allah. I suspect one way more than the other. I do what I can. I am faced with it very often. I don't know why I attract these people. Perhaps I seem approachable, perhaps Allah wants to test me...perhaps perhaps.. I am aware that I should never carry on with a conversation that may invite dishonouring Islam just as I am aware that I have a role to play and that I must keep my head and use it in these situations. I feel drained right now. I'm sure I could have done better. I have so many of these conversations you would think I'd get used to them. No. The sense of responsibility never diminishes. I am also aware that as Muslims we don't do as much to spread the message of our faith to those outside of it. Should we be annoyed when what the haters spread about Islam reach us through televisions, newspapers and strangers? I should do more. Thanks again.

Nothing at all. Reign in your imagination! The Secret Sits We dance round in a ring and suppose, But the Secret sits in the middle and knows. Robert Frost

I agree. The poem is a beautiful recognition of poets, their ability and why they must keep writing. Nice to be reminded of it. Here it is for those who haven't read it: The Poet And The Bird Said a people to a poet---' Go out from among us straightway! While we are thinking earthly things, thou singest of divine. There's a little fair brown nightingale, who, sitting in the gateways Makes fitter music to our ears than any song of thine!' The poet went out weeping---the nightingale ceased chanting; 'Now, wherefore, O thou nightingale, is all thy sweetness done?' I cannot sing my earthly things, the heavenly poet wanting, Whose highest harmony includes the lowest under sun.' The poet went out weeping,---and died abroad, bereft there--- The bird flew to his grave and died, amid a thousand wails:--- And, when I last came by the place, I swear the music left there Was only of the poet's song, and not the nightingale's. Elizabeth Barrett Browning

Sigh. Paradise for her, inshallah.

Mutakalim, walaal, there you go again! We commoners have opinions but what ever happened to yours? Perhaps you prefer cowering on the fence and never putting yourself in Ngonge's verbal firing line. Try it. You might like it. It'll certainly keep the both of you occupied in something more 'constructive'. I'm not surprised you're almost in agreement with Ngonge on this one- belittling other people's opinions is something you both do well. What was it you said, Mutakalim about all our words on SOL being recorded for our final judgement? Does that not apply to you too? I have said what I had to say on this issue. This is not really about domestic violence but about the posters. This is how Ngonge wants it. It is far more entertaining to him and so he believes to us. He will keep talking so long as there are listeners. No need to excuse me bro, nothing to keep me posting here.

Originally posted by NGONGE: Finally! A result. Now, sister, without taking offence or treating this as a point scoring exercise. Go back and read your first reply then read your last reply and see the huge difference between the two. The huge difference between the two is that I was doing your job for you. You decided to mention the down-trodden one-timer but made a hash of putting his perspective across. Think of it as a helping hand. Pun intended. I have no interest in jumping up and down for the one-off spark of violence in a relationship. Also, that was not what the topic was dealing with. Only a defeated woman would ask for a reduction in beatings and not a complete stop. I don't care about one-off incidents that couples smooth out. I care about the others. Those that wreck marriages, disrupt childhoods and destroy women. There were no assumptions in my first post. Did I not make it clear that I was referring to the cycle of domestic violence when I spoke of the what goes on. I did say that a woman flinches from then on when an argument occurs. Why wouldn't she? It is to be expected. There will always be that nagging doubt at the back of her mind. Don't kid yourself that because she has forgiven she has forgotten. You’re making a whole lot of sense in your final reply where your first was full of assumptions and following a straight line (one which you’ve constructed). Straight line following my opinion and my knowledge of what persistent domestic violence entails. You on the other hand were all over the place. Why does a discussion leaning towards continued domestic violence cause you such outrage? I only “personalised†the issue once others started it. The old, 'they started it'. My aim was never to argue fruitlessly or look down at anyone with moral indignation. Fooled me! However, once I saw that the discussion would follow the same old lines of “ this is wrong and that’s thatâ€, I had to up the stakes a little. I’m glad to see it’s bearing fruit. Thanks and no offence again. Excuses. U got emotional and now that you don't want to pick holes in my words and claim that they make sense to you, you want to take credit for it? I wasn't doing your job for you for your benefit but for the benefit of impressionable young men out there who would benefit from clarity. I don't want anyone walking away after reading this and thinking there are times when it's justified. I would much rather over-emphasise the damage domestic violence causes and be accused of being one-tracked than indulge my ability to see all possibilities! That was my purpose. What was yours? To save the few marriages that end with one slap as a result of those who only see it from one side and encourage a woman to leave? Do u really think people take other people's marriages that easily? Do u really think women leave that easily? If that were the case, why do battered women stay with their husbands for years and years? What makes u think a woman slapped once will walk away as result of a few people's opinions? She might but this nowhere near as common as the woman enduring it for years. I know which one I'd rather speak for and about. Put your pom poms down. The one-time slapper does not need your intellectual help. PS The examples I gave were meant to sound that way (i.e. absurd). They were and they didn't help make your point. P.S: we are point-scoring. At least own up to it.

