naden, I guess my presumptions of you being oh-so-confident and I-will-defend-my-beliefs all the way were utterly wrong. Not much of a difference there from the usual I see. Nonetheless, I didn't mean to focus any attention on you in particular and wanted people to be on your case consequently, or accuse you of what you are not. There, I addressed your fears if that is why you didn't want your name as addressee. If you were offended by what I said, then it is your prerogative to address them or ignore them. And if you don't want your name be mentioned altogether when I or others reply in these topics, then I am afraid you will have to call off participation in public forums and in this particular situation let real women like Ahura pick up the torch I am sure she has got something to say to me. Hornafrique Good question

Naden, Sexual thoughts and inclinations are humanly but acting on them depends on one's morals and beliefs. Also, reproductive rights include the right to have children and resist forced sterilazation(china comes to mind) as much as it includes access to abortion and birth control. Now, for a muslim woman, the buck stops at somewhere and her decisions are based on her beliefs. So abortion is not an option for her unless health risks are involved and her life is being saved. She would not have sex, get pregnant and then decide to kill the baby just because she made a mistake and wants to avoid a stigma. If her legs remain shut till she finds her desired man and with a contract to boot, she won't need to be a murderer and live with a troubled conscience for life. Other issues you mentioned as reproductive rights do not require government involvement as it is purely personal and people decide when they want to get married, who to get married to, and how soon etc. Marriage by force is not acceptable in islam, women have choices and can decide who to marry, the only ban on them is to marry a nonmuslim man as that may have an effect on their freedom to practice their religious beliefs and as men have influence on their wives. Belief in god and what it entails are more important than a man and marriage, so she should put God first. Government should not regulate reproductive rights or dictate how big or small a family should be. China tried that and it resulted in the killing of babies and preference of boys over girls. People thought to themselves that if they are allowed to have only two or one, why not a boy? Although India doesn't regulate the number of babies families can have, it experiences the same problem and girl fetuses are killed and aborted during pregnancy for cultural reasons. This is because it is expensive to have girls as her and her parents have to pay for her marriage. These societies are using technology to prevent unwanted girls to be born. Both governments have a looming social problem on the horizon. On the other side of the specturm, Where late marriages were encouraged, and extreme feminism took hold as in Europe, They are experiencing the effect of dwindling populations as their citizens grew older and replacements for them are not available. This is due to the ill concieved ideologies and people opting not to have children till it was too late to have more than one. With the exception of France and Germany, European populations are dwindling. Italy is the worst. Lately, There is a growing trend of professional women going back to the basics and choosing family over careers and questions of how late a woman should stay without kids are being raised. They weren't thinking about the biological clock and the health effects of late pregnancies. Anyways, the best source for feminist failures is the West, their achievements, although touted as great, still doesn't amount to the full rights their creator wanted them to have. They are still dominated segments in western societies after more than sixty years. Islamic countries do have their own problems to solve, and their problems are not emininating from religion but cultural mores that contradcit islam. And for muslim women to acquire their full rights, they need look no further than in their own Quran. Funny Quote from Queen Victoria: "I am most anxious to enlist everyone who can speak or write to join in checking this mad, wicked folly of 'Women's Rights,' with all its attendant horrors, on which her poor feeble sex is bent, forgetting every sense of womanly feelings and propriety. Feminists ought to get a good whipping. Were woman to 'unsex' themselves by claiming equality with men, they would become the most hateful, heathen and disgusting of beings and would surely perish without male protection. — Queen Victoria, March, 1870 http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.org/index2.htm

Bro Suldaanka, thanks for your time and discussion. Nothing personal I hope.

