MR WD No matter how victimized you think some people are, sometimes a war does more damage than good. All General Morgan Did was make a bad situation for some people in Kismayo worse. And it will get worse for these people if he is defeated. The returning-guys to the city later might take their rage on whomever is left in town just because they are related to Morgan by tribe. That happens a lot as I had been a witness to such tragic events before. A town gripped by fear and people pointing fingers at defenseless others just because some Godless warmonger is waging or have waged a war on their behalf. Next thing you know is people being killed for nothing. See how bad the situation can unfold? And you are here in your safety crying "Victory" while others are cowering in fear in their homes and praying that god saves them to see another day on earth? Anyone who was there in the 1990s can tell you about the immeassurable terror people go through when such wars are taking place. The sadness and the abject gloom on people's faces, some of them crying in some dark corners praying to god, mothers holding on to their kids wondering if they will survive the torrent of bullets, the nights being more fearsome than the days, the uncertainties, God, speak of torment saxib. Only someoneone so far removed from the realities of war supports a war.

LIAGRA - This drug causes men to be less than truthful when being asked about their sexual affairs. Will be available Regular, Grand Jury and Presidential Strength versions. [/QB] Reminds me of Smart Clinton when he said: "I did not have sexual relationship with this woman" LOL.

Mr.WD All the way from Xamar? Are you sure about that? Yea, and I agree, They look like kids. But then again Guantanamo bay had some kids among the detainees as well. Nice emulation though it didn't pay off as hoped for.

Some people are gifted and very eloquent. JB fits perfectly in those. JB, You said what I wanted to say in a short post. I agree some people tend to get emotional about this. Personally, I am interested in this not because I want to deny anyone their own right of living as they please, or want to rule over them, or support anyone who wants to rule over them by force, but I desire to preserve what we came to grew up with as a country, That Seven Looking country that is home to all Somalis wherever they are born in the world. And it is about the future I am talking about and not at this moment. First time I heard over the radio this separation announcement, I was so shocked that I couldn't talk axcept say: These Guys are Crazy LOOOOL. I dismissed their announcement as one that came from embittered people who won what they have been longing for for sometime. I felt betrayed as a somali person by their Move to be Honest. It was like, How can they do this to us? All that emotion from a Kid wallahi who didn't even graduate from High school. But as years went by, and all I saw was only chaos and more chaos, with those Northern people bringing Order and civility to their part of the Country, I felt better but still betrayed. Now, I am all cool with any outcome although I wish things to remain the way it is as a country and people. And I believe that Somali government all inclusive can be negotiated in the future if the Southern people get their part fixed. If the trust of the Northern people can not be won over again through negotiation, personally, I am not involved in any dispute with them or will pick arms against them, or route for anyone who takes up arms against them. I liked the Nolander name. Perfect name. I never thought of that before.

Rayaana, Framing people as in "How"? I meant to say that if one speaks for all(specially when making negative comments), Others might have the tendency to accept the negative comment as a firmly held belief by the people whom the person is claiming to represent. That is not uncommon. Hope I am clearer this time. If not, let me know. It was negative thing to say people over there can't stand the name Somali. Somali is not a particular tribe, it is a name shared by all those who are ethnic somalis. A mistake/Comment people imbued with their revolutionary spirit should avoid lol. Satisfied Now?

Besbaaso, I wouldn't say all men feel the same about an educated woman unless there is something obviously wrong with her character. How does education hurt?

Qudhac, was I wailing? Keep in mind that a comment made by an individual is always taken to be a representative of a whole people's view in the minds of Most Somalis. That is what I didn't like about patriot's comment. Let him speak for himself rather than dragging a whole lot into this and speaking for them. Espacially if one is making a very negative comment. I think that is wiser. And I don't want him to be banned. It is not my call. I shouldn't have made that comment.

Waryaada, Talking to one person can mean offending a whole tribesmen who are not even participating That is what I don't like about discussing politics and Somali issues. I have nothing against anyone or any Somali person or Tribe. I apologize if I have offended anyone. It would have been easier if we were a society that sees a difference with an individual to BE NOT a difference with his whole tribesmen. And that is where our entire problem lies. The collective mentality that either makes you a saint or a villain regardless of your personal innocence or guilt. You are not Mr.X but always Tribe-X. I can't win for Losing.

