Bismillah, Aillamos, sxb looking forward to your definitions. Burahadeer, sxb 2 questions; 1. Did you write the above article yourself or did u imported from another source? 2. What exactly does the experience of the Iranian revolution get to do with the content of this thread? *fiew points to keep in point i. The shah regime was SECULAR total tyranical-paranoid-police state. ii.The shah regime was deeply unpopular by the vast majority of the population. Its extremly pro western, elitest and out of touch. iii. Most importantly it was undemocratic, dictatorship. Infact, shah government was illegal in the sense that it was a foriegn (CIA) installed entity. iv. Musadaq's democraticley elected government was toppled precisely.

Bismillah, So the title of the thread was 'Secular Somali State' but its agreed that some how we have got our selves into a bit of entangelment, which resulted in confusion and insult exchanging contest. I suggest we focus back on the point of the discussion. Ailamos, since you are the father of this popular debate, would you please kindly provide us with your definition of'the terms; Secular, Secularism, Sharia and State? ---> towards a better understanding.

Bismillah, first of all, no disrespect but the 2 above posters have completly missed the point with their antics!! One of you (burahadeer)through their ignorence of the Islamic religion and the reasons for the laws of the sharia is rampaging about 'inequality' of the inheritance laws between the sexes!! have ever read the quran and hadiths with regard to this matter and the reasons for its sanctioning? ------your percieved injustice is A CONTRADICTION to the essence of Islam, which is justice (to Allah, to oneself and to others)----- (the best you could do for your childeren if you TRUELY love them and care for them is to expose your self and them to the religion of Allah and teach your self and them the book of Allah, for surely that is the greatest inheritance of all, for them and for you) While the other (layzie) is running wildly with his own misinfalted ego and calling people 'faitheads' and 'Sarah Palins' to my mind this was a discussion of a subject and not a personal attack on people!!! If you can not present a coherent argument in support of your point then it renders responding to you as really pointless. Lazie, your accusations with regard to my ignorence of history (is pure presumption from you) and leaves much to be desired. It is impressive how you diverted your attention from the outragious consequences of the near recent slavery and colonialism which were SINGLE HANDEDLY caused by your the leaders of the so called 'enlightenment' 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. The prevalence of godless theory of evolution and social darwinism which coincided with the rise of secularsim have directly led to the mental and physical annihilation of many. many millions of people by others who felt (and many still do) to be more evolved and more man. to be continued.. ........i am in hurry but InshaAllah i shall come back.

Bismillah, LAZIE, yes,its exactly a gross generalization to claim asylum seekers shout the loudest for Sharia law. There are people who are not asylum seekers (e;g because they live in their birth countries) who shout even louder for the Sharia. There are also those who are economic migrants, others who were oppressed by secular regimes and there are also those who shout extremely loudly for Sharia Law wherever they may be. why? because, THEY HAVE FAITH IN ALLAH AND HIS RELIGION AND THEREFORE KNOW FOR CERTAINTITY THAT ALLAH'S DEVINE LAW IS UNCOMPROMISINGLY SUPERIOR TO ANY MAN MADE TEMPORAL/IN-COMPREHENSIVE CONCOCTION, REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER ITS TEMPORAL POPULARITY/SUCCES MAYBE. Its, however, fully understandible for an atheist to not comprehend the commitment that Muslims have for the application of Sharia Law... BECAUSE ITS MATTER OF CONVICTION.... you are not convinced by the divine nature of this law and we are. Therefore, regardless of wherever a devoute muslim may be and regardless of the circumstances that got them at that specific place, rest assured that they remain committed to Allah's law over whatever the envogue ideology maybe at the time. It is an indisputable fact that Muslims throughout the world are largely impoverished directly or indirectly by the foreign policies that are carried out by your 'enlightent' secular atheistic countries. This is what drives them to immigrate in order to order to gain a little from their enemies capture. At the same time often times these same muslims grow deeper in their faith and grow in disdain of the decadence and shallowness of their hosts. They live under an immoral system but yearn for the day when Allah's law reigns supreme somewhere/anywhere. BTW: What moral high ground can a system that inspires to dominate, plunder and impoverish other societies possible claim?? How can you deny the legacy of slavery, colonialism and profound racism that is the direct fruit of this system? How can you advocate for a corrupt man made system that is constantly shifting its goal posts and its ready to revoke at any moment its much praised so called 'civil liberties' at the very slightest threat?? Its of wisdom not to throw rocks at peoples houses when your own is made of glass. Certainly, this system leaves much to be desired.

Bismillah, Ailamos i cammand you for correting the gross generalisations made raamsade

Bismilah, Cara, thanx for the reply. Putting aside the 'controversy of the theory organic evolution aside' for a minute. Is the above comment your only understanding of the laws of quantum mechamics and their paradigm shifting implications?