naden What gives human beings a distinction is their moral responsibilities and what they do with their circumstantial/metaphysical freedoms. If you are free, what are you going to do with your freedom? And are you bound by certain beliefs for example? What being free means is subjective and debatable, and that is where the blame to feminists comes in for their blunder in dictating and monopolizing what constitutes freedom and what doesn't. There are recognized universal needs and women in all cultures need protection and safety, education, to be able to determine their future and so on, but in islamic societies, there will be a self-imposed limit and definitions of what is personal freedom. Anything-goes-freedom is not recognized to be a desired freedom. Freedom with self-imposed limits to avoid contradicting one's beliefs is what most muslims do practice and need to practice. Freedom with moral boundaries is their objective. Besides, I fail to understand what you meant by "Sexual Freedom". Is it doing as one pleases including intimacy with the same sex or just plain sex done any time? PS: I don't claim moral superiority, just confused about certain comments Jamilah Am I guilty of the same thing? I must confess, I love having a good argument with some of the girls like Ahura, Amelia and rahima. They are quite a challenge and I like to prove them wrong and be a little chauvinist along the way. I like to be bad and who I can't be in real life with the consideration of how far I can push. It is more fun for me and appealing that way although I am certain some behaviours can not be excused under the pretext of having fun. My apologies if some of my behaviour has fallen under the categories you described and you were consequently disappointed or upset.

Suldaan, "From Magnificent earth" comment as my location should have been written as "from Menace" or literally "From the medieval war club" Okay, I see what you are saying, in your final conviction a minority must not hinder the progress of the majority and they should be ignored. Fine. Only problem with that is people who are interested to remain with the rest are no minorities for two reasons: A- They own and manage their towns and cities. And should they decide to remain with Somalia proper, what the brittish coined as Brittish Somaliland will be reduced to much smaller geographical area(will you accept that?), B- The rest of Somalis will stand by them morally and by any other means necessary although these somalis can not be intimidated and in fact can stand on their own. So Suldaan, for these two indomitable facts, Brittish Somaliland to be reborn as it was designed by the brittish is difficult. You will either negotiate a new deal(and take what is only yours landwise) or remain with the rest, either way, the Majority(the rest of Somalis) decides the future. This is actually if people will listen to your case to secede to begin with. If not, then stagnation will be the order of the day for you. I can say in no uncertain terms that no outsider can decide whether brittish Somaliland becomes independent or not. Somalis only will and can decide that. the world has laregerly abandoned this as somali issue and it shall remain so for the forseeable future. Castro. Thanks for playing the devil's advocate. You interpretted my post correctly. Bashi replied to the question you asked me. Btw, Suldaan, I didn't participate in this discussion out of animosity. I wanted to point out to you the impossibilities already in your way which will prevent you from anything you hope to achieve in terms of independence based on colonial history.

Originally posted by Suldaaanka: ^The irony or all ironies!!! I await for your facts to support your outrageous assertion that Somaliland is a Qabiil based entity. If you don't have any facts, be a man and print that out and then return it to where it came from - in other words - eat it. Bro Suldaanka, si daacada adigoo iiga jawaabaayo, ma jiraan dad reer somaliland aa isla wada tihiin oo ka dhashay gobollo kale laakiin aan kugu raacsaneen goosasho? Haddaa Haa tiraahid, Ma qaddarineysaa go'aankooda ah inay soomaalida kale wax wadaag noqdaan oo waddanka intiisa kale la haraan? Xaq ma u leedahay inaa adiga u hadashid? And if they are in agreement with you, can you show an official mouth-piece for them somewhere online or anywhere? Are you all Reer Waqooyi Galbeed Somalis united on this? Lastly, are you aware that if you insist on this secession and the rest of Somalis decide they don't want any war on this issue, Dhulka in taako taako loo cabbiri doono? Oo aa keli laga yaabo inaa noqotaan hadhoow? Cause the Brittish is not the colonial power anymore, his version of somali history is dead, and surely the brittish can't say anything about what goes on in Somalia. Their say about Somalia is as dead as Churchill Waa adiga iyo Soomaalida inteeda kale inaa ka wada hadashaan mustaqbalka.

