How did I miss Bishaaro's Post to me??? As usual, treating me like the chauvinist I am NOT

WaterLily, You would have presented a solid case against somali men for their contribution to the endurance of the practice had it not been the fact that this norm was thought by all somalis, males and females alike, to be a religious duty. And I am talking about girl circumcision in particular. I wouldn't be at fault if I say somalis thought if they didn't circumcise a girl, her prayers wouldn't be accepted. There is truth in your suggestion(about men in some of their thinking) but the religious treatment given to circumcision was mostly the reason people practiced that norm and still practice. They treated girls just like boys and all had to be given an undeniable religious right. Once somalis back home understand islam doesn't require it, an ignoramus man's expectations won't have an effect. I sorta feel embarrassesd talking about this. As you see, Xiin left it alone for the same reason But I don't care, isheyda cirbad ma durto if you understand that.

I see Nur redirected the topic to its origins, however, I have been looking for alternative interpretations of the Hadith Salafi presented for a meaning as correct interpretation. I didn't find any as of yet(except one article) due to time constraints. I will appreciate if others look for more interpretations and views about the Hadith quoted as proof of intellectual defficiencey. I found some discussion in the form of question and answer regarding the topic and it left me wondering. It provides some considerable points of view/interpretations. I would like to see your views on it after you read if you may. Thank you. Here is it is: Discussion Initiated by Anonymous from Pakistan on 29-Jun-2000. Title: Discussion on 'Are Women Deficient in Intelligence & Religion' Question/Comments: I am still bothered by this Hadith (Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301). I can't imagine that a requirement of God (i.e. not praying during menstruation) can be interpreted as a deficiency in faith by the Prophet (pbuh) himself. Many women very well could pray during menses but do not because it is not allowed and they are good Muslims who follow their religion -- and this makes them deficient??? You said in your previous answer that it really means that women have reduced responsibility in matters of "practical wisdom and religion". Somehow I am not convinced that a woman can take the responsibility of being a good Muslim more casually than a man can (this may be a separate issue but let us assume you are correct in this case). What does this have to do with women being ungrateful wives? I don't think most women are ungrateful at all (do you?), and I especially don't think that not praying during menses/needing two witnesses is a factor in leading men astray from their righteous path. Why would the Prophet (pbuh) say that? Especially when you can blame no one but yourself for straying from religion (how can you say it is the wife's fault that the husband went bad?). I am sorry, but I am confused and extremely saddened by how this Hadith is currently interpreted by me and others. I know Islam is perfect and Allah sees man and woman as equal in religion. Please help me understand. Regards, Answer: Let us first try to understand the narrative. According to the referred narrative, the Prophet (pbuh), in one his sermons addressed to women, is reported to have said that they should give a lot of charity to balance the mistakes that they (intentionally or unintentionally) commit. This is basically the central theme of the address. In this address the Prophet (pbuh) is also reported to have expressed his surprise over the influence that a wife naturally has over her husband in the following words: I have not seen any one who has more influence on an intelligent and sensible man than you, although you are deficient in [responsibilities of] intellect and [those of] religion. A cautious, sensible man can easily be led astray by you. The point that has been made in the above statement does not imply that when a woman entices a man to do something wrong, the responsibility of the wrong, if ultimately committed by the man, is solely upon the woman. It only means that because, in such a case, the man has committed a wrong after being lured by the woman into it, the burden is therefore shared by both, even though the wrong is actually committed by the man. Nevertheless, it is actually in this context of the expression of surprise, that the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said the referred words. You write: I can't imagine that a requirement of God (i.e. not praying during menstruation) can be interpreted as a deficiency in faith by the Prophet (pbuh) himself. The Prophet (pbuh) has not interpreted it as a 'deficiency in faith', on the contrary, it has been termed as a deficiency in the responsibility imposed on women in matters relating to religion. The two, as you can see, are not synonymous. The referred deficiency, because it is due to a natural phenomenon, is not condemned. It has only been referred to in the context of the expression of surprise, as explained earlier. Moreover, such a reduction in responsibilities due to natural or uncontrollable reasons, whether it relates to a woman, or a man has no effect on the rewards of the hereafter. Thus, the words ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), if seen in their right context, imply: "It is surprising that a creature, who has been given lower responsibility due to its nature, has such a tremendous effect on a man". You write: I don't think most women are ungrateful at all (do you?), and I especially don't think that not praying during menses/needing two witnesses is a factor in leading men astray from their righteous path. Why would the Prophet (pbuh) say that? I have already answered the latter part of your statement above. As far as the first part is concerned, it does not refer to ungratefulness in its ordinary connotation. It actually refers to the grievances that a wife may have from her husband, on account, generally, of the non-provision of worldly comforts. These grievances, as is generally the case, when they become vocal, are a major cause of domestic disturbances. In fact, it is the diplomatic and effective expression of these grievances which can influence and entice the man into doing wrong. It should also be stressed that the statement ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) does not imply the universality of the problem or that every woman, without exception, possesses this feature. On the contrary, it is only a statement of admonition. The problem may actually have been present in only a few of the women who were present at the time. However, the Prophet (pbuh), very wisely, admonished all those who were present at the time, to increase the effectiveness of the admonition. This was the general style of the Prophet (pbuh) while admonishing others. He would normally avoid naming or singling out the particular person who was specifically being admonished. One of the biggest advantages of this style of general, rather than specific, admonition is that the particular person gets the message without becoming defensive or egotistic about it. All your subsequent questions may be answered in the light of the preceding explanation. Nevertheless, I would like to add here that all the above explanation is given with the presumption that the words of the referred narrative have been correctly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh). It is, however, possible that there may have been a mistake in the ascription of these words to the Prophet (pbuh). If we look closely at the different versions of the referred narrative, we see that the chance of a mistake by one or more of the narratives cannot be ruled out. For instance, in the narrative reported in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Haydh), the Prophet (pbuh) delivered the complete sermon in a gathering of women[1]. In Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, however, the narrative has been reported in a slightly different manner[2]. According Musnad's reporting, the clarification of the statement ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) regarding women being deficient in responsibilities relating to religion and intellect was not sought by the women in the gathering. On the contrary, it was only the wife of Abd Allah ibn Masood (ra), who sought this clarification, sometime after the gathering had dispersed. In yet another reporting, as it appears in Daarmiy[3], the words relating to the deficiency in the two responsibilities were not even spoken by the Prophet (pbuh). They were spoken later, by Abd Allah ibn Masood (ra), without ascribing these words to the Prophet (pbuh). Thus, it seems quite possible, keeping the narrative of Daarmiy in perspective, that some of the later narrators may have ascribed the words actually spoken by Abdullah ibn Masood (ra) to the Prophet (pbuh) by mistake. If this be the case, then the Prophet (pbuh) did not even mention any reduction in the responsibilities of women. 30th June 2000 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] Including the part of the explanation of the "deficiency in intelligence and religion". That is, according to this narrative, when the Prophet (pbuh) said that 'women are deficient in matters relating to the responsibilities in religious as well as worldly matters', women asked for its clarification and the Prophet (pbuh) in response gave them the example of missing prayers in menstruation and that of the lower responsibility in the case of witness. [2] Volume 2, Page 373. [3] Kitaab al-Tahaarah. The Question Under Discussion Are Women Deficient in Intelligence and Religion? (4/10/1998) Hits: 5,498

