Mmmkay, humble. You seem a little nervous, a break?

Quite the idjit, wasn't she? Why would you shout at people through e-mail when you can do it in person and leave no records.

Humble, your member number is familiar. Refresh my memory, won't you?

"It's a tiny minority of woman here who want this new law; the intellectuals. The poor and illiterate women of this country, the real Muslims , are against it." Hmm. It seems that real muslims are ones who can't read the Quran.

^ Seeker, I think Medicare/Medicaid are the only reason the US healthcare system is actually working. It covers the old and the poor while the insurance industry has legions of business suits working day and night on algorithms that exclude most others from care. I'm not certain what criteria you're writing about, but necessary procedures are covered under a public health system. Some elective surgeries or those that can wait (e.g. knee replacement) have to be rationed. I can't think of any public system that can function without some rationing. The wait time issue is largely a scare tactic to frighten US citizens, I think. I'm sure that under a private insurance plan, you must wait for specialists and even MBAs at the insurance company to approve treatment. Public systems have their problems, without a doubt, but the US system, to me, is unfathomable and quite barbaric.

For a healthcare system to be sustainable, it has to be non-profit and its focus on preventive and low-cost care. The US system is the opposite of this. No matter how you slice it, it will cover fewer and fewer people to protect investor profits. Most healthcare systems will face financial trouble, especially with aging societies, in the next few decades unless there are larger societal changes to eating/exercising/en vironmental pollution. The US system is in shambles now. People coming from all over the world are the select few who can afford it. A healthcare system is concerned with covering everyone at an affordable cost. I've lived in 2 countries with public-funded systems and could freely choose my doctors in both.

I have always assumed that organic food was not about what it contains but what it does not, such as pesticides, growth hormones, and antibiotics. This sounds like some industry protectionism.

Che, samir iyo iimaan, walaal. Allah u naxariisto.

Cara, who are you calling an old crone? :mad: LOL, I actually remember Eldon's death and the big hoopla of the Western media. I'm not surprised someone with Radcliffe's clout would be attracted to that post-teen foolish bravado. Freelance journalists in 90s war zones are reminders of the young cadaan aid workers of the 70s and 80s in their 4X4s, roaming Africa, teaching blacks to fish with their liberal arts degrees.

Nur walaal, how have you been? I will reread your post and let you know although I worry that we have a fundamental disagreement over the basics.

I don't know what the Germans have to do to appear in one of these Most Racist lists. And let's not compare the great Achebe to that incoherent impostor, Joseph Conrad.

Dan Eldon was a foolish young guy who belonged to a foolish fraternity of eager journalists (trained or wannabes) who travel into war zones, hoping to capture that Pulitzer worthy image to open the world of newsmaking to their 22 or 25 year old selves. Eldon was killed by a Mogadishu 'mob' (can't see how they can avoid another Black Hawk fiasco). When I do see a war paparazzi's image of horror, I gawk like millions of people everywhere. Remember that picture of a vulture hovering over a dying kid? Having said all that, I wouldn't mind being in Radcliffe's flick. I promise not to stare at the camera with my buck-toothed smile of the absurd.

The man showed 2 pieces of ID according to the Boston police report. The police officer's massive ego wouldn't let him leave the house and he arrested the Professor on the charge of disruption and speaking 'loudly'. If Gates was white and this misunderstanding had happened, he would get a 'sorry' and 'have a good night, sir'. But a black man has to be put in his place by the 28 year old cop who thinks that yelling in your own home is a crime worthy of arrest. Please.

Did you see his father promoting a new record company 2 days after his death? If you ask me, MJ was lucky to die now and get away from that monster.

Sarkozy is xenophobic and no doubt energized by Europe's growing tolerance of racist and hateful political movements. I don't see why he would concern himself with what a few hundred women in a sea of millions are wearing when his country touts personal freedom. The French have been hyperventilating for years now, ever since the official numbers of Muslims and their reproduction rates were advertised. They know they are being outbred and will have democratic principles used against them in a few generations. Other than that, what utter nonsense this burqa/niqab business is.

It's a damn shame, ilaahey ha u naxariisto. Seemed like such a tortured soul. Beat It will be forever THE song.

A dirac with a belt makes a young Somali woman look like an old Afghani man. Lily, that dress is lovely, very Angelina Jolie in France. Anybody know what the haircut trend is nowadays? I'm sick of channeling summer 1997.

Amna, I'm sending you a prayer, sister.

Nothing wrong with a couple of fat, middle-aged people having se*xy time on the beach... Their moves are kinda cool, actually: 1. Cha cha 2. Left leg, right leg 3. Hip swivel 4. Crotch sniff 5. And repeat