Blessed, It negates Somalinimo when a somali person who disembarked at Hargeysa Airport or who Wants to get in through the border is told he must be from the Clan or the clans in the north with proof and his somali passport will not be accepted. I have seen someone who lived in Hargeysa for a while whose wife is from there. He eventually went to Bosaso and traveled to other Somali towns. His view was that you feel more welcome and Somali in other Somali regions and towns than you feel in Hargeysa. The place exudes clanism in the extreme. To put it bluntly, people are more racists to their own than the rest of somalis. All this twisted behaviour has to do with the concept of Somaliland and viewing the rest of Somalis to be outsiders. To maintain distinctiveness, and for you to be able to be separated from people you look like, behave like and share a lot with, you have to pretend you are different first then impose on them with the whole world looking on, uncalled for measures that prove their different nationality right? Anyways, you get the idea. This is exactly how every somali views people over there who are obsessed with what they call Somaliland. Fortunately, those same somalis from the north who are obsessed with the creation of clan state out of nowhere can go to any Somali town they please with no one questioning their Somalinimo or asking them why they are in a certain town doing business. Maakhir My curiousity about the North is that why these secessionist minded people have the loudest voice when there are large communities who oppose their choice? Is there some material online or a radio the rest of us can access and see/hear for ourselves how other somali clans are dealing with this issue of Somaliland Secession?

Horta kuwa Starbuckska fadhiisto waaba retarded, no question about their intellectual handicapness. I saw the other night the police seeing them to their cars arouind 9pm when I was filling my car with Gas. How shameful really.

Qabiil dowlad ma noqdo. That is what the entire world knows. Sharafta la iskama qaado.

You kids are funny Waryaada, AIDS baa ku wada dhacay wixii alaabtooda meel walbo kula dhici jiray. There is self-appointed vice and virtue police out there beyond human sight and control so you be careful and stay away from Xaram.

Mr.Oodweyne, my apologies then if you weren't downplaying rudyard's poem on one hand and then giving it legitimacy on the other by pointing to the status of where some political confusion and mayhem exists in the country. I understood what you were trying to say about Rudyard and his views which were based on and driven by his orientalism and profound pro-emperialism. I read most of his poems including the one purported to prove his humility and caution of note to his fellow emperialists Recessional. Anyway, again, my objective of mentioning the poem was to point out that if somalis want to settle their disputes, history written for them and how their land was curved by men like Rudyard should be off the table as an argument. We both agree that Men like Rudyard were not sailing the world for edification's sake but for the virtual salvation of a self-absorbed white world which found itself in dire straits, its environment depleted after centuries of dedicated abuse. Greed was their religion. My fault Mr.Oodweyne. I do have a room for improvements and don't see lack of comprehension here or there to be a setback.

Oodweyne, I will reply to you when you write a noncontradictory piece about Rudyard Kipling's bigotted views without the cheap clanish insults. It is quite evident the intensions of Europe were not to civilize anyone but to rob the locals and rape them culturally, consequently introducing decadence such as prostitution and homosexuality and all kinds of bigotry and devision into the invaded societies so they can rule them. Columbus, the head of the globalization of greed put it bluntly in his journal when he met the first native Americans: "They are fit to be ordered about and made to work to sow and everything else that may be needed, Nothing was lacking but to know the language and to give them orders because all that they are ordered to do they will do, they will do without opposition". This was the mentality of every whiteman who went to a nonwhite country where the natives culturally welcomed strangers to their homes and shared their resources. My point of referring to Rudyard Kipling's poem was to point out that a history written for Somalis by these thugs should not be used as a means of devision. I am not patriotic or give a hoot of who wants to go if that is what some want, at the same time, if some somali clans/clan want to go, they will have difficult time achieving that objective.

Khayr, Interestingly saxib, wealth can be vilified and a full stomach be considered a sin depending on who you ask. Likewise, the same vilified wealth can be made into a desirable achievement given the humanitarian islamically accepted projects you can fund with that wealth. Also, a full stomach can be said to aid in worship as severe hunger can render you powerless and unable to function normally or even focus on the same prayers you have to perform daily to get closer to your god. Of course, there is difference between eating like a pig and having your stomach content and moderately filled. But, at the end of the day, a muslim should have basic necesseties met and the state is accountable to provide for those who can't provide for themselves. Wasn't the mission of Zakat to collect wealth from the wealthier and give that wealth back to the poorer sections of the society alleviating hunger, poverty, envy and hatred, a class devision and animosity? Fighting poverty is a good islamic cause. Soomaalida waxa waalay faqrigaa ka mid ah saaxib. You don't see Saudis fighting over a sac of corn/maize like somalis do when they get some help from nonmuslims. Imagine what wealth can do for the malnourished child with his ribs barely containing the weakly pulsating heart? Anyway, Your point of view about the platform on which Hamas run on is correct only if the people who elected them expect quick riches and a solution to all their problems overnight. However, Palestinians are not fools I hope who expect to be made rich overnight by their elected. The reason they elected these guys is to purge their government from individuals who fattened themselves with Xaram and with a wealth that doesn't belong to them. Uprooting bribery, betterment of public service and eradicating nepotism was the aim. These are important issues that make peace possible and for a society to not pick-up guns against each other. If muslims or any other society for that matter doesn't have the means to address their problems, the only viable option for them is to bloody each other. Permanence is good if there are no needs for a change. Where there is a need, there has to be a change. Adduunyada horumar lama gaareen if people where reclined to a bad condition without seeking change. I agree with you that the main objectives should not be worldly. However, in islam, everything done accordingly becomes otherwordly no matter what the achievements are. I can fly to the moon and pray there and say "Look, I am the first muslim who prayed on the Moon" and seek paradise for being the first human being to prostrate for the creator up there.

