Meiji has taken the "my words are right, your evidence, no matter how rich it is, is automatically false" approach Meiji, if we had to rely on your unreferenced words, than you might have a point but the world the doesn't work that way. I mean, you can hole up the hatred you have for him which is grounded on clannism but one cannot deny his achievements. As Jonathan Stevenson commented on the achievements of the previous Somali government: When Siad Barre took over, Somalia's population was three-quarters nomadic and largely illiterate. Nationalization of agricultural industries focused and coordinated production, crowded out sleazy and inefficient middlemen, and nurtured foreign trade. Through largely inspirational government self-help programs Somalis built an operating health and education infrastructure from the ground up and inched Somalia in to the twentieth century. In 1973, Siad instituted Somalia’s first written language (a hybrid of indigenous argots and Arabic) and promptly brought literacy in Somalia up to a level that was in fact exemplary for the Third World. By 1975, with his program of “scientific socialism”, he had centralized the budget, nationalized land, and imposed wage and price controls. He conscientiously tried to ban khat, recognizing that it rotted the core of Somalia’s work force by creating young addicts who spent the morning hours scoring the amphetamine weed and the afternoon hours chewing it. The ban didn’t work—but Siad tried. Here are videos/articles about the late president and his achievements: Articles Videos

Kashafa, since you seem to be fond of Saciid Afisoone, why not listen to his commentary on the Maxamed Siyaad Speech 1969 http://www.youtube.c om/watch?v=GdU5xcmer 3c

Fabregas, it would have been better for you to simply say Allah knows best instead of indulging in hearsays and rumours. Maxamed Siyaad (May Allah have Mercy on him) never denied Quranic ayaah, the burden of proof is on you. And no, "I heard it from so-and-so" will not suffice. Secondly, Marxism by lip was to win substantial aid from the Soviet Union to build the country. Somali Socialism and Russian Somalism were not one and the same. The Somali one was mostly based on Socalist principles that did not contradict the Islamic ones, hence the conjured-term "Islamic Socialism" He precisely said in an interview given in the early 70's: "For us, socalism is simply defined: it is a system in which the state takes primary responsibility for the poltical, social, and economic development of the nation." There is a reason why the Soviet Union switched the ties from Somalia to Ethiopia.

Dabshid, I wonder what our dear moderator would comment in terms of the boost in the education sector 1. In 1969 55,021 students were enrolled in all schools located in the country. In 1975, the number jumped to 240,550, which is an increase of 437% 2. In 4 years between the pre-revolution and post-revolution, there was an increase of 128% in elementary school enrolment which is equal to an annual growth rate of 32.1%. 3. Intermediate school enrolments increased 51% (21.8% annual growth rate). Secondary education enrolments rose overall by 63.8% (16% annual growth rate). 4. Before the Revolution, there were 6,412 secondary students of which 737 were girls. After 4-years of the Revolution, there were 10,500 students of which 1,773 were girls, considering girls; their enrolment increased 140.6% over the 4-year period. 5. Before the Revolution, there were 3 technical and 2 vocational schools in Somalia. After the Revolution (before 1978), there were 16 of them: 4 technical schools, 2 polytechnics, 3 nursing, 2 clerical, and 1 each for maritime, agriculture, animal husbandry, range management, and telecommunication technicians. 6. Before the Revolution (in 1969), there were 1,873 Somali teachers. Three years after the Revolution ( 1972-3) the number jumped to 4,486 teachers which was a rapid increase of 440% in teacher training. 7. Before the Revolution, there was not a single university in Somalia. After the Revolution, in 1972, a Somalia National University was established with five initial faculties (gradually expanded in 1974) in education, law, economics, agriculture, and the sciences were in operation. In 1974, faculties of medicine, veterinary, sciences, natural sciences, maritime sciences, languages and literate and fine arts were established. 8. Before the Revolution, intellectuals and academics still used the English or Italian terminological terms. After the Revolution, these terms were Somalized. 9. Before the Revolution, all textbooks and school books were written by foreign authors and printed in foreign countries. After the Revolution, Somalis had their own school and textbooks, written by Somalis and printed in Somalia. Between 1973 and 1976, the Ministry of Education published over 6 million text-books in Somali. 10. In 1975 alone, 1,180 class-rooms were built for primary education

