Hi Scarlet, it is an excellent article, thank you. It defined Somalis and their thinking better than I could ever imagine. It must have taken years of observation and keen interest in us to come to this exact understanding of our community. As for the Question you asked, I would say only feudal societies might take a cue from Somalia's failure and do something before they disintegrate. I don't know how Somalia can be a model for countries that don't have clan systems or clan culture. The article exposed problems with clan loyalty and how it trumps everything else and is saying perhaps Somalia is better off in a decentralized state where clans don't feel threatened by each other and each community has its own freedom. Inshallah, we hope somalis will live peacefully and in prosperity. I also hope that out of every community, comes strong willed, islamic oriented somalis who take the mantle so it becomes easy to bridge, mend, and bring people together.

Originally posted by makalajabti: My Dear beloved People, you make me laugh. Hijab is just a piece of clothing that most somali girls wear because of their parents and relative. To get some peace! In my spare time I wear hijab too just to please my parents. ....and I am not a saint! You are a good candidate for Dhaqan Celis. Besides, a wise person doesn't admitt to cheating their parents as that would hurt their feelings had they known right? You could have written without telling the world how you double cross poor mom and put on a good show for her

Sheherazade, Any chance you have a picture of that destroyed mosque by the Hindu mob after they alleged it stood on/was built upon a hallowed hindu ground? You can be a good story teller. You do have a fiery way of writing too. WildCat is an excellent writer as well like Jamilah who rarely writes. Not to forget Naden, Ahura, Amelia and etc.

Originally posted by sheherazade: I'm the one on the left. I love this pic. How nice of you sheherezade showing us only your back Great pics. Islam left a lasting impression on india.

LOL Allamagan, adigaaba si qurux badan hilfaha ugu geddiyay xaajiyo Xarago. Duqda kacaamad weynaatey waaye noo saxib, Gadaal ka gaar goob dumis waaye ma maqli jirinoo? Xataa afkii ay ku hadli jirtay wey ku xanaaqday.

Originally posted by Xarago: Ha huuno waa mid adiga weli ku dhiman badhashadiisa.. Maxaa isugu dhibtaa lahjadaan reer waqooyiga oo aa keeni karin? Meeqaa reer waqooyi qabiil ahaan ka dhashay haddana ku kortay xamar? Afka xamariga lasoo bax, I know you are excellent speaker of it. Xusuuso markaa kusoo biirtay meeshaan sidaa wax u qortay, that was really cool. And I mean Af soomaaligaada. Beyzaaniyaddaada caadiga ah kusoo noqo warkaan aa qoreesid madax xanuunuu leeyahay. This "dh" in every word is surely annoying lool. Teeda kale, caasiyaa tahay. Adigoo kale waxaa la rabay inaa warkaan Somaliland isaga baxdo.

Where is Alle-Ubaahne? It is getting a little boring already. May be LazieGirl's prediction that he wouldn't dare show his face around became true.

Northerner, Caqliyaa leedahay saving your brains for better and more useful subjects than the sanitized european history containing truths and half truths, unsupportable myths and outrageous lies. I googled the company you mentioned to find some information about it and didn't know what it was before. Wikapedia has short interesting bio about it De-Beers Lavie. Where do you live? yea, they got one thing true, the unparticularized miasma of anger inherent in blacks. But it is not without merit

Originally posted by Northerner: ^^lol, Italia is not a very nice place if your Black. Imagine 10 of you in a group walking through Parma (as Somalis) but Milan was a better place. Funny thing is, Other Europeans despise the italians for allegedly being noneuropean entity. They call them turks and ottomans. It makes sense for these italians to take their frustrations on darker souls. Anyway, I think it would be nice and fair if they taught in European schools how their ancestors(Europeans that is) basically stole, pillaged, and robbed every body else through colonization. They are the only race who travelled thousands of miles for pillaging and robbing entire nations of their wealth, history and artifacts sometimes decimating whole races and wiping them off the maps along the way. Does anyone know if I can write a reply in that link? I scrolled down and didn't see the write a reply option lool.