Nice topic. It seems all the points have been covered already. Just wanted to add my extemporaneous thoughts prompted by some of the things mentioned here. Education as a survival tool is very important in America. What the future partner will think of it is not important. Anyone who saw the backbreaking jobs most somali women do would encourage them to enroll in schools to get a handle of the language at least if nothing else. The right education can mean having options and opportunities and gives the woman the ability to communicate with her kids later on(a major sour/need in somali community). And if the girl/woman is conservative one, who sometimes might opt out of a job because of the constraints and limits it puts on her, it is even more important. If such women have A diploma of some kind, they can still get jobs that accomodate them while they keep their conservative attire on. And if she can't get a job, she still can put her education to some good use by teaching Some kids. In every way you look at education(for women in particular), it is very important and rewarding. It is about their survival and for them to be somebody and live comfortably with or without a man. It can mean two incomes instead of one, more money for the family back home, less pressure or depression, the freedom to move anywhere if you dislike your environment and etc. Oh, last but not the least, how about a year vacation back home where your wife sends you plenty of money and you aren't worried things to come crushing down on ya? I should stop before I sound too optimistic. Anyway, What her earned education and comfort level does to her manners is different altogether from the importance of education. Not everyone acts according to the other, and because of that, it is stereotypical to assume/say an educated woman means TROUBLE or All men view educated Women the same.

Salafi, All this love for the sake of Allah is good and I didn't question it. I told you to use a different tactic and means of persuassion or dissuassion when someone disagrees with you rather than telling them openly or insinuating that they are on the wrong path to comitting the grave sin of opposing something that shouldn't be opposed. This is not to say you are wrong if you have a point against them(or against anyone), but the way you do it. This comment might have been bothersome to you and was the reason you started accusing me to have claimed the status of scholarship when in fact, I hardly take part in the islamic section debates. One should know about his abilities and credentials and I know mine very well. My silence was the testament you needed to know about my lack or little knowledge of islam. I feel happy with my status of a lousy learner and not a dispenser of edicts, or one who wants to question anyone's honesty who deals with him. I am just too busy trying to get over my problems and short-comings Runtii. Anyway, back to the topic at hand(we haven't been talking about Salafi creed here), You addressed one part and left out the other alone in regards to my questions about Somaliland. So I am gonna repeat it and like you to address it Please. "Can you say Somaliland rules by the Sharia Law like the Saudis Do? It is a yes or No answer. Have the government over there carried out any Xudud laws that I haven't heard of and I need to know?" What islamic laws do they enforce when violated if you know any? As for you basing your opinions on the book of God and the ways of His Prophet, I say Good for you indeed. I can't assert such claims on my part to be honest. One needs the knowledge to make such claims adn I don't have. That is why I avoid taking part in religious discussions where people are refuting each other and everyone claiming to have a case based on the Quran and Sunnah. I also have read and seen too many times before, people using the Quranic verses and the Hadith also accusing each other to have taken the Quran/Hadith out of context, or one of the group being in an obvious violation of the agreed upon meanings of the verses/hadith to enhace their own agenda, be it political or scoring a point against another Sheekh(who btw was said to hold the same creed as they do) just because they disagree on something. It is all confusing to me. I even went to the link you dropped here once before and checked out some of the stuff and its contents. The troid website. In any case, I am not here to argue about Islam but want to know if there is any truth to the claims/assertions made by asking simple questions We don't have to attack each other's islam to make the other look bad or accuse ourselves to be taking the role of scholarship when the subject at hand is just tribal politics and everyone is giving what he thinks the problem and the facts on the ground are. Bro Kowneyn Thanks for your Quote. That is progress on their part but nothing different than the Qadafi's Declarations and claims of servitude to Islam. Everyone takes refuge in islam even though most of the time what they are doing have remote resemblance to it

Salafi, You should start with yourself and be honest about who you are and your worth first. And I accept your advice. It is well taken since I don't think of me as what I am not. I am not silly enough to claim, act or pretend I know everything and I never did. Even if I knew a lot about islam, it would be wrong of me to say I know a lot about it. If you know everything(which you act as if btw given to your inherent questioning of other people's honesty and faith), I don't. I just told you to behave accordingly and stop accusing others or insinuating that when they disagree with you, they are disagreeing with Allah Almighty. And like I challenged you, Can you say Somaliland rules by the Sharia Law like the Saudis Do? It is a yes or No answer. Have the government over there carried out any Xudud laws that I haven't heard of? I know enough not to be intimidated by the likes of you whose knowledge don't go beyond questioning every Muslim's faith if they disagree with them. It is as if your line of defense against others is questioning their faith and digging holes in their Islam. Oh btw, I want you show me where I said this is HALAL AND THIS IS HARAM. Just pull that out from my Posts please. I can't wait to see the Quotes.