Rudyard Kipling's poem of "The White Man's Burden" Half Devil Half Human should be a good read.

Miskiin, They announced independence out of the blue and every somali was shocked. Sometimes though, when you read or listen to people from the north who are pro-secession, you get the impression their plan preceded any civil war and government abuse. If the reasons for which they are asking to secede could be said to have been southern agression, then surely most southern somalis have nothing to do with what happened. In fact, as you mentioned in another post, the same former regime officials hold important positions in Somaliland government today. So why do the rest of somalis have to suffer the emotional abuse of seeing their country torn apart by the few? I heard no other clan/clans or specific community/communities wanting a state of their own for their sufferings prior to 1990 and after. Anyway, saxib, If somaliland is a region where more than one somali clan has a foothold, then secession driven by one or two of them is not possible. Somalia is back as clan animosity in the south has lost its potency and largely the south is peaceful. Waqooyi galbeed still remains part of somali proper territory and will forever remain so as long as the majority of somalis say so. Reer waqooyiga Dhinacooda haka sii hagaajiyaan waddanka.

Zeylici, does one have to be a tribalist to offer help or you meant something else?

Miskiin, reer koofur ku faraxsan waddankoo kala go'o haddaa aragto waa doqon qabiil neceeb dartiis u taageeraayo qalad ama maxamed dheere oo kale who believes reer waqooyi were burdensome lots to the south to begin with and they will only go away with their burden lol. As for going against the popular group mentality, it depends on how strong you feel about your individuality and indepent thought. If clan matters more to you, then you go with the flow even if you disagree with them. Btw, miskiin, have you forgiven me about the name callings? I disagree with you on what we have talked about still and it shall remain so, but my apologies about the insults.

Qof ku jecelaa kaala doodo inaa wax wadaag noqotaan. Reer koofurka diidmadooda in waddanka uu kala go'o waa ka daacad. Surely, they are not all coming to Hargeysa or to Berbera and want to settle there, they want the unity of what we know as somalia to remain as it is and stop some misguided somalis from cutting ties to the rest and deform the country. Unity "now" demand is good for posterity. Once you devide communities, each will introduce hatred and fabricated history to justify their stance against the other. Can you imagine 90% somalis hating on 10% of their own? Likewise, would it be beneficial for a minority to vilify their brethren and lie about them to justify self serving political interests based on clan sentiments to their kids? Each community now manages and takes care of their own business lately, some are on their way to doing that, so I fail to see why a somali group wants more than that and a small clan enclave/enclaves to be recognized as a country

Is there a manufacturing business in Somalia where you don't have to rely on imported raw materials heavily? Anyone with an idea?

Xarago, I wasn't unaware but rather never liked to be mired in "separation/seccession" politics. I can see through the veneer of the grandeur illussions and dreams of the few corrupted opportunistic elitist northern politicians and their diehard supporters. May be the dominant clan can be united on this separation, but the minorities who can't influence the politics and who might have expressed their unmolested wishes if they could, feel outsiders and have acquiesced. They surely find the whole process hermetic to them. I don't buy this separatist ideas are the brainworks of every northern Somali. I could be biased as a southerner and predisposed to dismiss it, At the same time, can you blame me to believe in conspiracy by the few opportunists? I want a vote, an open vote on this issue while the whole somalis watch on. I want every clan member in the north have a say in this. Whatever had been done in the past without due consultation with southern authorities who are legit won't count. Anyway sis, kheerka ilaahay soomaalida ha waafajiyo.