Originally posted by Scarlet: Xoogsade, Nope. I meant X to Z, cause saying A to Z would mean I'm generalizing like Mr. Alle Ubaahne, and we don't want that do we? Laakiin, the anonymity of the internet can be tempting. It's easier to discuss ideas that you've always wanted but was made to feel uncomfortable if you bought up in real life. Anyways, Believe it or not (this relevation is quite shocking) but Sheh and Rahima actually got lives and have no time nor interest to sift through a bunch of threads and act as word police. If you have a problem then do something about instead of screaming. Cause when you scream we just wanna slap you. I agree some people cross the boundaries of decency but that's people for you. We're bound to have a couple of people we don't agree with in a population of any kind. *slap*! That is what I told Ahura already. If one has an issue with what someone wrote, they better take on him/her and settle the matter in a civil way without involving the moderators. Mods are and should be the last resort. I would only request their aid in stopping someone who insults God or religion. Anything else short of that, the forumers can take care of it by raising their objection.

LazieGirl I am giving Alle-Ubaahne the benefit of the doubt and don't think he meant all SOL girls to have lost their decorum. I could be wrong but Unless he comes back and says he means "all", I will hold on to my judgements of him. And even then, I will only correct him but not demean him. Sheherazade I am still in a knockout situation That was funny.

LOL, Sheherazade, will be back when I have more time and recovered. I feel disoriented a little from your knockout blow on my face

Sheherazade See how scarlet wasn't offended a bit by what Alle-ubaahne said and was sarcastic in reply. It would be nice if some of you girls put their swords back into their sheeths for a change. Anyhow, It is wrong to generalise, at the same time, being specific is wrong either. So I pose the question to you as you are one of the smartest girls around here, how does one go about addressing an issue that he/she deems important and wants to correct percieved ills without offending the female residents? Rahima Come on sis, I hardly visit this corner. Plus I respect you girls and would never say anything that would tarnish your image. I will leave on my own as usual, so bear with me for a while and besides, you are not as dictatorial as you wanted to portray yourself you are as reasonable as any person can get although sometimes you side with girls just because, oh well, they are girls like you. Ahura The subsequent conversations we had in this thread after the first post will spoil the chances for any would be abuser. We already took care of such eventuality, don't you think? Plus those light bulbs under Rahima and Sheherazade is deterrent enough

Ahura, Personally, I would rather deal with someone who wrote something I disagree with and challenge them in the forums than ask a moderator to delete their posts. There are limits one can't cross and a moderator will be forced to delete a content that is blasphemous for example, but other than that, I think the forumers can challenge each other's subjective or biased views. That is how we learn. The title of the thread is judgemental but the motivation is sincere And if Alle-ubaahne was pointed and mentioned names, it would have been even worse as that would have shed an unwanted light on girls he was aiming at. Surely, only a fool would believe all SOL girls have lost their decorum and that is not what Alle-ubaahne meant. I hope he can clarify that to us. Anyway, good to see you around. Rahima It is good to have a male viewpoint in this section as well. They should respect the females but I think it would not be as fun if you were girls left alone.

Originally posted by Scarlet: Alle-Ubaahne, Everyone is losing their xishood, from men to women, from old to young, from X to Z, if that's surprising to you then maybe you should go back under that rock. LOL, I think you should have said from A to Z instead of from X to Z. There is only one letter in between x and z but the other option will cover a whole lot of numbers without making me think the X has to do something with me lol.

Originally posted by Ahura: Who died and made you the xishood police? Orodoo shaqo yeelo. If anything, the mods should delete this offensive thread. Sis Ahura, the idea is to keep what one does under wraps and private as that is what islam teaches. What one does with himself/herself is purely personal, however, it is against the rules to promote something forbidden in public and minimalize its negative effects. It is like me being a killer, at the same time, seeking a public platform to promote how to kill undetected and that killing is modern. Can that be excused? That is what motivated Alle-ubaahne to open this thread although I disagree with the title as it seems to generalize SOL girls and doesn't make an exception. Nonetheless, the moral of the post is valid. Alla-ubaahne Saxib, why don't you make an "exception" and edit the title a little?