Salafi, Somaliland doesn't rule by islamic Law. They may have made Islam nominally the religion of the people since the inhabitants are Muslims, but that doesn't mean they rule by it. No one is blind and people are aware of what goes on over there. I am sure you Can't equate them with Saudi Arabia for example, whose employment of islam is obvious in the lives of its citizens and the way they carry out the punishments. To claim otherwise, SOUNDS FISHY on your part. Also, it would be nice if you choose other methods of persuassion or dissuassion than putting those who disagree with you in a position where if they disagreed with your point, they appear to be disagreeing with Allah. Saxib, No one is above disagreement except the prophet of islam whose word was part of islam, the rest are human beings who err and make the wrong judgements. Somaliland doesn't rule by Sharia Law evidently, its foundations are based on tribal protection(good in my book), its objective is to live separate from other Somali Muslims for fear of history repeating(fine in my book as well since I believe no one should be forced to live with anyone else if they choose not to, out of lingering distrust and nothing can be worked out in the immidiate future). Those who hail from there are making the wrong arguments in every debate they take part. Perhaps they should keep to the facts and they will be more clearer to others rather than saying silly things like "We are different", "We were called Somaliland before", "We are superior in culture" all of which shed a ngeative light on a matter already frawned upon every rule-book that cares about Islam and Muslim Unity. Not only that, but we are talking about people with the same blood, language and ethnicity who should have gotten along just fine about everything. Somaliland's existence(in the dreams and aspirations of its supporters) wouldn't be possible if it wasn't the former government's mistakes and abuse of power. It would have been very difficult and impossible for the proponents of the separation to even utter the word secession in the middle of their community. Now that everyone is at ground zero, as we were prior to colonial times, every tribe being independent and on its own, having love/hate relationship with their immidiate neighbours, Somalis can either choose to come together and correct past mistakes or let the status quo continue while everyone minds their business(I strongly believe that so long as somalis are adhering to the tribe loyalty, to not even bother about a government). This is what is going on. Let us Not pretend we don't know each other or part of us can be fooled by the same brothers they know in and out.

Rahiima, You are forced to accept the realities on the ground which are not your own making, therefore, I don't take your view as a weakness of faith but a position of powerlesness. There is little you and others like you can do in these odd situations where everything logical became illogical in the minds of Somalis and people with the right ideas are always the lonely voices in the Wilderness. My Question to you then is, Is it worth worrying to a point where you think your faith is damaged? It is hard to feel sorry for people who make the wrong choices all the time in leadership? they are so blind to excuse year after a year the same pitiful men. That is when I decided long ago, it is not worth it, LET THEM BURN in HELL here and get Extra one if they don't repent after Death. Wasn't there a verse in the Quran that read like "That is so because Allah will never change a grace which He has bestowed on a people until they change what is in their ownselves. And verily, Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower" ? Sis Rahima, Consider this as a sort of Punishment people deserve.

Patriot, I sometimes question your mental aptitude for the silly comments you spew out and put in writing. Do you think it is something good to inform people how others hate the word "Somali"? Do you ever think twice before you utter anything? Are you a Muslim marka Hore?

J11 You got me wrong I think. I am no tribalist or was born into tribal concepts really. My father never even discussed with me about anything tribal in nature. Advocating on my part doesn't include creating what doesn't exist. My point was to say that if it comes to future disagreements, and everyone sticks to their line, I am for no War and safe separation. And that is if people ask for my opinion in the future. I think Salafi-Online made the best point in light of the current situations. Mali Gal Not everyone is Fifty year Old. You could be older than I am You can learn the politics through observation. And Xarago said nothing bad about tribes. She seems reasonable reer waqooyi to me.