Jay-eleven, I don't think anything will stop Il Capo. You are right, though. Most of us enjoy in silence but a poet's words deserve a little snapping of the fingers now and then, don't u think? As for you, have u become more of a reader and less of a writer or what? Soo daa, saaxib.

Ngonge, u talk of ordinary couples and yet u give the example of red-handed adultery and knife brandishing. These are extreme examples and have nothing to do with the kind of events that are far more common- being stuck in a cycle of violence. U talk about saving marriages by being rational and yet neither of these situations is one which would invite a rational decision or much hope of reconciliation. I certainly wouldn't stay with a partner I caught in bed with someone and I sure as hell wouldn't stay with someone who tried to kill me. Why don't u tell us about one-offs? How do a man and woman get over that kind of thing? Forgiveness, right? And moving on for the sake of the family unit. It is down to the receiver of the slap to decide whether what had transpired could have brought on a moment of madness or not. Some of us are capable of sending others over the edge with our words alone. Perhaps it is these people who should think twice about walking away from the monster they helped create. Of course this is a possibility. But not one which will not occur to me as the only possibility if I were to hear of a woman getting hit. The harsh reality is that most women believe it is a one-off when it first occurs. This is why I'd encourage anybody- man or woman- who gets hit to make it very, very clear that they will not accept it again, if they choose to stay. Two one-offs just aren't one-offs anymore. I would not be comfortable staying with a man that hit me. It is not an emotional decision- I am not in the midst of the conflicting emotions of that scenario.I know my mind, what will sit well with me and what won't. That does not mean I expect the same of somebody else. I'm not in the business of ruining other people's marriages and suggesting my fixes for their lives. We women are more mindful of this as it affects us more and we have a prepared course of action for it. Whether we stick to it or not is another matter. Whether I would stick to it or not is something I hope never to find out. You want to depersonalise the subject and question our choices and intellect at the same time. It is you who have become emotional. October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month.

I did not find the idea of a list shocking. I found the use of the word 'secret' surprising. What could be so surprising about having violence at the top of a list of marriage breakers? It IS about subjugation and dominance. Why else would a man need to resort to this kind of behaviour? He does it to get what he wants when he wants, just the way he wants. Alcohol, drugs, stress may go along with violence but they don't cause it. There is an intention to carry out the violence outside of these other factors. Psychological abuse is often entertwined with the physical violence. It about power and control- intimidation, emotional abuse, isolation etc come as part and parcel of an abusive relationship. It is for each woman to decide when enough is enough but it can be a very difficult decision to make. A slap can easily be the beginning of a cycle of violence. In my opinion, any man who feels the need to slap already has a warped internal opinion of the woman, the relationship and his role and may have demonstrated it in other ways- verbal for instance. I asked you about your opinion, Ngonge. It is a personal one, as is mine. I don't remember attacking you so why the gripe? How about u tell us about the other possibilites(a slap stops at a slap) instead of coming only to your defence?

AS, I am a freak and a happy one at that! I'm all for praising food. I'm quite a good cook and if I wasn't told so I wouldn't know so. I do appreciate feedback. I always say, that was delicious, thank you or keep quiet if it wasn't. There are people who like to drone on about the volume of bariis, hilib, caano, maraq and what-not they've consumed. Have u not met those with buffet fetishes, those who love paying a fixed price and distending their stomach? Over-consumption of food can be sinful. Sitting down for food should be a pleasurable, appreciative experience, not a gluttonous feast. We've changed the subject entirely

Mutakalim, I too hate to offend and from memory seem to have thrown a few sarcastic comments your way. My apologies, no malice meant. I like to think at least I did it with some humour. Please don't delete your posts. What is, is. It makes the rest of us(myself included) look even worse. My one gripe Mutakalim is that u come across as though u are talking from a lofty height, even your voice sounds far away, quiet yet damning. Also, you don't actually contribute to the topics you reply to. Your words appear, yes, but always to cut down. It gets repetitive. I for one have groaned and wondered, 'What more is there to Mutakalim?'