Bismillah, Thnx Cara. Point taken with regard to the time of the cell discoverey being before darwin. 1. However, the full complexity displayed by the living cell, on the otherhand (which is what i intended), was NOT known in Darwins day. This simply was because of the rumdimentary nature of the microscopic technology of the day. Today's cellular knowledge reveals a mind buggling organised 'system' at work within the scope of this infinitesimally small entity we call the 'cell body'. The workings of a single cell has been compared to the functioning of a fully fledged metropolous. The above mentioned complexity makes the idea of accidents that lead to 'natural' selection HIGHLY DUBIOUS AND QUESTIONABLE. Further, among the primary components of the cell it self is the PROTEIN molecule and here we reach another milestone. To my knowledge NO protein has ever been produced in any lab any where. This is for a VERY GOOD REASON protein can not be accidently/spontaneouslly manufactured from nothing. Since its impossible to have even a single protein molecule arisen accidently/blindly/intellegently from NOTHING, then it renders the whole idea of the development of the CELL thereafter with the mentioned immense complexity TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE. Why then bounce into a whole new AREA OF TOTAL IMPOSSIBILITIES - by jumping into the idea of whales mutating into polar bears and Dinasours through (a meticlous/progressive) process of trial and error learning to develop wings (!!!) and flying up high in the sky???? ---put a side this crazy speudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo-hoax pox business and EMPLOY A COMMON SENSE!!---- finally, we are happy to refer to quantum mechanics. It supports our belief that matter is not ALL that there is and indeed there is more the UNIVERSE then what is concieved or possibley measured with the naked eye, microscope, telescope or any other visual scope. which renders the old idea of 'show me and i'll believe' totally SO OUT OF DATE. There are dimensions beyound our comprehension and that is A REAL SCIENTIFIC FACT. O Allah grant me serenity, patience and the wisdom to know the difference. May peace & blessings be upon the Chosen (saw)

In the name of Allah the most Magnificient. It is quite incredible how some people congratulate themselves on a so called 'open & shut case'. Nothing from what i read here amounts at all close to open & shut debate. Its very easy to go and copy & paste blindly from the most dubious of sources, just because they are of 'evolutionery orientation'. The idea of Evolution of species as introduced by Darwin was/is the product of its time. I wonder what would have he made of the cell, the DNA and quantum physics theory that challenges our whole understanding of the nature of matter/energy (which all came way after him)? The idea of spontaneous/ undesigned (yet some how intellegent & efficient to know the best possible outcome for any mutation) is at best deeply embaressing in this day and age and at worst an outright madness cloaked in the unholly cover of 'science'. Quating left and right from the most ambigous of sources will i am afraid not help in advancing real and contemplative scientific enquiry. Far from being over the inquiry for the truth hasn't even started from the side of The blind evolution extremists. I bare witness in the Miraclous nature of Allah's creation, and I bare witness in the truthfulness message of His Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). I also bare witness the deceit and lies as perpetuated by the oft-misguided feeble minds.

Bismillah and blessings be upon His Chosen (swt). Ailamos, many thnx for an stimulating thread. Indeed, it's most wonderful to see so many somali brothers and sisters by in large debating in such energetic/passionate manner. Just quick points from me; 1. The issue of definations has not been resolved, i.e; do we mean secularism as merely the ''seperation between the church and the state'' or is there more to that terminology? 2. Ofcourse it goes without saying that, 'secualrism' at least in its above definition arose from specific cultural and historical background. i;e, from european post reformation society where the church was throughly corrupt, oppressive and stifling to progress of any form. (by the way the leaders of the Protestant Reformation namely Martin luther, Klein etc were students of islamic works. Islamic theology greatly influenced their thinking. Therefore, the one who says Islam needs a reformation - should understand that indeed IT was and stiill IS the original reformation of the previous/older religions) 3. its indeed fully understandible that populations became hostile to Christianity/Church i;e it regressively meddling in their affairs. 4. Ofcourse, one most not forget that most populations in those feudal societies had very limited rights if any (until, in the grander scale of time VERY RECENTLY). Infact, it was the ruling elite who were instigating the sidelining of the all powerful church as this meant they became free of the 'pope' imposed taxes. 5. Economic decisions have always determined the direction of any serious 'progress' towards what it is now 'hailed' as the holly grail of secualr democartic system. 6. For example slavery was supposedly abolished in its original from, because of its long term economic unsustainability (i have already noted what was said about Islam and Slavery). 7. On the otherhand, Islamic Society overall (not talking just about somalia here) had a totally different history to the west and therefore its unique problems cant be easilly solved with imported foreign solutions. other wise it will exactly a 'one size fits all' and as agreed previouslly, only clothes come in the right size. i) There never was a Church i;e: Islam theologically is completly different from the catholic Church. Thereby, by default it never had caused the populations the problems that the Church caused in its realm. Hence, the vast majority of muslims don't have a problem with the potential dominance of the SHARIA (which they believe in - wholestically anyway) ii) Muslim Scholars never took part in any oppression of the populace ( I challenge anyone to find me a viable historical proof of other wise) iii) Paradoxiclly, the ruling elite caused and STILL is causing oppression and were & are ridden with corruption, because they were & are precisely morally secualr, but crucailly paid & still pay lip service to the actualities of the faith and Allah's Sharia law. iv) Whenever, the sincere scholars were in the prominance, the Islamic society expereinced tremendous vibrancy and progree (in the Golden age for the Islamic Science - the vast majority of the BRILLIANT scientists, mathmaticians, doctors, engineers, estronomers etc were also AUTHORITIES on Islam - so no contradiction thre) v)What corrupted and is still holding back the islamic societies is precisly the prevalent ignorence of its RELIGION (complete way of life) and the lack of confidence in its self, where one is totally taken and subdued by the envogue western dominance. But, as history demonisterated too many times before CHANGE IS ALWAYS AROUND THE CORNER. Also, the victors of any particular battle usually seem the ideal of that moment (for example, had Hitler won 1945 he and his policies would have been seen as the shinning glory and the best of human achievement --- by the easilly impressed ofcourse) A great deal more could be said but i leave the floor for now. O Allah I ask thee for forgivness and sencerity - Ameen