NGONGE Nice poem. Thanks. Rahima You have kept to a fine line. The problem with topics like these are the potential risks they carry in poisoning the innocent mind who believe in the collective interest of all somalis. A person can be changed forever after dealing with people who care about nothing and are obsessed with their own tribal interests. These topics are not for islamic minded and somali loving individuals. They easily get disappointed. Another fact is that these people online, arguing as if they represent a whole tribe, have nothing to lose. They are here to spoil everything for others.

Kowneyn Like I said, I have no problem if Some somalis want to leave the rest alone. It is choosing the lesser of two evils that Somalis are going to deal with in the future when they come together as North vs South. To address your question of whether you Northerners can sit and reach a deal on your own accord(I mentioned the international community like the UN because you guys are obsessed with it, so others will use the same venue to deny you what you want), I have nothing to lose If it(agreement between Northern clans) happens. I didn't want to see bloody conflicts anew in the first place. The only thing I am letting you do here is examine the facts on the ground without you being in denial of their existence. The impossibilities and difficulties that can come later on in the future need to be discussed now instead of later. You must at least plan What will your answers/reactions be later if things don't go your way? Ever thought about that? Wishful thinking won't solve problems for You. You must be realistic. And as you are a dedicated loyalist to the interest of his tribe, you must acknowledge that others who reside with you in the North belong to a different tribe and might have the same tribal loyalty to their own as you do. This is not to insinuate that others who live with you in the North can't decide for themselves if they wanted to stay with you in the end. I believe they are the ones who hold the key to peaceful separation really. They have Marital relations with you and have become more identified with you by other Somalis in many ways. However, You have to remember that Some people in the South will make an issue about the family connection they have with those who reside in the North. Do you get my point kowneyn? And try to be unemotional about these discussions. You can be simplistic and wish that isn't the case and all things will be good and easy, but the reality might be different in the future. You have asked for something extreme in the eyes of many Somalis. They are emotional about it although you might not care given your tribal sentiments. And to be honest with you, They are going to make this as difficult as they can. And as I pointed out in my previous post, things might end up as I predicted(although I could be wrong) if you insist on separation and the other Somali tribes who reside with you Don't save the Day by Deciding to stay with you. I recommend to you and to other Northerners to be realistic when You talk to other Somalis about Secession. Somalis have no stomach for this. But if you insist on your ways, it might get ugly or it might not depending on how things go in the future. In the meantime , I pray to God that your success in that corner of Somalia continues unabating. I am just worried about the future and The possibility that the progress you guys made will be crushed by new conflicts. Back to square one again. I hope others will leave you alone if you insist on your warped demands. I also hope that you guys make the sound decision of accepting a deal for your interests if things don't go as planned. A winner takes all can't be a solution for somalis. The World doesn't care. It will be you versus Somalis who disagree with you. My personal opinion is that this is wrong. I consider this to be a blow to Us Somalis. However, in the interest of All, I am willing to accept and advocate that you guys to be let go if you choose to. If you don't care about brotherhood and won't make a deal, if you can't forgive the past mistakes if others will admitt the wrong-doing, if you are living in the past with perpetuity, my conclusion as I said is, Let you and others call it a deal with fairness and to each his own. Just because we are somalis and are related, doesn't have to translate into unnecessary deaths over telling You to stay with the rest by force regardless of whether you have a justifiable cause and grievances like insecurity and fear about others or not. Something else to note in these somali politcs is, How Somalis are loyal to their tribes, So why should I single out one entity when most are emotional about their own tribes? After all, what brought us to this level is Tribalism and the Abuse of Power. All somali tribes have fear, mistrust and feel insecure about the other being in a more powerful position. Just look how most people in SOL are loyal tribesmen! Surely, they give you a pose and make you wonder what they would have done with uncontrolled power in their hands? They are obviously bias to their own. This rationale is part of what changed my mind over the years about Northerners seceding. If everyone is Crazy already, Why sinlge out another Crazy One huh? lol. The only difference I must Note here is that The rest of Somalis regardless of their bias, don't go as far as calling it quits. May be they don't have a history written by colonial powers for them that they can use as an excuse to be separate from other Somalis as you guys are doing, and they would have done it if they had. Who knows. Somalis deserve whatever they get. Finally, You question my sincerity to shed a negative light on what I said. The truth is, I just gave my opinion. Whether you like it or not will depend solely on your views and how far down you have gone the Road to perdition i.e. tribal sentiments. Somalida waa is taqaan. They can't fool each other. And you take care. Won't be around for a while. And I wish you good Luck Saxib.