Well, salafi, although I don't care personally whether you replied or not(preferably your quiteness is more pleasant and less damaging in this thread than your twisted views), I would advise you to add to your signature collection the verse that says "And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like the mountains in height." for being prideful. If I were you, I would worry about me(and I do naturally).

So Aisha just because she couldn't be a singular witness or needed/can't fulfill the role of waliyul-amr as you said, she must be intellectually inferior to you as a man? As for you not being able to stand on your own and must follow blindly sheekhs, FINE. However, you should/must accept these same sheekhs or any otehr would be disagreed with when necessary and that there are no limitations in number about muslim scholars who had fulfilled the qualities of a salafi scholar, you can not impose on anyone the few sheekhs you favour out of the thousands of muslim scholars who had earned the respect. And the only man I will be asked whether I followed him or not is the messenger of God. Again WAX SOO BARO. Edited.

Originally posted by Salafi da'wa: Xin, Yaa akhi You insist I am misrepresenting the hadith yet you refuse to provide an alternative explanation. Save me from ignorance saxib, furnish us with the sound explanation. If people disagree with your blind taqliid they are ignorants? The likes of you are not even aware what they carry on their backs like "the likeness of a donkey who carries huge burdens of books (but understands nothing from them). How bad is the example....." Al-Jum'ah As muslims, we have the right to disagree and agree with sheekhs no matter who they are. Each one of us is responsible for their own faith and Allah won't ask us/you about Bin Baaz or utheymiin in the day of judgement, so you will best serve these noble sheekhs if you stop using them for your end and stand by your misguided opinions if you can. If women are so intellectually inferior, then Aisha is in the list who is one of the teachers of muslims and will forever remain so. The interpretation you favour surely makes her a candidate as it collcetively places all women in the lower intellectual rank. Wax soo baro.

WaterLily, How about if a man had no hand in pervading this condemned practice? will his choice of a woman be discriminatory?(This is not about me, I swear, just asking). I don't believe all somali males contributed to this and it is largely driven by the cultural machination. Ahura, I let you enjoy tobal-caarada but just to reassure you, I find you fit to challenge me without them in case you decide to return them back to the owner.

