Rahima, good question. I can not imagine a scenario where an individual who is aware of his/her rights will willingly give them away and say here, 'What need I for it?'. Homosapiens suffer from self-love. I can see a scenario where awareness of a right and a conflicting social pressure/habit co-exist. Homosapiens also love being part of a group. It is difficult being an outsider- when u're born into a culture that denies you some rights whatever they may be and worse these denials are made in the name of Islam, your role is not just defined for you, questioning it can bring on confusion(am I rejecting the faith?), frustration and ultimately submission. It can be overwhelming to go against the social grain. U know, if u can't beat them it is easier to join them. We have to take some collective blame but I would put a heavy emphasis on the leaders and the systems that they create and preside over. Most of these are run by men. Why can't we blame them? Do they not represent us? Take the responsibility of our welfares into their hands? A leader can not bask in the glory of his leadership without accepting reponsibilty for his screw-ups.

Thanks folks. It is what it is. Power trips are not my thing. Congrats to the rest. Virtual party at my PC tomorrow, 9pm GMT.

Just when I post a serious topic I manage to unshackle myself from the PC. Thanks for the replies, keep them coming. Firstly(because it screamed out at me) lets deal with oppression. Animal Farm said: But, I doubt Somali women are oppressed, although domestic abuse is common in our community, not to mention mental abuse, How, Animal Farm is that not a contradictory statement? X said: You also need not to exaggerate and inflate the problems that you are facing. In the society we come from, women are not oppressed. I don't remember exaggerating anything, no mention of figures or stats even. I can lend you my trusty magic carpet. She doesn't say much but she helps me get around and into people's countries. Here, take her and embark on a journey from say TZ through Somalia, Sudan, Egypt. Look out for one thing: FGM, use your analytical skills and reasoning abilities to estimate how many women undergo it in each country. Google if u must some stats on the female populations of each country. Whatever number you come up with, halve it. Then and this is the best part, ask Ayesha(magic carpet) to take u back in time generation by generation. She might put up a fight but say I insisted. What are the numbers like? Do they look exaggerated? Or is the word u are looking for unbelievable? Admittance is the first stage of recovery. One cannot be contradictory and play with words or plead ignorance. A little thought and honesty helps healing begin. Are you claiming ignorance on the subject matter of women's oppression? Or is that more palatable than admitting to it? The problem isn't isolated. Ask Ayesha. She's seen things u've never seen. I don't not know how the choice between profession and home is relevant here. Is a woman that works or one that doesn't less or more responsible for the welfare of other Muslim women? Help me make the connection. Or are you returning to the comfort zone? This post is about leaving that zone behind. 7, I've touched on a few different things, u're free to explore the uncomfortable zone. I want to hear what people think and see. Ngonge, doesn't the 'it can't be changed' conclusion just lead to further idleness in us? Isn't faith hope?

There is a cure for everything. It doesn't only affect sinners.

^ I'm interested in reading the answers to your own questions.. What do you think the obstacles are etc? 7, u can bet on it.

At least your response is consistent. U're still from the same place. Whoever set u up didn't manage to trip u up.

Originally posted by liibaan: quote:Originally posted by sheherazade: he is a coward and will insha Allah be a loser in the hereafter Did that bring you satisfaction? :confused: What kind of satisfaction would I derive from a loser I don't know who has deprived his son of a father?I'm just stating the facts,ma'am. I was referring to his fate in the hereafter. Plenty of men deprive their sons of a father while staying alive and staying away. May be u ought to save your indignation for those whose fate on the planet u can influence positively and leave the dead whose fate who have no say over to the Lord.

