Northerner, nice try. You say there is no proof that some of the Khalifs were just but fail to give us anything on whether they were not. What is this? Selective inclination? Again, doesn’t hold much weight. I would suggest that you consult with some primary sources (if able in Arabic), or even Wikipedia. Research names including Mu'awiah and Yazid and Haggag and Saeed Ibn El-Aas and those are in the first decades following the death of the nabi(csw) and only in the Ummayad empire. For some of these khalifas and their henchmen, it is not about justice but mass killings. It's absurd to claim that these men were beyond reproach simply because of their proximity to the revelation or else we walk into the dangerous territory of deifying people who have all human faults of power-hunger and greed. No one can claim that they committed crimes of injustice as a group; similarly, no can can make carpet claims like an earlier fellow screaming about few minor errors committed by them as group. Why is this even an issue if it were not for a nostalgic cry for a better time? The people who lived then would say otherwise. Any historical analysis takes the individual, examines their decisions and actions in light of the political and social times and avoids passing judgments with today's standards. Furthermore, I said a secular enovironemnt CAN be the best environment for a believer as it affords freedom of worship. Millions of muslims in the Western world can attest to that. They will never be completely just and human rights laws have a long way to go, for muslims and nonmuslims alike. Are you going to tell that to Muslim schoolgirls in France/Turkey who cannot practice their faith due to the very same secular laws you are advocating for? These laws are opposed by many, including nonmuslims, as they trample on human rights. They are changeable (as a future politician lusting after the large muslim vote will tell you), open to protests and can be overturned through civil rights suits. What about the Muslim woman divorcees who have to fight in secular courts to get what they should be entitled to when Islam and Sharia gave them those rights as soon they got married? Islam and sharia do not give rights, people and courts do. Are you referring to Muslim women in the Western world or in the Muslim world? As someone who follows civic/personal rights issues in the Arab world, it is enlightening to glance at court cases in some Muslim countries with constitutions deferring to the faith. In Egypt alone, thousands are denied their financial and custody rights in exchange for a divorce. Sure, the usual wails about Muslim law being tainted by Muslims will arise. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. When someone cannot feed him or herself, they are forced into begging and/or prostitution and/or petty crime. Human dignity is the first to go in every situation of civil and economic collapse, and there are always vultures and lords of war to benefit. Would such terrible exploitation of human misery be allowed to go unchecked and unpunished under an Islamist administration ? Lower your anti-ICU shield for a minute and blurt it out: No, not a snowball's chance in hell, too. Forced prostitution and droves of civilians living under the guns of gangs would not go unchecked and unpunished in any civilized society. Civil laws protect the weak. The ICU, despite its deficiencies and some criminal elements, made a serious attempt to start building Mogadishu. To allow peace to reign and prosperity to surely follow. They brought hope when hope was lost for 16 years. If they were left alone without Ethiopia and America's filthy hands, Yeey and the other dirty, gap-toothed beast would not be decimating the people again.

^^^Oh my! *Blushes furiously* I must then reciprocate and respond to the ruggedly handsome Faarax-Brown. They are past and present that affect the future, it’s a continuing call that was always preached by ALL ULAMAS of every color in every geographical area to ALL demographics. Very spirited and inspirational! The new call or sahwa is not my word but those of numerous religious groups and parties. I see little new in it as it largely clothes old ideas in new clothes. Doubting the justness of the Caliphas is of course tantamout to doubting the prophet,which of course means doubting the message itself. That's what you say and does not make it the truth. Tantamount is one of those expansive terms, large enough to twist someone's words and scary enough to suffocate a discussion. OK,I think you either have no clue of your subject matter or you are hell bent on triviliazing the caliphate dynasty. Before I comment on this statement, I will like for you to first find out the jurisdiction of the caliphas................that will give you an insight & hopefully save me some much needed time. [/QB] Not one to miss a chance to be schooled by a Faarax and a Brown one at that, I will say go ahead and save the time now in this case. Highlighting my ignorance may very well be valid but will not mask your own of the subject. Your admiration of the dynasty's size, wealth and scope of influence is noted. What this has to do with the faith and modern day sharia application remains a mystery.