Develpoments like this would have significance if Ethiopia and the US government stopped supporting the warlords in muqdisho and conferred with the TFG as Geeddi suggested for all issues in the Country. Otherwise, xafiis meel laga furtay qiimo malahan.

Blessed, You could be mistaken by not placing me in your geeljire-guys book lol. I might just be putting a facade of a modern guy while I wield my geeljire sword hidden behind my back. You never know Blessed. I see myself as a Typical Somali(Geeljire). Take care Now.

Sheh, lol@Nice boys have too much power. Dealing with females is tricky, so one can't count on being nice only. I don't even want to list for its sheer length the rap sheet a man has to check to see if he has a chance with what Khayr called "The educated Young and The restless Women" I am better off calling hooyo and telling her "land" me a girl. Easy like one..two..three

Sheherazade, If some individual or groups of people make the effort and address the issue, and they are doing that out of sincerity, without seeking fame or denegrading Somalis, much power to them. I surely agree with their project. It is just for personal reasons that I don't want to discuss the subject with people or make it a project of my own. Where I wield influence, of course, a girl would not be going through the knife. But where I share the responsibility collectively as You, Ahura and every other somali is, my word in an opportune way will suffice it. Anti FGM voices had been raised in the country before and most residents in Muqdisho who were educated opted for a lesser practice they called Sunnah(although there is no sunnah circumcision for girls in islam). I constantly hear from my religious relatives(the guys) how they want to marry a sunnah girl(meaning midaan la taaban lol), so definitely, Somalis have awareness of the issue lately even back in the country. The practice will take long time to uproot but the wind of change had been there way before Ugly Ayan and her likes came into the scene inundating us with hateful voices. Ahura Your embarrassment and shame is of no importance. Your ineffectual rantings are too little, too late. It would be nice if every girl had some balls like yours. Amelia Thanks. You have fallen into my trap. You gave me what I was aiming at, the "sweet apology" and a "flower". Just shows how nice you are. Thanks thousand times and I was never offended honestly. Anyone who read what you wrote could tell you were joking dear. Xiin, thanks saxib.

Blessed, My ex-boss was actually a female and was extra nice, gave me good reviews every quarter and best raise among peers. Anything less would be uncivilized on your part should I become your assistant Looks like I am done for now in this thread as only females are around. Feels a little odd to be seen amid only-women gathering. Take Care Blessed.

nameless-chick Fair enough. Thanks for being understanding. Much respect to you abaayo. Scarlet. That as well Blessed. That is a good point really. I should have made that one to win some hearts and minds in these hostile territory. Yea, and I knew what you meant sis but wanted to make you talk. If I haven't pushed you a little, you wouldn't have come back with a good point would you? Thanks.

Life revolves around men and women alike Blessed One. You know that already.

nameless-chick, of course, your husband will cook for you, but at some point of time, you will have to learn from him if you don't know how to cook so that in the event of him being tied outside home and you choose otherwise(stay-home mom), he doesn't have to come home from work and at the same time cook for the entire family. That would be unfair don't you think? You may like and prefer cleaning over cooking which is fine, but conditions will twist your arm to learn a trade you don't like to accomodate the needs of your family. So you better start learning right now than wait to burden your farax ya know. I know couple of oh-me-so-educated girls who were lazy when they stayed with their families and hardly cooked for hooyo but became best cooks when they met mr.perfect before they even got married to the guy. How sweet Does that answer your question nameless-chick? Scarlet. I know how to cook I also know your smile was misleading one, cooking is not beneath men but girls have to learn how to cook.

The answer is simply no. When a girl is single and staying with parents(probably in her teen years), she may have some excuse like having siblings who cook for the family instead of her. But as the girl leaves the comfort of her own family and becomes a wife, and eventually a mother, knowing how to cook is not only important but a must. For the sake of her own kids if not for anyone else.

Xiin Why don't you share what surprised you saxib Were you taken aback by how Amelia dismissed me as an utter rubbish? lool. It was nothing personal. Pi's quote is funny I agree. I don't know which is funnier, Xoogsade quoted or Pi's sense of humour laughing still lol. I already like young Pi. Never had anyone carry my name around the forum like that. Sheherazade. FGM is sort of embarrassment and a practice inherited from animist religions. That much is agreed upon. The question is, how do you achieve change in the community and where do you start? Not shaming Somali minnesotans of course right? What do I have to do with FGM? I don't want people ask me about it. I am not comfortable with that