I don't want to see a perfect world. Dull, dull, dull. Though I would like to see a more honest one; one that looks at itself and says, 'Ugly SOB aren't I?' When I hear or read for the umpteenth time about all the rights a woman has in Islam I switch off. It's a luxury to have knowledge but to hear it used as a self-lauding mechanism when the reality is different makes me cringe. I already know the theory and I feel the theory knows me. I also know that the theory is meant to be in practice hence, 'A way of life'. Islam, a living breathing entity. Islam isn't entirely practised as it should either by individuals (we are imperfect) or governments (man-made). But when it comes to basic rights that afford humans dignity and fairness and when those rights are taken away or never given, I want perfect honesty. I'm unconcerned mainly about what outsiders think; that doesn't bother me as much as what the insiders are up to: It's the culture. Aha. How many times have you said that? Heard it? It's our catch phrase isn't it? But as culture isn't going away and Islam certainly isn't, doesn't that mean the situation could go on and on and on.. This is also what you hear from speakers, Islamic organisations etc when they are questioned about say the situation in Afghanistan under the Taliban. This has nothing to do with Islam they Arab shrug. Change the record will you? Why so much energy into talking to the media about the ideals when we can't put it into practise or admit it to ourselves? Strange how in so many cultures distances apart women have their private parts scooped out, their rapes turned into zina and their lives taken in a family member's honour. Funny that. None of it to do with Islam (I do it too!) and yet carried out in the name of Islam(so as not to be questioned). So who's preaching this kind of Islam? No one. Really? Who's preaching against it? Everyone. Really? Do the women know this? Err. Wait, let me ask it like this: are they allowed an education so they may read and know what their rights are? Allowed into the mosques so they may hear their Imams speak out against the culture(or not)? Encouraged to think, form an opinion and share it? Really? Ahh, I know who you must mean.... Those F-ist women. Yeah, them, women talking of or for women are all labelled F-ists. It doesn't matter that what some say may be in line with the Prophet's(saw) teachings(we'll ignore that) but how dare they speak up and shame us, betray us? There's a preoccupation with shame; that Somali word 'Ceeb'. How often you hear that as a girl; more often than if you were a a boy I wager you. Boys are naughty; girls bring ceeb. Look what the girl dragged in: a great big chunk of ceeb. Whatever will we do now? What the F does it mean, ceeb? Why is everything unpalatable ceeb especially where women are concerned? Are women unpalatable? And if a woman has such an impact (powerful womanhood); reflects so greatly on a family(what honour), a society(she's the backbone), a faith why isn't she revered? Instead of hidden away, quietened and dehumanised? Patriarchal societies will reflect the strengths and weaknesses of man, the male and man the male likes to compete but not always sportsmanly. So if he can't beat them, he'll beat them? Flash back: I'm having dinner with a married couple. She and I are talking when I mention that I keep reading that many more women are embracing Islam than men. She is nodding in agreement when hubby dearest interrupts with indignation. The subject came up because she herself is a convert. Hubby shakes his head in disagreement and states that it is the convert males who will be carrying out da'wah and not the women and that the fewer men would have a greater impact (on what I don't know) than the women. Extraordinary I thought that the mere mention of a statistic(is it even a fact?) that favoured women(if one can even look upon it as such) should bring about in this man the need to almost pooh-pooh the notion that more women were seemingly making a good decision. I had no idea we were competing in spirituality but may be we are. Are women leaving it to the men to help and spread a message when all along they're in competition with us? Can they relate, put their egos aside long enough? And if they're not in competition, why exactly do our societies subjugate women? Is man the individual who may want a woman granted her rights giving in to society's wishes; taking the path of least resistance? Does he just not have the balls to resist and be seen to resist? Is he as clueless as the women are? And are the women in these societies getting a perverse pleasure out of victimhood, out of martyrdom? Are we as guilty as one another, both losers? Each side sniggering at the others' shortcomings? All on a decaying road to hell? I dropped the subject only to continue it days later with the quivering one's wife. I lost count of the number of people who had turned to Islam as a result of her. Men and women. One man's live-in girlfriend left him after discovering Islam through my dinner hostess. This man was so shocked at his girlfriend's departure(and the end of a relationship several years' worth) that he set about finding out what could have taken his woman away from him(the competition). He found Islam and it found him. They married, had children and lived as best they could. It was obvious why she'd had such an impact. She had a love for Islam and she shared it and debated when necessary. These women converting to Islam are in the West where information is readily available and the cultures encouraging of soul-searching. Are convert women who have a genuine passion for Islam and a deep displeasure of our societies' ills better at getting the message across and telling it like it is? No emotional baggage(in the name of Islam), no ceeb(in the name of Islam), no unchannelled anger(in the name of Islam). Do we leave it to the newbies or do the rest of us women in the West have a say too? I look at some young Muslim girls in the West, talk with them and they're angry!! Responsibility for family, education, work, the smooth running of households are dropped on their shoulders but decision-making, opinion-having are frowned upon. Carry the weight but don't say ouch or how or utter the deadly why. Why is the domain of the Y-chromosomed one. Don't ask what Abdi is doing, Abdi is a man. Nurture, it's nature, Xaliimo. Now shut the F up. Still, those of us in the west do mainly have it better than those elsewhere. But have we women been turned into insular beings whose vision does not go beyond our immediate surrounds and troubles? If we're the empathic beings that we're supposed to be, the good communicators that we're meant to be; why aren't we using what comes best to us for those whom what's worst comes? Does the passion not burn hot enough or are our roles limited to serving family and neglecting the society? Just what kind of Islam is in women?