Miskiin, you would think a moderator nevertheless would at least demonstrate some sort civility when conveying his messages. Tell me, Ya Miskiin, what are your Islamic credentials if you feel agitated about me referencing a single ayaah. It's quite unwise to presume someone's Islamic background, 'cause let me make it clear Ya Miskiin, surely and Islamically, I am not in the wrong here. I mean, it is quite simple to take the words of a deluded Evangelist about a deceased Muslim, but yet hard to conceive of his past accomplishments and practices. Good thing that we judge Muslims based on their outwardly actions, otherwise, every nut clannist with a grudge use it as an ammo in a spree of defamation. Going back to the points I have listed earlier. Miskiin, going by your previous posts, which are myriad of anti-Siyaad sentiments, I wouldn't certainly struck me as a surprise if you even denied his achievements altogether. I mean, hatred based on clannism can only reach that level. The Isbahaysiga Mosque was built with the assistance of Saudi Aid, is it such a principal factor that one has to negate who actually built regardless of where the aid money originated. The Isbahaysiga Mosque was built in 1974 by the Somali Government at that time. Aid was the initial boost up to get things going since there were so many sectors the previous government had to focus on. Your favourite news outlet you same to be in favour of quoting all the time mentions: Masjidkaan ayaa la dhisay sanadkii 1974 tii iyo intii u dhxeysa 1987, iyadoo maalgelinta masjidkaasi ay bixisay dowladda Sacuudi Carabiya. http://www.ssunion.n et/node/1090 Going back to my second point, Miskiin. One has to be in a complete denial to distinguish the influx of pre-1969 and post-1969. All it takes is a simple look at the influx of mosques being constructed from 1960 to 1969 (4 small ones) and from 1969 to 1975 (more than 150). Are you also going to deny the huge influx of students entering education from 1969 - 1975 in comparance to 1960-1969? You have conveniently failed to comment on the weekly Tafsir program initiated post-1969. Nevertheless the essence of the whole post and the previous one is to indicate the level that we stooped ourselves in to take the words of an Evangelist over a Muslim.

Clannism has blinded us to such a great extend that we have to take the words of a deluded evangelicalist, who in his own words 'believes' that the late Somali president was a closet Christian based on some 'archival' letters writing by a Christian organization? Good thing that some of us still adhere to certain Islamic principles when discerning the truth. For those, who without discernment, accepted this fable, I say to you as Allah (Exalted is He) said in His Qur'an, "Bring your proof, if ye are truthful" (Al-Baqaraj:111) Prior to 1969, Muqdisho had 4 miniature mosques. In 1975, Maxamed Siyaad built more than 150 medium-sized mosques including the largest mosque, which still stands to this day, the Isbahaysiga mosque. Prior to 1969, not a single Islamic lectures were broadcasted on the radio. In 1971, there was a weekly Qur'anic tafsir session on Radio Muqdisho. As for the executed scholars, a committee [guddi] was established and they subsequently ordered the execution of the scholars. The Family Law had a small issue that was not in par with the Islamic teachings, instead of the scholars advising the government (according to the methodology of advising the rulers), they staged an uprising. Bear mind that there was already an rule in effect that states that anyone who stages a demonstration without the knowledge of the government would face execution, plain as that. The committee ordered their execution, Maxamed Siyaad wanted to forgive them but did not to cause a rift between the institutions. I still possess the audio interview, delivered in 1975, that elucidates this issue in great detail. Salamu Calaykum

There you go, Somalinews has officially joined the ranks of dayniile and co. The report of him being imprisoned is nothing more than a sheer fabrication. Waagacusub.com: "Waxba kama jiraan in la i xiray,waxaa warkaas faafiyay shayaadiinta Shabaab,anigu waxaan joogaa Dooloow,waxaan ahay Xildhibaan ka tirsan DFKMG ,waxaana qorsheeynayaa inaan Kismayo ku laabto"ayuu yiri Korneyl Barre Hiiraale oo la hadlay Warbaahinta Waagacusub." http://waagacusub.com/news/Barre%20hiiraale.htm