Baashi, I agree with the points you raised and there will be no one usurping what doesn't belong to them if it comes to separation. That is how I think any bloodletting will be avoided. I won't be around for a while to continue this conversation due to my studies, so I hope no one takes what I said personal. It is just my opinion and the way I see things will unfold if all parties continue spousing their current views and nothing changes. When times comes for settling these disputes, Southerners if matured politically will dictate the outcome of what Somalia looks like by getting invloved. It looks like that they will demand Only those Who want to go willfully Will be let go(if they can accept secession in the first place). This might become an international matter if it escalates to a war and the World(If they ever get involved which I think they WON'T) will tell the both parties to accept the will of others and bring a resolution through voting. Eventually, the seceding party might end up with less geography and find themselves alone or with few others. And the reason for that OUTCOME will be because Somali politics are tribal in nature, What used to be Somaliland in Coloinal times won't be acceptable on the basis that this must be resolved through tribal demands TODAY. The world already decided to stay out of Somali Business due to the nature of the conflict that is purely to them Family Oriented disputes. I am sure if there was some Minority ethnic groups who were not somalis, a sizable minority whom the world felt the need to protect and broker peace on their behalf lived in Somalia, Somalia wouldn't have stayed out of the World Community discussions for long. But because this is considered all around the world a family pickering and tribal feuds, Neither Somaliland was recognized nor forceful resolution to disputes were imposed on Somalis. There is no pressure at all from outside. Only few times in the past, Some leaders praised Somalilanders for putting their house in Order. Just a lip service and that is All. Also, I have seen some Missionary groups(in their websites) spoke on behalf of the North to buy themselves some footing in Hargeysa so they can spread christianity, but fortunately, these groups were booted out for their activity. So basically, No one cares about Somali issues except Somalis. In the end I think, If there is a peaceful resolution to separation, the seceding party will have to accept Some defeat and call it victory while taking whatever they ended up with(mostly their pride and freedom from others as they wanted however odd this may sound). On the other side of the devide, they will have to accept a defeat and see some somalis depart with some Land. I don't think they will call what they ended up with a victory. Anyway you look at this, it is ugly, Unislamic, and based on what the prophet peace be upon him called "Stinky and Jahiliyah(pre-islamic doctrine). But then again if Somalis were true Muslims, nothing of this sort would have happened. So the beat must go on as it is, hateful and devisive. Back to square one. that is what I think and how I see these issues unfold. I could be wrong and the outcome might be less problematic. And I wish good luck to all Somalis wherever they are. I would like to see Somalis leave each other alone in peace so they can prosper separately if they can't come to terms. Og-Girl Your tribe lives in a huge swath in Southern Somalia. You are as Somali as anyone can be, and you are welcome in Any part of Somalia. Only someone with biased mind considers your tribe to belong to somewhere else other than Somalia. To us you belong, We are from you as much as you are from Us. I came to respect you very much. Don't change your mind and views because others seem to live in a world of their Own Sis. A pluralist Somali like you is what we need. And your father is true Somali Muslim. Rahima Seems that we have the same political view One more A grade point in your book for me should I come knocking your door asking for your hand Sis Ngonge Saxib, You are a good man and wise. I hope the likes of you will bring Somalis in the North and the Ones in the South Together. Xarago You are wise yourself and thanks for the compliment. Good luck and Take Care.

Was it Princess_Sexy that called Us Wimps? And I was blaming Juxa lol.