Xiinfaniin, we disagree on whether secularity and religions fit as I believe a so-called secular environment can be the best environment for a believer. We probably also disagree on what I see as an unnecessarily nostalgic examination of past Islamic rule that was largely a function of interests and politiking, much like it is now. I do agree with you that pursuing ideal principles made just treatment possible in the past. If accountability and justice are the goals of a muslim ruler and his government today, then muslims would indeed be staying true to the goals and ideals of the message. There is no issue with sharia being ruled by people who elect to be ruled by it. The issue largely remains one of what constitutes islamic law and who decides that a particular law is 'serving the masses by serving Allah'.

This relegation of history to 'conventional wisdom' with only ethereal gains is not just deluded, but wrong and troubling. CG, what is even more troubling is the number of young people reared and bred in so-called secular laws handing over their brain to these new calls for a return to the past. Impoverished and hopeless youth in the muslim world, their future cannibalized by a parasitic upperclass, are rightly drawn to this utopic return of a khalifa who will do justice by them. How the wealthy, western-bred ones subscribe to this is a mystery. There is no proof that those termed khalifas (a political position that has nothing to do with the faith) or sahabas were any more just as a group than others who are nonkhalifa/nonsahaba. Save for a few direct laws (mostly concerned with personal/civic rights such as marriage, divorce, inheritance), there is no reason to believe that what is termed sharia as a whole is a God ordained system of governace. Northerner claims that there is no nation is currently fully applying Sharia law . A question would be what is stopping them? The books are there, the muftis and their majlis are there, and the military resources are there as well. Why isn't the KSA enforcing this full version after 1400 years of practice? If the courts forcing this woman to remain Muslim by name are following the sharia, then their brand of sharia is not following the quran as it gives freedom of belief. Corollaries and exceptions imagined by religious writers over the centuries, notwithstanding. She chooses not to be a muslim any longer and does not want muslim laws to apply to her. If she is transgressing by so doing, then she's not transgressing against the Malay courts or the 80 youth groups because as the quran says again, people only take responsibility for their sins.

^^ JB, it's not so much their drive but loyalty to their funders. I look forward to a time when oil money is no more and does not fund these types of groups in nations from Yemen to Malaysia. Big-bellied millionaires simultaneously fund youth groups and religious satellite stations while releasing pop records. In the 1940s, a man released a book in Egypt explaining why he is an atheist. Al Azhar released a rebuttal book titled "Why I am a muslim". Not much chance of that happening nowadays. Originally posted by Northerner: b) Being governed by civil law and not Sheria 'is' an issue as all should be governed by the Sheria in the first place( incl non muslims ). How is that?

"By doing this openly, she is encouraging others to do the same. It may open the floodgates to other Muslims, because once it is a precedent, it becomes an option." Wow, so Islam as a faith is such a noxious state, laws must be erected to keep people in it or else they will leave in droves. Any law that forces someone to believe outwardly in a religion is one tainting it. This option of not believing anymore is not granted by courts or youth groups but by the book itself. The ignorance is suffocating.

African students seem to be catching a break from the beatings and murders. The Nazis have another group to kick around for a bit and will no doubt go back to gang beating immigrants.

Dear fat Cara, ^^Please. I'm voluptuous ......The next time a film I star in goes direct to DVD he's gone I tell ya. :mad: Anything you can do Amitab's mama can do better I can do anything Better than you With out further adue, you will be casting Shrek Four, as a female donkey who falls in love with Eddie Murphy character (the donkey). Oh no! Oh no! You ain't that mutha.... :mad: . Zafir, Cara is right. You're way overdue for an overdose. Now git and do the damn thing!

^ Feng Shui ?? Psshhhtt *kisses her teeth*. Nothin' like a has-been hussy who still thinks she's the schtick :rolleyes: . I bet you got the fancy trailer before you started to get fat in all the wrong places. Originally posted by Zafir: This was going to be a surprise, but now that you twisted my arm, I will twist a whole lot more than your scrawny arm, Amitabh my foot, that muthaclucker is 93 years old. I will play no one's mother till you offer me what you offer fat Cara.

^ So it's like that, huh? A girl gets a couple of grays on her head and a couple of dimples on her thighs and the sleaze bag agent drops her like tapered pants :mad: :rolleyes: . Zaylici, nobody who works for a living is likely to travel with a theater group. I would try college students itching to take a semester (or a lifetime ?) off school.