It is not that easy saxib. Imagine in a society where you are shunned and if you move into an area, all the whites move out? Eventually, businesses move out, the public school in that area loses substantial amount of money because the tax paying whites have moved out. American system is designed to help the rich get richer and the poor poorer. I don't think blacks haven't tried to better their conditions. They can only go that far without substantial help of government support. How about pay for their colleges? expunge the unncessary records most black males have so they can apply for a job and work? Although there is an image problem, and the whole society thinks of blacks as lazy worhtless beings, most of them would get out of their dire situation given the opportunity me thinks. My Sr co-worker is black and he is very educated in what he does and taught me everything I know at work Millions like him exist if they get the chance. At-lanta Georgia is a good place to see how some successful blacks made in America.

Originally posted by makalajabti: [Q]If Those black people in the projects are so lazy/****** that the only thing they can think of is to deal drugs and raise their children in rundown blocks, there is nothing the world can do for them. It's their own fault, not the white men's burden [/QB] Taking account into the long term psychic damage incurred from slavery and generational abuse might help you understand how difficult it is for these blacks to free themselves from poverty and lack of education. In america, your grandfather's success translates into yours most often and we know majority of blacks live and stay and ultimately die in the gutters they were born. Majority of them don't have the means to leave and seek other opportunities in America. I as a somali refugee who came to America as a free man with all the amenities the US government could offer me in terms of education, housing, and other opportunities had better chances of making it than most blacks who were born and raised here had. I used to be upset with them for letting themsleves down assuming wrongly that their condition is self-inflicted. Although to a certain extent that view may be true, what Edward Blyden said holds true: " Every race has a soul, And the soul of that race finds expressions in its institutions, and to kill those institutions is to kill the soul... No people can profit or be helped under institutions which are not the outcome of their own character "1903. From being abducted and chained, hauled into a ship from Africa to American slavery, to false freedom and institutionalized racism, Blacks had been struggling all their life and were always making ends meet. It is easy to understand their anger and utter distrust to a white system if you read some history of black america. There is more to the ugly realities of a ghetto life and drugs than meets the eye. Although I am not going to be thankful to a specific group or persons in America, I do believe their struggle and survival in America helped pave the way for me as a black person to be accepted in America.

Originally posted by makalajabti: My source of knowledge? well everything I presume like everyone here. But your are being obscure.What background you are talking about, you mean somali people or something else? Who gives you the right to determine when people can argue or not and references to their own background is irrelevant. I am not talking to anyone in particular but expressing my views. What do you think Xoogsade? That all somalians have the same views on everything? Makalajabti, The answer to your last question can be both "yes" and "no". It depends. If I confess to be a muslim, then the expectation is that I can not question the validity of a fundamental religious tenet/practice in islam. I am either ignorant of the facts if I do oppose and question such fundamental teaching of islam or lying about my adherence to islam. Either way, many will question me about what I say. That is what goes around in these forums when people discuss about issues rooted in culture and religion. Apart from that, I don't expect all somalis to have the same view on every thing. One's background in discussions of this nature are important. Thinking on the same level and understanding where people are coming from will foster amiability. I think what is important for everyone, a muslim, a nonmuslim, the moderately educated muslim and the not so educated muslim about islam, is for them to do some checking and be fully or substantially informed about a subject and then argue from an informed position. That way, even if people don't agree with each other, there will be some understanding between them at least and people won't direspect each other, defame or cause others to leave a debate somehow feeling offended. I think most people mean well when they discuss. I apologize if my tone comes across as dictatorial or imposing. I didn't mean to be either. And finally, I have a question which you may have been asked before, are you a somali? Not to deny you a birth-right but just out of curiousity.

makalajabti, What is your source of knowledge and motivation to determine how you as a woman should behave and act? Remember, the community you are talking to here has its own source of knowledge, its own beleifs and ideals which they hold dear. They will accept what is universal and commonly and will reject anything that contradicts their beleifs. A muslim woman is guided by her own beliefs, her guide is her quranic book and the social norms she has are the direct result of her beliefs. That is what you and others need to understand before they argue and debate. Bottomline, do you have the same background as the people you are talking to? bartender Gotta run for lack of time, I was gonna ask you, why name yourself bartender knowing the connotations it has