Shoobaro, didn't u have enough of that stuff as a child? Yuck but not as yuck, I still maintain, as the khaakh tuf. Some people are not very good at their aim. It always gets my attention. I definitely don't want to be at the receiving end of one those projectile masses. No sir, not me.

Thanks. Prolific guy. U're the only one keepinng this section going. Don't stop.

Ngonge, violence always starts small and it ends big and bad. Yes, a marriage where a man slaps his wife is no marriage at all in my opinion. To be slapped on the face is humiliating and I'm not surprised it's where a man who is violent will begin. Subjugation and dominance, that's what it's about. How does a woman know that it will stop at a slap? She doesn't. And so whether there is ever another slap or a progression of violence or not she will always flinch when there's an argument. What kind of life is that? Some men enjoy this kind of response. They feel they have the woman under control when it is they who need controlling. If you had some sort of secret list of things that are totally unacceptable in a marriage, things that would instantly end a marriage, would a “beating†be top of that list? I honestly can not believe u said this. Wouldn't u want this 'secret' to be on the top of yr daughter's list?

Originally posted by Xoogsade: Btw, Sheherazade, Aghazade, Ramezanzadeh and Iranian/persian names are quite Cute. I am far from cute: blond hair against Rambo-red bandana, dagger tucked into skirt, Doc Marten-ed, and prone to clumsy gesticulation. Can't take me anywhere. I stick out like a sore thumb and leave with one often.

To completely hijack the thread... I recently bought a pastry, sat down to mumble a few words on SOL about a migraine coming on when I realised the pastry I was munching on had gone off. I stopped eating, considered throwing it away when I remembered they'd been one other such pastry on display. I decided to return and let them know their food had passed its fit for consumption date. The lady, when I told her, blinked back at me. That's not possible she said. U can taste it if u like I said and handed her the remains. She blinked faster. Get rid of the other one I said. Someone might get sick and they won't be very happy. Blink. Blink. No attempt to remove the remaining pastry was made. Whatever. I'd done my bit. I walked away, migraine turining into an imagined stomach upset. Hours later... I order noodles with shrimp. I was asking for it, I know. I smell it before it hits the table. Fresh seafood should not smell fish-like. But I'm not a food complainer. I convince myself I'm being paranoid after the bad pastry and take a few sly sniffs. Still unsure. Did I or didn't I smell a smell? I tuck in. Bite, taste, chew, swallow. Tastes fine, woman, eat up. And so I do. A couple of tense minutes later, I fork a shrimp and slip it into my mouth. I will never forget the foul, putrid flavour. Never. That shrimp was out of my mouth faster than u could say, 'Good table etiquette'. Half my arm disappeared in the effort to retrieve it. The waiter was not understanding. When it came time to pay, he wanted me to pay for the dish. Do u think that's fair I asked. His back stiffened and he started foaming at the mouth. The chef said it was fine, he said. Did he now? I won't be coming back here again, I said. That's fine, he said. We weren't going to get anywhere, that much was clear after a minute of back and forth arguing. I dropped it. When I was leaving I said, thank you, that was disgusting. The couple with me giggled nervously. So u see, even when I have bad experiences with food and give feedback, it gets me nowhere! Still I am a freak- I have a food intolerance of a kind. I'd never make a good food critic; my pieces would be about the manner in which the food was consumed and the perceived gluttony I'd observed.

Gets to me EVERY TIME.

I apologise beforehand for the content. What are your pet peeves? The things that irritate you; that make u grate your teeth; get your back up; your fingernails on blackboard, what are they? Here's my number one pet peeve: Walking down the street, minding my own when I hear: Khaaaaaaaaakh Tuf

Xoogsade, I have the same problem with other people's food intake! LOL. Really! Many men overeat and talk so lovingly and obsessively about food in terms of quantity and not quality. It turns my stomach. Baasto piled high, tendrils hanging over the plate's edges dripping suugo. I have to look away. Basar la'aan where food is concerned is one of my pet peeves. U will never catch me saying, 'More please'. Oliver Twist was hungry, the rest of us are gluttons. Alhamdullilah I have never known real hunger.

I don't belong anywhere because I don't want to. Being type-cast is no fun. Ask Mutakalim.

I'm not surprised he couldn't keep up when u moved! Not my cup of tea. One shadow(mine) is enough. I'd have slapped him with an injunction order and told him to get a hobby and a life while he's at it. If u like that sort of ever-present devotion and find another like him, don't move. I can't imagine they're that easy to find.