If u're bored enough to have found this, I'm bored enough to tell you: Top of page 6. Originally posted by Legend of Zu: LoL cambaro LuuL....waaberi kulahaa!!!... The Legend Is ciyaal waaberi from 1 Maajo Baydan also.....Waa Lagu kashifaa..."waa laysku haystaa wixii madaxda kaa dhigay waa laysku haysaa"... Damn..I sound like Chinese Singin Somali (Imagine That)..Lucky U cant Hear it Cheerz

I've started writing a topic for SOL so that all may rant and rave there. It's in my email account and I've been sitting here trying desperately to gain access to it- to no avail. I wanted to finish it and post it tonight but it'll have to wait. It's midnight and tomorrow's going to be one of those days. So see u all there inshallah in the next couple of days. P.S: I don't want to comment on your responses though I am itching to.

Don't look at me. I didn't wake this baby up from its 2 year slumber- this was on page 1 without a new post. So who did? Admin? I didn't know Baashi ranted.

he is a coward and will insha Allah be a loser in the hereafter Did that bring you satisfaction? :confused:

^and you know this cause u don't see any of them there when u're out and about, eh?

^I don't know why I waste my time on him! He's a dirt-bag..when oh when will I get a MAN? Sniff. Something along those lines, eh? What woman wants to admit or pretend Romeo is a dirt-bag? It reflects, u know?

LOL at above.I don't mean to hijack your topic but I personally have ODed on such readings. I have also burped and hiccupped at the many, many 'Women in Islam' topics and how women have rights in Islam. All I hear is quotes, quotes, quotes. What satisfaction is there from parroting? And why when the reality is spoken about(eg. that in many, many countries Muslim women are not being granted their basic rights) do the parrots squawk? Is it any wonder that there are women out there who are outspoken in their crusade against Islam? Those passionate about Islam love defending it, how about putting some of that energy into something practical? Bringing about change requires an admission of error. Are our egos standing in the way of living Islam? And does Islam need defenders who doth protest too much? I should start a separate topic at some point when I can gather my thoughts. No doubt I will be labelled but I don't much care. I'd rather talk about what is here and now in people's lives than an ideal which isn't. do go on and ignore my beginnings-of-a-cold ramblings

Ceebta, I saw her nigis. Do the party-crashers give out blindfolds at these dos? For Safe Partying.

They are getting something from it or they wouldn't be doing it. What that 'something' is will be different for each one. Actually why not ask them? What's in it for you moderator, old and new?

oh, in that case, party on.

God help you all. Having said that there is precious little going on... Now I have a craving for toast and butter. Cheers A.

^it'll happen. The fuss over the cricket win had me cringing. Rahima, was the initiation ceremony painful? Congrats..

It's all in the name.

Ilaaliye, not surprised this is your cup of tea.

Words fail me.

I wish there were more Somali fathers like yours. Nice story. I need all the inspiration I can get at the mo.

if there's no one around(nobody alive anyway) to hear the bell you'd soon be dead, no?