If Maxamed Siyaad wanted to unleash chaos and mayhem on the Somali population and the nation he built, he wouldn't have provided the proposal for a ceasfire and a resignation when the USC rebels approached the city with nothing but onslaught as their intention. If Maxamed Siyaad wanted to destroy the Somali population, he wouldn't have devised plans and achieved goals that uplifted the neocolonalist tribal 60's to a Modern unified State of Somalia where minorities had rights, to putting Somalia on the map. If his main aim was to bring slaughter, he would have defended the capital city by all means necessary instead of leaving the city for the sake of the Somali residents who resided there. You have here the pro-Yuusuf supporters attempting to paint a positive light on the first clan-based group SSDF who were responsible for the first Ethiopian invasion in Somalia and the deaths of hundreds to thousands Somali citizens. Here is a news report published on the 31th of December, 1991 by Reader's Digest News where they clearly state that he asked for numerous ceasefires so that the people wouldn't suffer. Would you think someone "who was bloodthirsty and vengeful" would request ceasefires and options to resign? If these power-hungry rebels had the people at heart, they would have accepted his proposals instead of unleashing a full-fledged holocaust on the Somali population.

The fault lies with me for trying to level and reason with you.

Duke, either you do not have a grasp of the Somali language or you quote news reports that carry certain keywords that consildate with your views. You claim that they have invaded the city while Dayniile reports that the two clans live there. Dayniile also reports that no such looting took place. If you are going to quote dalkanews, then I want you to quote the rest of their articles concerning TFG. You either accept all their reports as trustworthy or you reject it. You cannot pick-and-choose and quote certain reports to validate your bigoted POV. The main question and argument is, what makes you REJECT your usual news-sources such as Hiiraan Online, Somaliweyn, etc and look for Pro-ICU sources to make a point?

Duke, please -- do not insult our intelligence. Your beloved AllPuntland in addition to the dozen Puntland sources reports that they have captured the city. What makes you look for a Pro-ICU website, particulary one which you have sentenced as unreliable for its Pro-ICU stance, to prove a point while youe usual "reliable" sources say otherwise?

Duke, your hypocrisy and double-standards have no limit, do they? At one point, you cry and sharply label the website Onkod as a pro-ICU propaganda piece full of fabrications and when it conveniently suits you, it suddenly becomes an authentic impartial news source. Hiiraan.com reports: Axad, August 05, 2007(HOL): Shan Ruux ayaa geeriyootay, labo ruux oo kalena dhaawac ayaa soo gaaray kadib markii uu maanta dagaal ku dhexmaray Degmada Jilib ee Gobolka Jubbada Dhexe Ciidamo ka tirsan Dowladda Federaalka iyo maleeshiyooyin ku sugnaa Degmadaas. Dagaalkaas ayaa wuxuu qarxay kadib markii ciidamo ka tegay Magaalada Kismaayo ay tageen Degmada Jilib, halkaasi oo ay horay u sii joogeen kooxo maleeshiyooyin ah oo ay is-qoomeen ciidamada ka tegay Magaalada Kismaayo. Dagaalka labada dhinac dhexmaray kadib ayaa ugu dambeyntii waxay magaalada Jilib gacanta u gashay Ciidamadii ka tegay magaalada Kismaayo oo la sheegay in uu hoggaaminayay Sarkaal lagu magacaabo Col. Cabdul Xiirey. Col. Cabdul Xiirey oo ka hadlay sababta keentay in ay dagaal ka ridaan Degmada Jilib, isla markaana ay gacan ku heynteeda la wareegaan ayaa wuxuu sheegay in Wasaaradda Gaashaandhigga Dowladda Federaalka ay ku amartay Guutadooda oo ah Guutada 3aad ay xarun ka sameysato Degmada Jilib, halka Guutada koowaad ee Ciidamada Dowladdana uu sheegay in loo diray Xerada Deynuunaay ee Gobolka Bay. Col. Cabdul Xiirey waxaa uu sheegay in maleeshiyooyinka ay ka ceyrsadeen Degmada Jilib ay ahaayeen kuwo falal burcadnimo ah ka geysanayay deegaano hoos-taga Gobolka Jubbada Dhexe, kuwaasi oo uu wax ka qaban waayay Maamulka halkaas ka jira. Si kastaba arrintu ha ahaatee, Xiisad ka dhalata Dagaalkaas ayaa la sheegayaa in ay weli ka taagan tahay Degmada Jilib, inkastoo Odayaal deegaanka ah ay ku howlan yihiin sidii ay u baajin lahaayeen dagaal kale oo labada dhinac dhexmara.. Salaad Iidow Xasan (Xiis), Hiiraan Online Let us see what OCHA (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs) writes on the 3rd of August concerning road-blocks in Jilib. Roadblocks on various roads in South/Central have continued to impede access. A WFP convoy from Kismayo to Buale was held at a road block during the week in Jilib for three days by local militia, demanding passage fees. The trucks were eventually released after successful negotiations between the transporter and the militia. Restricted access along the transport routes in Middle and Lower Juba continue to cause delays in movement of humanitarian cargo. http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/EGUA-75QLDY?OpenDocument