Bismilah, When I was bordering on agnosticism/atheism and profound scepticism my logic was as follows: 1- Religion is man made 2- God is not apparent/observable and therefore non-existent/irrelevant 3- Finaly, all metaphysics and spiritual notions are highly contentious, un-scientific, irrational and harmful to human progress. For me rationality and anything that resembled pseudo-logic, pseudo scientific or any form of apparent high level mumbo-jumbo was suffice to dismiss the issues of GOD & Religion as at best dupiuous. I would quate all types of writings from the west and east so long as they by default supported my pre-determined view point.......... To cut the long story short I pontificated on the issue of religion (ISLAM) being probabley fabricated/man made, ofcourse I never gave that which I rejeted out of hand ANY SERIOUS STUDY AND CONTEMPLATION. It is quite easy to argue for something that you have little real knowledge of , but its indeed most difficult, hypocratic and no to mention unscientific to argue against something that you have NO REAL KNOWLEDGE of. Lets be honest we are here not discussing DAWKINS delusions per-se or his pseudo-scientific credentials. BUT, WE ARE INDEED DISCUSSING THE TRUTH OF ISLAM AND THAT OF ALLAH. So, intellectual honesty demands any person who is genewinly ready to critic Allah and the Islamic faith to have an excellent grasp of: the theology of Islam, The Quran, The Prophetic Hadiths, The islamic Jurisprudence and ISLAMIC HISTORY. Of course any such person will have to be master of the ARABIC language too, for otherwise he will fail to truely comprehend his subject of study. Its reasnoble to conclude that if one does not posses actual first hand information and knowledge about a particular subject (i,e Islam in this case) than this leads to one invetible falling to error with regard to the subject. More to follow inshaAllah.

Bismilah, ''Say (O Muhammad SAW): "Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds? --->"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds'' The Cave 103-104 Much Praise be to Allah who sent the unlettered Messenger (pbuh) to teach profound truth and wisdom to people who wrote and read.

Bismillah, Having read the article and the responses from the contributers, I feel almost like following the usual path of argumentation. However, I felt inspired to Qaute from the Word of The Most Supreme Creator (whom Dawkins and co - Shall most DEFINATLY meet) Its only fare to hear from his words: ''And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!'' Surat Cave 56. Alhamdulilah who created us with profound wisdom and who endowed us with a free will to believe or disbelieve. ...And I certainly pray to Allah to be risen among those that believed. Peace and blessings be upon the Pure Mercy(Mohammed). .

Reading 'Long Walk to Freedom' is a pure joy. (admitedly the book is heafty 700+ pages) but after one finishes reading this biography one is left in total reverance for the spirit, dignity and sheer moral strength of this exemplary man. Prior to reading this biography i knew of him as much as the next man (i.e; very little - except the prison) however, since finishing this book I researched more into him and into apartheid South Africa and so subsquently I am now filled with immense pride and optimism for future of such a continent that gave birth to this man.

Salaams, Often times we forget to celebrate those true legends that are still alive, and instead we like to dwell on the worst examples/models. For all those that despair about the state of our beloved Somalia and indeed about our blessed continent Mother Africa, I suggest to you to read: LONG WALK TO FREEDOM and to really get to know the character of a true african/human icon namely NELSON Rolihlahla MADELA. I bring you all glad tidings that the continent that has produced the likes of this man is by no means hopeless or God-for saken. But, it indeed is over flowing with magnificient potential. Wa salaam

"All that we have to do is just tell people ‘because God said so’ and if people frown or suggest that we are crazy, then we should tell them about submission. Because, it’s more rational to submit" A sincere believer knows and directly expereinces the positive multiplier effects that Faith impacts upon his life. Indeed, the scope of any 'scientific research' can never truely delve deeply in to this 'expereintal phenomenon'. Any attempt using metrics to quantify this expereince will inevitably fail. p;s The simplest answer is often the best answer. SWR