You haven’t substantiated your association of democracy with shirk, walaal. And I think you should be careful mixing concepts and ideas. The Ayah that you often recite (wala yushrik fi xukmihi…And he does not share in his rule/wisdom/commandments) does not relate directly to politics as it is seen in a society. The xukm of God does not mean the presidency of a nation or the head of a tribe. There are direct relations between certain axkam of God (death penalty, inheritance) and their adherents. But a great many are not in the public sphere. And we are talking about a public, shared, sphere here and its management and not the strength of an individual’s adherence to Islam. Unless someone claims to be hearing God’s instructions (like Moses), the only system you can have is run entirely by fallible people. It seems as though we don’t differ on the actual guidance of the Quran in civil/legal affairs but we differ on who decides the human affairs that are in the murky areas or are completely untouched. And I think we are both aware of the word ‘religion’ and its wide understanding. Deen and religion, despite their differences in translation, are understood to mean a faith embraced by some. I don’t think that is a point of contention here. People can and do govern themselves. The democratic process is but a tool in this governance. Despite the numerous legislative challenges in multi-religious societies, the principles upon which laws are based depend largely on a society’s worldview/religion/deen. The failures that are sighted in the democratic process are often human failures of greed, power-mongering, and interest protection. These are responsible for sham democracies that are really corporatocracies like the one in the US. And I believe they would exist in the most ardent theocracy or the Islamic version of an ecclesiocracy. If you reread my post, you’ll see that I thought points 2-4 lacked substance and these are partially my reasons for thinking so: Point #2: Supporting something with millions/billions of dollars does not make it a religion to be embraced. Public education, universal healthcare, research and a myriad of human endeavours are costly and have their staunch supporters. These endeavours are no more a religion than democracy is, despite its numerous failings. Point #3: Your third point states that ‘people have no power’. I don’t understand what you mean by this. What power are you referring to? If it is the power to create the heavens and earth, then no. If it is the power to mete justice, move wealth, build civilizations, destroy the other, among a myriad of other things, then people do have power. Point #4: Your final point of democracy being ‘archaic’: the ayah you’ve referenced does not apply. The names/titles that are invoked are those of idols that were worshipped by the non-believers. I cannot prove that it is not a ‘false notion’; the burden of proof is on you who made the claim. I understand that you’ve made a sweeping, dramatic proclamation, Nur, but you will need strong evidence to justify your association of democracy with shirk, the most grave of charge. And you have not stated your reasoning behind the placement of quotes around the word ‘muslim’.

Nur, The problem with comparing a system of governance and a religion is that you are not really comparing similar things. We’ve gone into a previous lengthy discussion (that went nowhere, unfortunately) about the concept of shura within Islam and the main principle of voting behind democracy. Those two may have been close enough to compare, but even that needed the discussion to advance had we not differed on the definition/applicability of shura. For now, perhaps we can skip this juncture for a later attempt and consider your latest assertion that democracy is somehow akin to idol worship. Your primary support for this is that giving people the power to develop laws is an affront to God’s supremacy over human-governing laws, as you've written. Am I correct? Let’s examine your first support for this assertion as I find points 2 through 4 to be highly jumbled and weak on substance, though they seem to be based on passionate belief. “Democracy challenges Allah's power on regulating people's affairs, so it practically sets itself as a God.” How does the democratic process do this? More importantly, how does Allah regulate people’s affairs without people on the ground executing them? From what I understand of your Islamic ideal of governance, there are layers of executives and figures of authority who are versed in Islamic law and who write all legislation. You also believe that some of these figures are chosen by the people. I’m not certain how this is different from the democratic principle of electing governing officials. If it is the matter of laws written by man, that is certainly inevitable given the wide range if interpretations present in muslim societies. If members of a society hold similar beliefs, wouldn’t their choice of elected officials and adopted laws largely reflect that? Juts like I put quotes around "Terrorists" which you have never asked me why The reason I had never questioned your placement of quotes around the word terrorist is that I understood it to express your disagreement with its use in much of today’s media. Surely you don’t mean to say that a muslim who does not see democracy as shirk is somehow a dubious muslim or a non-muslim altogether? If yes, you would not be the first to remove people with whom you disagree from the folds of Islam.

A&T, ‘dare not’ miyaa the story ? And who called you filth?! It wasn’t me, that’s certain. Listen, respect begets respect and your earlier posts will show you who is insulting whom. But in the spirit of communicating old-school-nomad style of gabay and mah-mah, here is my modest contribution: caruur caruur aan lala ciyarin baa jira. In fairness to you, my presence in your thread is not only unwanted by you but by me as well. There are many instances where I enjoy a good verbal spar, but I prefer to do it willingly and without the presence of mysterious undertones or proxy, albeit good-natured, tangles. Xiin's halqabsi may have been better served by someone who can actually understand it and engage it, though he’s been kind enough to clarify.

Originally posted by Abtigiis &Tolka: Shall we, therefore, conclude that despite the harsh manner in which you said it, you are willing to stay off this matter and that you have in a way heeded my advice? A&T, if you want threads where people can't comment, start a forum and delete as necessary. You obviously hunt for shocked applause in every post but please don't do it at the expense of my avatar, it makes you seem deeply inadequate.

Nur, yes, this is a good spot to continue our previous discussion. I will be back tomorrow for a detailed response, walaal. P.S. The above quotes from the old thread are from Malika, not me.

^ The battle is only in your head, and Xiin is far more dignified a man than you. Listen, the gallery is already enamored with your stories, and as with a dutiful train wreck, cannot avert their eyes. I see my weak Somali confession has you levitating off your seat for some rhyming vomit. You shall hear neither clothes ripping nor complaints & cries for a moderator from me. But I advise you to avert your poison off my avatar because you know me not to be young, aloof or disciplined.