Baardheere: Col. Barre Hiiraale oo ku hubeysan gaadiidka dagaalka oo xalay gaaray Baar Dheere. 15. Maj 2007 Baardheere(AllPuntland)- Col. Barre Aadan Shire (Hiiraale) oo ah xildhibaan ka tirsan dowladda KMG ah ayaa xalay gaaray magaalada Baardheere isaga iyo ciidamo aad u fara badan oo ku hubeysan gaadiidka dagaalka. Barre Hiiraale oo xilkii wasiirka gaashaandhiga horay u hayey ayaa laga qaaday kadib markii lagu eedeeyay xil gudasho la'aan, lamana oga socdaalka deg dega ah ee xiligan ugu ambabaxay magaalada Baardheere iyadoo wararku qaar ay sheegayaan in uu u sii gudbi doono magaalada Kismaayo oo taageerayaashiisa ay la wareegeen gacan ku heynta degmadaasi. Xildhibaan Barre Hiiraale oo tan iyo markii maxkamaddihii Islaamiga ay ka saareen gobolada Jubbooyinka ku sugnaa magaalada Baydhabo ayaa haatan ku soo baraarugay inuu booqdo halkii uu markii hore ka talin jiray. Cali Muxiyaddiin Cali AllPuntland, Muqdisho http://www.allpuntland.com/article/anmviewer.asp?a=2960&z=1

Col. Barre Hiiraale oo wata gawaari dagaal oo gaaray deg. Baardheere Baardheere 15, May.07 ( Sh.M.Network) Wasiirkii G/dhigga ee xilka laga qaaday Col. Barre Hiiraale oo wata gaadiid dagaal oo fara badan ayaa gaaray degmada Baardheere ee gobolka Gedo, xilli khilaaf xoogan uu ka taagan yahay gacan ku heynta magaalada Kismaayo. Xildhibaan Barre Hiiraale oo ay wehliyaan kolonyo gaadiidka dagaalka ah ayaa xalay abaarihii fiidnimo gaaray magaalada Baardheere ee gobolka Gedo, xilli dhowr maalin ka hor wareegto ka soo baxday xafiiska ra'isulwasaaraha lagaga qaaday xilkii wasiirka G/dhigga. Imaanshaha Col. Barre Hiiraale ee degmada Baardheere oo aan horey loo sii shaacin ayaa waxaa soo baxaya warar kala duwan oo ku aadan ka soo bixitaankiisa Baydhabo, iyadoo wararka qaar ay tilmaamayaan in ay la xiriirto sida uu marnaba ugu qanacsaneyn qaabka madaxda dowladda ay u maareeyeen xaaladda dalka ka taagan iyo isbadalkii dhowaan xilka lagaga qaaday, waxaana warar kale ay tilmaamayaan in uu u yimid degmada Baardheere sidii uu kulamo iyo wadatashiyo ula yeelan lahaa odayaasha iyo waxgaradka. Lama oga Col. Barre Hiiraale in uu u sii gudbi doono magaalada Kismaayo iyo in uu sii joogi doono degmada Baardheere, laakiin xiriir aanu la sameynayay Colonelka manoo suurto galin in aynu helno. Socdaalka Col. Barre Hiiraale ee degmada Baardheere ayaa ku soo beegmaya xilli ciidamo isaga ku heyb ah ay gacanta ku hayaan magaalada Kismaayo, ka dib markii ay ka saareen magaaladaasi ciidamo ka soo jeeda Puntland. http://www.shabelle.net/2007/May/n11592.htm