Xarago, reer waqooyiga soomaalida kale maka duwan yihiin? They have the same ills the rest of the country suffers from, may be even worse. Hadhoow waa la idinla xisaabtami doonaa, inta waqtigaas laga gaaraayo, waa iska riyoon kartaan. I do have dreams as well.

LOL, that says all about SOL politics section regulars or quasi regular members. I wonder where I fit?

Xarago, thanks for your time. I agree with your statement that these courts are not ready to rule the country and lead somalis. That is not what they were formed for. Each clan in Xamar came up with its own court originally to address own clan problems. Subsequently, after their numbers swelled, they formed an umbrella. I haven't heard them engage in any conflict before except few times when certain clan courts undertook some tasks and in the process got into dispute and clashes with antagonists who opposed their community service. A case in point, Lambar Afar used to be a location where alcohol was brewed, drugs sold and people felt unsafe doing business in the area. Even traffic flow was hampered because the thugs set up shop right on the intersection. So people requested the support of the court who had clan relations with the majority of drug dealers and thugs in the area. The courts cleaned up the place and brought the needed changes. These are what the courts in Xamar do when they have the opportunity to do something. They have undertaken some controversial missions in Xamar, but most of the time their mission were community inspired and they were asked to help. Anyway, to me, these courts are important community police, they should be strengthened and supported. At the end of the day, the courts are clan affliated and they can not wage a war on any community or clan. This was demonstrated recently when the courts invited Qanyare's clan for consultation and to express their concerns. The courts were after one of their own who had committed a crime against defenseless sheekhs and whose home the courts raided before to arrest him. Thanks for your time again and you have more reasonable thoughts and views than I expected

Khayr, How materialistic is it to alleviate poverty and provide communities with the means of education and jobs? Did I get you wrong or you were saying Hamas based their campaign on materialistic agenda? Granted, eradication of corruption and ensuring all the wealth goes back to the community in the form of services was their platform, I fail to see how that would be wrong islamically. Isn't that the responsibility of governments and if they fail in that they should be relieved of their duties so someone else who can do that be put in place? You didn't explain what kind of monarchy is better than democracy. What kind of monarchy do you have in mind? btw, among other negatives and disdainful aspects to monarchy, It is contemptible to be a subject of the king. Democracy can not be an ideal government all the time. It is subejctive. How good it is always depends on what the majority who decide believe in. If the majority agrees on certain ideals that contradict common decency, for example "slavery" is good, bigotry and discrimination are okay, then democracy becomes a mob rule where the minority have to live with the consequences of the majority's choice as America used to be. By contrast, if a muslim country allows its citizens to vote for their leaders, and consequently people choose someone who has their interests at heart, who rules them by the book of God, and who will be accountable to them all the time, then the democratic process they used is actually in line with islam. That is how I understood the articles posted that were in favour of democracy. The basic idea is, can muslims choose their own government and leaders? Can they replace if government fails them? What do you say? Loyalty to a leader is out of the question if he is not qualified. Wax loyalty la dhaho cid laga aqrisanaayana ma jirto. This idea of governments staying in place forever and leaders staying on unchallenged is what put islam where it is. There is no accountability although some islamic governments are better than others.

Xarago, Oki sis My only question to you and to miskiin is, who do you think will rule the country considering the utter failure of everyone in Somali politics within the last 15 years? Who would you suggest to be the right leaders for the country? Also, do you guys know about the growing influence of islam in the country? You can set aside for now anyone using islam to enrich themselves or the courts, just tell me what you know about the growing influence of islam or what you would call islamists/islamism. The changes that happened to our society and how islam is more prominent and more pronounced than it used to(this is not to say we were not muslims before but we all know islam was confined to the mosques and rituals and remained apolitical as far back as somalis adopted islam). So, do you guys think, you and miskiin, with the subsequent failures of the usual suspects, warlords or corrupt politicians, islam can be the final solution that somalis have longed for? What can unite us as somalis since all else have falied to produce honesty within us? Thanks.