Codetalker, Americans may vote in another red-neck in 2008. That is because Democrats are just plain spineless hypocrats. They discourage tough democrats to run for offices even at a state level because they think the public wants someone like Bush, belligerent and moronic who tauts how great America is and how america is going to crush nonwhite minorities around the world. If I were to vote, I would vote for a republican just to deny these cowards any chance of claiming victory.

naden, I hope you agree with me now that brevity is no use when it comes to discussing important issues like feminism. You can only say that much in one post and I am certain you still have important aspects of feminism to address. It is a life long issue and people across the world have a stake in it as the feminist ideologies and their movements shape their systems and consequently their lives. While it takes two to bring about pregnancy, the psychological burden of abortion affects only the woman and the result of the operation might even be worse than raising an innocent kid who will love her eventually. The man who got her pregnant played his sinful role and screwed up the woman, likely abandones her to the elements and might be preying on another, however, since this issue is feminism, I thought women were the priority without forgetting the culprit who is the purveyor of pains. One can only prioratize what seems more important to their mind without necessarily forgetting the full story when they write. Contraceptions and birth control belong to the conversation and have their own merit. I didn't forget about them. However, while they are acceptable, question is, who uses it? and when? In islamic countries, people will surely give priority to abstention where unmarried people are concerned, in the West, sometimes distinctions are made and most often not, abstention was frawned upon as a method of prevention untill recently and is gaining pace right now as christian conservatives seem to have the upper hand in social issues in America. Should kids have unfettered acces to birth control? Should kids be encouraged to abstain? What about sex education in schools? The list of concerns is endless and can not be discussed in one single post. Anyways, I have already written too long and don't intend to bore you more with my diatribe as that seemed to have been what you deduced from my write-ups. I let someone else pick up from where they feel necessary and will happily enjoy the role of a reader if I get time. And finally, My classlessness is not important but the subject matter and what you think is. If you eloquently put your points across, you don't need to mention how twisted or low someone is. Classlessness of the other or his malcontentedness will automatically be obvious to others without you mentioning them. Just a tip and hope you don't see this again as me dictating a list of ettiquetts you have to do. I need them as much. I have written too long and feel like I haven't said enough, but this will suffice it. Castro Thanks for getting her to talk It is your return to discuss the issues as I have said what I wanted to say. I am not good with handling women ya know lol. I live upto my name saxib.

Hey odayaasha, xiin and Castro (it feels good to call others Odayaasha lol) after greetings, thanks for your input. Castro You are as good as naden or anyone with an objection to raise a voice. That is the whole idea of public forum. So castro, fire away at what you said were wrong views in my earlier post. naden If you were indifferent, you wouldn't have replied. I assume you know forms of argumentations one of which was employed socrates where he reduced his opponent's views to absurdity then suggested better opinions. You tried to belittle my ideas but failed to use a better method. In your case, you admitted defeat by telling me not to address you. All of a sudden, I was taken back in time when I was a kid and I used to tell my opponents, ha ila hadlin Anyway, you get your wish and I won't mention your name although I think it is more respectful to address people directly when you want to talk to them. Tata, I must get back to work. Bro Xiin and Castro, good to see you guys this late. I am wondering if you have permission to be online and you aren't suspected of some folly

Abdulnuur, for you to grasp the fallacy of both your arguments when it comes to addressing people in public forums, can you answer why you are addressing me out of the blue? You must have felt a need to reply to me right? So you did. Now, can I say to you "you don't address me and address the public? Does that make sense? We are not having a private conversation nor am I showing special interest in her. And in reality, it may be that she is not upset about me addressing her but rather some discontent with the content of what I said. If she was afraid to argue against certain points I made, and her response was me not to address her, it makes sense. But addressing her alone is not wrong as she gave away her rights to privacy when she wrote in public. As long as I don't disrespect her and insult her, then all is fair. If she is intelligent, that is good for her. Intelligence was not at issue but some beliefs expressed invariably in this topic and I addressed. I don't have time right now and have to attend to certain technical problems that require my attention, however, in my absence, you can drop your two cents and I will be obliged to address them deservedly.

Where is the insult? Mise waa oohinta orgiga ka wayn? In case you are confused about the real women, it meant women who can stand by their beliefs and won't opt out just because they don't like what someone says.