N/AA, the sources are from a database of e-books. Mj. bada Cas, this clearly demonstrates that you are one of these youngsters who from young on were imparted with propagandic thoughts like "M S Barre bad!", "SNM Mujahidun!" without actually questioning these statements. I am not sugarcoating anything; it is part of history and is researchable, just like how the atrocities of the SNM are widely documented. The reason that we are 'countryless' is not because of M S Barre, rather is it because of the rebel movements who duped the masses under the pretext of 'liberation' whilst they were hungry for power. To clarify this, let us look at the USC. The USC, upon capturing and "liberating" Xamar, started a cleansing program killing over tens of thousands Somalis in the first few weeks and over 500,000 Somalis in the long run. Caydiid wouldn't accept the idea that someone else beside him rule Somalia and started targetting his enemies who were once allied with him and killing over tens of thousands of Somalis. SNM also demonstrated this type of behaviour. Tuur who was the last chairman of the SNM group denounced the creation of 'Somaliland' after he lost the power struggle to Cigaal and fled to Xamar to become Caydiid's vice-president. Asteris Huliaras in The Viability of Somaliland: Internal Constraints and Regional Geopolitics writes: Mohammed Egal’s election was not without controversy. His first two years in office as President of Somaliland converted some of his adversaries into bitter rivals. In the second half of 1994, members of a clan militia clashed with the government and its ***** supporters. By the end of the year, the conflict had pushed large numbers of the capital’s population to take refuge along the Ethiopian border. Nevertheless, what looked like an endless and senseless feud between rival clans was to a certain extent a more classical conflict of power. Politicians who were defeated in the 1993 Borama election distributed money among clan militias to foment opposition to the new president and helped to promote fighting in the towns of Burao and Hargeisa (Compagnon 1998:85). http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/power.jpg It all comes down to thirst of power that has cost the lives of tens of thousands of Somalis. It was first initiated by Cabdulaahi Yusuf who created the first clan-based militia and attempted the first clan-based coup and the legacy continues with the warlords that roam around the streets of Xamar.

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: ^^You see, the reason I did not response to your diatribe was because your tone and writing sounded quite familiar. I can easily distinguish between rational people from the irrational ones. And with that you may want consider using your talent to advance other causes adeer and forgo from the urge of defending a dictator who passed away years ago and whose crimes and cruelties are recorded both in print and memory. xiinfaniin, whilst debates that ommit references is your thing, it is fortunately is not mine. So I advise you to stop employing evasive maneuvers and learn the rules of debating where you provide complete source citations for your allegations. To regard a well-reference post as a diatribe is simply ludicrous and yet has the audacity to to accuse me of irrationality.

I am Suleyman, yes.