My feelings about Somalilanders going their separate ways changed over the years. But before I say it, I like to suggest to some individuals including Xarago, to see the sincerity of others in hoping that when the time comes, and Order is established in the South(the main priority now), All somalis should stay together as one. I understand Somalilanders consider this talk of unity with others as a prerequisite for Domination by Southerners Again. then the Question becomes(and this is in the future), Will the The northerners/Somalilanders negotiate with a harmonious, coherent, united in its objective South to make a deal to save the historic emotional bond between people of the same ethnicity? or will they(as evident from some of the forumers here) decide to go it alone? And what happens if they stick to their Ambition of a separate state? For some somalis, this will be a blow, a betrayal visited upon them, an emotional event that will leave them embittered for ages to come. For others like me, though I will not be joyous about it, I will understand that someone who doesn't want to stay with you for better or for worse, Should be let go. To each his Own destiny. I wish I could add with no "Contact" to express my disappointment with a brother who called it quits when he shouldn't. But I Know that won't work and is against my islamic Beliefs. I would argue this is against islam, to devide families and Muslims, to devide an islamic country based on names given by christian men who invaded the country in the first place. But islam has no hand in this. And people actually use islam itslef to justify devision and hate. So what we are left with is the Ultimate choice of Separation instead bloodletting and creating more animosity again. And my conclusion is, SO BE IT(Secession).

LoooL@GirlyMan, Baashi, You killed me. Juxa called some of us Wimps as well looool. Ceebtaaba iigu daran Qof dumar ah haku tiraahdo "Wimpy". It is possible that I change my mind and show some courage if the need be. Laakiin hadda sidey wax iila Muuqdaan, This is traumatizing event. It was nice people talked about this. I for one have learned something. Ilaahey ha u yasiro Naag walboo dhaleyso. I was thinking earlier may be I should be more careful in dealing with Mom although I am Baari according to her

NGONGE, That was nice advice. If one has the stomach to do it, others shouldn't make the act of participation, needed or not, look uncultural or abhorrent. And To go off topic on Me, I have fear of blood and can't even kill a cockroach. I even hit one time the breaks so hard to avoid a Squirrel in the street, My American friend on the passenger seat screamed "Jesus, with some expletives, It is just a Squirrel god damn it"!. So I don't think I will have the stomach for watching such pain of great magnitude as you described. May be the pacing will do when the time comes inshallah and staying to the last minute before the actual birth. I don't know for sure man. I have no Ego to be crushed though, only some other worries(phobia). And if the future wife asks for my stay, I will never say no I think.

Farxan, Oh, Sidaas miyaa! I thought I hit the nail on the head. Gosh, I mustn't have been paying attention. But you could be the one singing for the Ostrich while others sang for the camel If you look at the title, It asks whether you are in or out if it comes to your wife's delivery. Alla-Ubaahne declared staying with her to be part of an evil culture. I say it is not. And if he isn't going all the way, at least he is the one taking her there for the delivery right? Btw, Somali men in the west do a lot things(work) that wasn't supposedly part of their culture, and people back home would find it repulsive if they knew what was going on. This is far easier step to take. Tusaale hadaad rabtana waa nimanka Ariga Qala ee Hilib Xalaalka aad kasoo Gadato. Definitely, waa Xoogsato xoogooda maalaaya, laakiin xusuuso dhaqan ku sheeggii Soomaliya marki la joogey la hesytey iyo sida loo yasi jirey Ninka Hilibka Qalo? hadana inadeer kaliyaaba lasiiyaa shaqadaas. Aabayaasheen waxaas ma sameeyaan sheeko soconeyso maaahan. Get on with the program waaye meesha. Qasabna ma jiro oo la leeyahay you have to be there. Xumaan yaan laga dhigin waxaan Xumaan aheyn.

Alla-Ubaahne, Brother, Xaaskaada inaa la joogto markey foolaneyso dhaqan xun ma'ahan. Ugu yaraan, Adigaa geynaaya isbitaalka markey foosha qabato, admissionka u saxiixaaaya, Qolka loo qoondeeyana geynaaya ama la tegaaya. Waad la joogi doontaa ilaa dhaqtarka ka yimaaddo. At which point, haddii dhalista soo dhowaato, ama waad la joogeysaa oo gadaal ka istaageysaa, ama fadhiga meesha dadka wax ku sugaan ayaad fariisan doontaa. Maxaa dhibaatoo ku Jaban intaas? The choice is yours really. And if she wants you there, YOU CAN NEVER SAY NO. They even let you watch her through watching glass if you want to without standing next to her. I have been there before with my neighbour and his wife although I didn't watch(which I shouldn' t anyway). I stayed with them almost the whole night and he was with her untill delivery.

Discreet1, Thanks. Can I assume then Hepatitis is also Cagaarshoow? Cause it has the same characteristics as a yellow fever/Yellow Jack? It would be nice if there was Somali-English Medical dictionary. I am interested in that.