Socod-Badne, I have been following this for quite a while. Did some reading on the many subjects touched in here. My conclusion is, when you learn the difference between fornication and adultery, you will be able to understand how the prophet's sayings do not contradict the Quran in relation to the punishments in dispute. Rejecting the prophet's rulings is like rejecting god's command according to the Quran. Likewise, obeying the prophet in his prophetic decrees is like obeying Allah as Allah informs muslims in the Quran "4:80, {Whoever obeys the Messenger, he thereby surely has obeyed Allah...} So you see saxib, according to that verse, if you obeyed the messenger in any decree, it is like you obeyed Allah's command as the propeht was sent by him and wouldn't utter religious edicts out of his own pocket. If you are a muslim, you can't work around what the prophet has said and claim you are confined to the Quran. Iit is like saying you acept the first part of the Shahada and the second part is irrelevant. The absurdity of such position doesn't require much refutation but Allah tells every muslim in the Quran: 33:36, {It is not for a believing man nor a believing women, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, to have the choice in their affair; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has surely gone astray in manifest error.} Socod Badnoow, you can't say you follow the Quran and reject prophet mohamed's rulings on Adultery. One can minimalize the importance of Hadith to reject certain things they claim they disagree with, however, all such individuals are doing is rejecting the faith without knowing it. Bottomline: 3:31-32, {Say: If you love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger. But if they turn away, surely Allah does not love the disbelievers.} "But no, by your Lord, they can have no real faith until they make you judge in all disputes between them and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions but accept them with the fullest conviction."[An-Nisa: 65] Wow saxib!!! if that doesn't cut it for you, Adigaa cirka roobka ku og. As difficult as certain rulings seem to be to me personally, I accept the wisdom of Allah and his messenger's rulings. Perhaps Adultery is such a big sin and causes sucha social ill that people are dissuaded from it by making the punishment severe. Humility and knowing your limitations are important as they enable one to learn what he/she doesn't know. Once you operate under the premise that you are right and everyone else is wrong, you are in utter misguidance. PS: I read many articles about the important of the prophet's sayings and how it is an obligation on every muslim to accept his rulings. My ideas are directly from those resources. I hate to appear to have spent time in a mosque enough to be educated about certain issues of islam. And I am saying this to avoid people assuming I know anything about islam. My apologies to the learned forumers.

Sheherazade, Thanks for the picture and the history lesson. Cid ka maad tagin. Lol. U sure tip-toe your way around women. Thanks. Nah, I do really admire the way many write here including some of the guys. My comment was to express that but not to tip-toe around women which I am not good at doing. I am not gifted in writing so it makes sense for me to admire others who are and hope I could write like them someday PS: I don't understand women most often and miscomunicate with them. I was given up on. Thanks for the info again. Didn't have time to reply sooner.

Amelia(intentionally mentioning your name), you asked me a question and I replied to that with an explanation. I pointed out to you why I was frustrated with the likes of Socod-Badne and every word I said subsequently relates If people are concerned about certain issues, and they want to correct/rectify that, there is a way to do it. No one is entitled to insult our intellect when they are probably at the bottom. Pi, thanks bro. lol at roll over in agreement, couldn't have said it better. Thanks again. Normally women harrass guys they like. Amelia is no exception.

Amelia, no, you have no part in that and my post is directed towards people who fit the profile whether it is Socod-badne, Ayan Hirsi and the likes. Now, do you have anything to say about the messy points I raised? I do enjoy writing like a somali. Nothing could go wrong with that. Plus touching issues related to the subject at hand is not an offense.

Amelia, To explain why I sounded pissed, The endless negative comments about somalis has gotten to me. I can relate to a brotherly love which is complex emotion and I am willing to give everyone who loves to write much drivel about somalis the benefit of the doubt assuming they are concerned and want to bring about positive change. However, I found SB's indictment of somalis(in the last part of his comments) to be contemptuous. Do you believe we suffer from pervasive ineptness as a community? And it doesn't help the fact that It has become the norm for every spiritually lacking somali to opportunistically place themselves in the light seeking attention at the expense of the somali communities. Minnesota could be like Holland, Norway and Denmark and the immigrant somali communities can easily become the target of the media because of some people who feel no affinity to somalis though they look somali and speak somali. Every sensible community welcomes change, but individuals advocating for that change have to show they first care and have put much thought into their method of communication, who they are targetting with their message and avoid any negative outfalls that can actually hurt their own communities.

Socod-Badne Why don't you go jump off a bridge? That will save you from living an embittered life and in self-hate. And please, don't you dare come back and tell me you are for the refinement and purification of somali social ills when you are part of their shame. You are more deserving and epitomize most of what you listed in your post. Amelia Wave you are on a roll. I wonder!

Sheherazade, in case you haven't figured out, somalis buy the same cars, almost the same clothes, the same everything just because one of them has bought first the thing and each one of them has to have what that somali person has. Open a dukaan and everyone else will, open halal market and everyone else will etc. There goes the reason I bought the One Man Show, cause, every body had it and it smelled good before at the the time. So I kept the tradition of being typical ya know. LOL.

Come to think of it, saxib Jimcaale, that was the last perfume I had recently. We are just too predictable aren't we?