Paragon, Somalis who witnessed the sixties and seventies would enlighten you about the sense of unity achieved in the seventies and the lack thereof in the sixties. In the sixties, there was heavy corruption and a high level of tribalism based affairs and the present government of that time degenerated into anarchy. There were over thousand clan-based candidates and over seventy parties for fewer than 130 seats. The Somali population was simply tired of this power struggle, disunity and pseudo-democracy. Somalia, during that period, received the highest foreign aid per capita in comparison to other African states but there was practically little development projects to no visible improvement in the standard of living. The aid money went straight in to the pockets of the politicians. Most of the custom duties were pocketed by civil servants; hospitals were selling their medicines to local pharmacies; and government-owned cars were being used as taxis. There was no minimum basis for national cooperation and high decree of moral decay was prevalent. This is why M S Barre started a campaign exposing the thievery and mismanagement of the political leaders in the early months after the coup. After Maxamed Siyaad Barre (RH) staged the revolution with senior army officers, it was welcomed by every Somali. Within three years, M S Barre achieved goals that took the previous government forever to decide on. He put in effect the choice of a script for the national language. Civil servants of up to 30,000 students were sent to the baaddiye to educate the nomads in literacy. Industry, banks and businesses were nationalised. Cooperative farms were promoted. Rehabilitation programs were created for drought victims. At least 30,000 students and teachers took part in the rescue-operation with the backing of $20 million. The SN Army was increased from 10,000 to 40,000. He banned foreigners from taking in posts that could be filled by Somalis. Rent was reduced, prices were frozen. The seventies was marked as the best era of Somalia. Kids grew up with no single regard to their clan. Somalis displayed the "Somalia against the World" and "Somalia on the top of the World" attitudes. This is manifested in the words of Abdi Sheikh Abdi who said: It can hardly be denied that Somalia under its present leadership has achieved some impressive results. This is most apparent to someone, like myself, who had been out of the country for many years. A good number of ambitious projects have been started, and in part completed, under the military Government, including the rehabilitation and resettling of nomads who had lost their flocks during the 1974-5 Deba-Dhere drought. These destitute former herdsmen have been settled in farming and fishing co-operatives between the two perennial rivers of south-western Somalia. Other projects include the north-south tarmac highway, built with Chinese technical help, which connects the two main regions of the Somali Republic and thus has both economic and political roles to play. Other projects undertaken by the Barre regime, though less successful, have instilled a co-operative spirit and a work-ethic that had been woefully lacking in the Somalia of the 1960s. The germ of this new spirit is most discernable in the numerous revolutionary youth centres that have been established in recent years. I recall having been very moved by one of the songs sun by orphan girls who had known no other home but such a centre, and no other parent but the state: It is a time of pleasant suprises When one journeys from a place of drought and desolation to one of plenty and prosperity There was a time When I did not know my lineage Now I have a father in [President] Siad. A mother in the October Revolution The flag is my uncle, The land my grandfather, The soil my grandmother... http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/AbdiSheikhAbdi.jpg M S Barre changed the "Whom do you know?" question in to the "What do you know?" which aimed at strengthening the sense of unity and non-tribal identification. I believe things started going downhill after Ina Yusuf staged a clan-based coup and created the first clan-based militia that made M S Barre suspicious (begin 80's) and started confining to his own group. Nevertheless, M S Barre has achieved initially what no Somali has achieved before and that is uniting Somalis for the first time and that is an undeniable fact. Sources: http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/WilliamZartman.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/PeterWoodward.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/MilitaryRegimes-1.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/MilitaryRegimes.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/KirsternHolstPetersenNuruddinFarahc.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin5.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin4.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin3.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin2.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/DavidLaitin1.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/Apostolopoulos.jpg http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/Cumar_2007/AbdiSheikhAbdi.jpg