^ Congratulations on the impending parenthood, may it be joyful. What makes Mohamed (or any of the other names on the list) Islamic?

Amr Khaled may just be remembered not only as an antidote to terror but a general anaesthetic for an entire generation of hopeless Arab and muslim youth. Funny how his fabricated story about being out of favour with Egypt's powers is seeping bit by bit. Young men his age who are disliked by the establishment fill prisons, detention camps, and graves by the tens of thousands. Puuleeeze! He is the darling of the rich, a gigolo for the powerful, presidents of poor/restless nations or heads of TV stations. Mr. Khaled seldom preaches against robbed resources and rampant corruption but urges Arab youth to open small businesses and clear dusty roof tops. He speaks not of political oppression and stolen futures but pushes the young into the past, deifying very ordinary people who lived at the time of the revelation. I suppose he is offering them something, the past is at least assured (no matter how fabricated) and no one, not even energy-hungry Western nations, can rob them of that. Personally, I like the man. He is very likable. Funny, great story teller, intelligent, and ambitious. I do admire him for preaching the value of hard work.

Nur, Could you reference the text? Also, how do you compare this 'savage' war over black gold (an assumption about oil) to equally savage wars over the history of humanity for gold (the real one), slaves and diamonds to mention a few? I don't really know about an end of time but I think the next wave of savagery will most likely be about water.

Khalaf, The message is clear but the contention is that the initial tale contains a detail (regarding 'jannat' and 'haram') that is not supported by the 2 Quranic verses above and others. Earlier mentions of orders of verses and 'succession' (not in favour now) were interesting but not included in your long post.

Tell him that you've booked a flight to Abidjan and he and his sister should meet you at the bank.

Walaikum Khalaf, So what did you mean by 'succedeed by' in your earlier post? Of the belief in the message of Mohammed (pbuh) and the Islam of 3:58, which one succeeds the other in your opinion?

My dear umu zakaria, islamicizing everything from products to pop culture to science is a mark of our intellectual bankruptcy. There are many reasons to reject something without gluing it by force to the faith and giving fatwa-authors such deep and pervasive say in everything. This bid'a claim would mean that you must immediately cease and desist with posting on SOL using the internet and a computer. what is going on in ur head? Lately? The 80s. I can't get headbands, Cabbage Patch kids and Boy George's shoulder pads out of my head. Very disturbing!

^ .

Salam Khalaf, But about the ayats of 2:62 n 5:69, the order of those verses was succedeed by the verse 3:85. Explain, please. It is obligatory to believe in Nabi Scw. And all the other prophets and messengers but that is not what the 2 verses (and 3.85) are pointing towards.

Islamic opinions dispensed as fatwas (the above being a load of rubbish) cannot be the only language of discourse. Disgusting commercialism aside, celebrating your mother, no matter how it's done cannot be a bad thing. One need not buy a card from Hallmark or a gift; but for many a fool who does not think or remember his/her mother as often as he/she should, a nudge is sometimes needed.

Originally posted by Abdi_Xaafid: "Don't worry, o RasulAllah. I heard ALLAH say: 'I make Jannat haram for every one, only the people of Muhammad are inside it,' " How do you reconcile this detail of the tale with 2:62 or 5:69?

Judging from the posts in the last few months, it ought to be scrapped altogether in favour of a Lifestyles section. There are a few interesting health and fashion threads that pop up once in a while and make you want to contribute, but the rest scream late-teen anxieties and are filled with chat type one-liners. A Lifestyles section could (and should) be open to both genders' health/fashion/relationship concerns since the guys walk in with their dusty little feet into every thread anyway.

The video looks fake, too much back jumping and jarring editing. Saudi media & newspapers wrote nothing of the death although there was a death reported of a 23-year old Egyptian soccer player on the field. It was thought to be an undiagnosed heart condition.

Originally posted by gavin: There seems to be a tremendous amount of unrest lately as groups try to erect a governmental structure over the Somalis, who in turn seem to (possibly) instinctively reject the new government. Very libertarian. Not really. Somalis are rejecting a tribal and genocidal rule propped by outside interest and decidedly American support and approval. No one instinctively rejects peace, prosperity and effective administration. That would be the prime responsibility of an effective government and Somalis, like all the people of the world, would welcome it. That is not the hope on the ground and hasn't been in more than 40 years.