Originally posted by xiinfaniin: Somaliland’s experience, as painful as it was, was NOT unique. This is what happened. A dictator called Barre wanted to rule the nation an iron fist and when the people started to resist his rule, he used every tool in his disposal to put them down. In Mudug it manifested in the form of destroying water wells and burning villages. In Waqooyi, however, since the conflict seeped in the urban centers, Barre’s response came in the form of destroying cities by different means hence causing large exodus of civilians. He bombed indiscriminately and killed and maimed many innocents. Cruel and irrational, he was. His deeds were savage and criminal in nature. But to take that grievance, and turn it into a tool to divide and dismember the nation is equally irrational. Today the world is a small village, and we don’t live in isolation. You know, I reckon, more gruesome experiences and ethnic strife that caused more deaths and destructions that existed around the world, and got finally solved short of disbanding nations involved and without compromising people’s unity. I know I am rambling here but blaming the acts of a dictator on the entire nation is really hard to understand, and quite pregnant... lol@Me, ka haray hadaba..carry on! xiinfaniin, are you merely repeating the same unsubstantiated, biased, simplistic soundbytes that was uttered by the rebel movements or is it an allegation that actually has a foundation. The Mudug allegations are unsubstantiated and were simplypropagandic allegations to discredit his regime and incite an uprising. Furthermore, what happened in the Waqooyiga was never his doings. When M S Barre got in a car accident in late '86 I believe, his health deteriorate critically in '88 where he was forced to sleep most of the time and only dedicate an hour at most to his minor presidential duties and public appearances. The man in charge during the waqooyi conflict was the vice-President Maxamed Cali Samatar who admitted on a bbc interview that he ordered the Hargeisa bomb attack and the shellings due SNM's cowardice strategy involving hiding amongst civilians. SNM equally was responsible for the death of thousands of innocent Somalis and the exodus of tens of thousands of Somalis who did not belong to their clan. Evidence: http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8563/atrocitieska1.jpg http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8026/atrocities2cj6.jpg My abtigey was a prominent SNM commander used to tell me his first-hand account during the conflict. He also said that SNM's grudge wasn't against the late President (mind you that he considers M S Barre the greatest president that Somalia ever had) but rather those who mis-used his regime to settle a grudge (i.e Morgan et la) M S Barre was single-handly responsible for Somali's Golden Age in the 70's where he practically put it on the map at a time when the world regarded as one of the most corrupted country in Africa.

Khalaf, spot on walaal. We all know that Islamically, it is forbidden but unfortunately some individuals have no regard for the Islamic methodology when it comes to conducting war. Taako Man, what you're presenting is that the retaliatory acts commited by these groups can be accepted since they were victims of previous atrocties, a simple eye for an eye? So, you conclude that thousands of innocenents had to be sacrified in order to feed their thirst of revenge. Besides, the only rebel group that really achieved something was the SNM whilst others were wandering around oppressing people and creating a power/political vacuum. Taako man, I find your reasoning very unsettling if you argue that the murder of these thousands Somalis were justified counter-acts by the rebels and it will be more worrysome if you ever find somone that will agree with your view of point you apart from some deranged emotionless lunatic. In fact, if you will not mind, could you provide a list of points that argue in favour of the massacres because I really would like to grasp at how you arrived at such premise.

Originally posted by Jacaylbaro: quote: We are also aware of the atrocities committed by these groups, some public knowledge whilst others are white-washed (e.g. the SNM atrocities). The SNM for instance concealed and hid themselves amongst civilians whilst also retaliating against any member that did not belong to their clan or supported the previous regime and thus forcing the non-SNM civilians to abandon their strongholds. Here we go ,,,,, you are extremely WRONG bro ,,, why someone can't hide his feelings when he wants to talk about general issues ??? SNM did not hide among civilians and never retaliated against any clan who did not belong to theirs ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, how can someone fabricate such issue ,, i just can't believe it ,,,,,,,,,,,, I wanted to respond to the topic but i hate this fabricated information and all those hate feelings of yours ,,,,,,, Jacaylbaro, hate has nothing to do with this topic as I am not singling out any group. Your objection did not suprise me as I consider you a staunch SNM-supporter who has a rather saintly view regarding them. Atrocities were commited by every single group and not only by the non-SNM groups. Here are the accounts of their massacres. Somali Refugees in the Horn of Africa: http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/3949/atrocitiesgl9.jpg Misappropriation of relief aid: http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5213/atrocities2dx3.jpg

I had a recent discussion with a fellow Somali who basically argued in favour of the horrendous atrocities committed by the past Somali rebel groups in order to achieve their aim or objective. His argument and line of reasoning is that since the past regime engaged in atrocities; they (the rebel groups SNM, SSDF, USC et al) had the right to employ the same tactics, leading him to overlook their blame in the destruction of Somalia and rest it solely on the previous regime. We all know that every political group (i.e. previous regime and the rebel groups) played a huge part in the destruction of the 300,000 non-combatants who were raped, murdered or starved to death. We are also aware of the atrocities committed by these groups, some public knowledge whilst others are white-washed (e.g. the SNM atrocities). The SNM for instance concealed and hid themselves amongst civilians whilst also retaliating against any member that did not belong to their clan or supported the previous regime and thus forcing the non-SNM civilians to abandon their strongholds. Now, can one concur that we condone these means since it achieved their objective or not. If so, then why. I firmly believe that no matter what the means where, an atrocity is an atrocity and should be condemned.

I first would like to apologise in advance if I seem to be converting the thread into a theological discussion as this is the not the right place to discuss it. The moderator can move it to the right section if he/she pleases. Khalaf, walaalow, why do you require incidents and examples whilst an authentic report of the Prophet has reached you stating the injunction. In fact, those reports were sufficient to establish the command and you do not inquire about additional practical examples because they're irrelevant just like if a Quranic injunction has been established, one does not request ahadith to support it. However, to answer your question, yes, anyone who neglected prayers during the Khulafa ar-Rashidun was punished, however, capture was minimum since these people belonged the best of generations and had there been wide-scale disregard for establishing prayer, it would have been recorded. In addition, Abu Bakr (RA) considered those who didn’t pay zakah as apostates and fought against them, what about Muslims who didn't establish the first and most important pillar of Islam. Moreover, the view that one apostates after neglecting the prayer is reported from the foremost of the Sahabah, such as Cumar who is reported to have said: "One who neglects prayers has nothing that proves him being a Muslim" And it is mentioned in the treatise that I have cited of the Sheikh where he quotes Imam Ibn Hazm who said that it reported from Cumar, Abd al-Rahman ibn Awf, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, Abu Hurayrah and others among the Sahabah. He also said: "We do not know of any opposing view among the Sahabah." Al-Mundhiri added more names of the Sahabah such as : Abd-Allah ibn Mas’ud, Abd-Allah ibn Cabbas, Jabir ibn Abd-Allah and Abul-Darda. It is the view of the majority of the Salaf, and the scholars who came after them. Khalaf, there is nothing wrong with the site Islam-qa, it is an authentic site based on the authentic creed. Besides, the site hosted the translated risalah of the late Sheikh.

Khalafow, walaal, the main reason why the Nabi didn't expose the hypocrites was because the religion was in its early stages and thus not finalized yet. If the Prophet exposed and killed his companions, the Mushrikeen would propagandize this act to discredit the Deen and keep potential followers away. Hence why the Nabi said: "I do not want people to say that Muhammad is killing his companions." That event has no slight relation to enforcing a Shari'ax rule because since the death of the Prophet, no other person can claim to see the kufr of the hypocrites in their hearts so we judge by their outward-actions. The hypocrites make an outward display of Islam whilst inwardly concealing kufr so what about the one who outwardly displays kufr by neglecting the most important pillar and connection to Allah. If a person cannot perform salah, then how is he able to perform the other main pillars which rest upon the pillar of Salah? Is Ramadhan without prayer valid? What about Xajj? If a person neglects prayer, out of laziness or deems it as not compulsory, he is allowed a three-day repentance period whereby he is daily asked to return to Islam. If he returns, he shall not be executed but if he doesn't, he is to be killed as an apostate. The evidence for this ruling is in the following ahadith: "Between a man and shirk and kufr there stands his neglect of the prayer." Muslim The Prophet said: "The covenant that distinguishes between us and them is the prayer, and whoever neglects it has disbelieved" Axmad, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi The late Sheikh ibn Salih al-'Uthaymin (RH) has written a treatise about this. It has been translated and is available at the following link: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ln=eng&QR=5208 Have a look at it. Salamu Calaykum

^lol, after all these months, people are still resenting the ICU occupation. This is the unfortunate result of disrupting the peace of the city.